Israel under coordinated attack by Hamas.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

So is he saying Israel should annex the territories?  If so, do Palestinians get citizenship?  If not, what is that alternative?

I don’t think Israel will grant citizenship. If they granted citizenship to all Palestinians in the occupied territories it would add about 5.3 million Muslim voters. There are about 7.1 million Jews in all of Israel including the occupied territories. There are about 1.9 million Sunni Muslim voters who have citizenship. So the voting would be fairly even. They don’t all vote as blocs obviously but it is easy to see why Israel is afraid to do this. One of the advantages of the two-state solution for them was not losing power.

Note: I am using the total population and not the voting numbers but they should be proportionately similar.

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

This situation again validates the moral strategy advocated by Gandhi, Martin Luther King, jr., and others: non-violent non-cooperation. The Palestinians had legitimate grievances about how they have been treated by Israel. Now, that doesn't matter. Hamas is evil towards Israel and evil towards Palestinians.

I don’t think non-violent resistance would work in this case. Mostly because it hasn’t.

The reality is this was the first thing tried. After the Balfour declaration during World War I when the British announced their plan to put in a Jewish homeland and led to Jewish immigration. The Palestinians protested the incoming nation. The land was currently British occupied and conquered from the Ottoman Empire. The British (and the Entente in general) betrayed the Arabs that rose up against the Ottomans due to the promise of independent state. The resulting states didn’t materialize as promised. A LOT of Arab antagonism towards “the West” in general comes from this betrayal. History would have been very different different between the Arabs and the Western world if the British weren’t such rat bastards after the Great War.

In any case this nonviolent resistance including protests, strikes, and work stoppages objecting to the creation of a Jewish state (and to British occupation in general) was brutally repressed by the British military. Then they turned violent and in the 1930s we got the beginning of the guerilla organizations we see today. Under Israeli occupation non-violent resistance IS regularly practiced by some of the population. In the occupied territories it is defacto illegal. The right to organize and meet to even organize protests is violently repressed and results in mass arrests when tried. There are some non-violent resistors who have been jailed a dozen times or more. No one notices.

The problem is that unlike with MLK Palestinian work stoppages and strikes can’t bring the ruling class to its knees and the violence turned on MLK’s protestors shocked Americans. Israeli citizens largely ignore them. Gandhi in India had the help of a lot of geopolitical realities and that the British public weren’t living in India and most had little to lose so they could afford to criticize their own nation’s colonialism

Here is an old article I have bookmarked covering attempts at Palestinian nonviolent resistance: https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.13169/statecrime.5.1.0163?seq=1

It is not a happy story.

[bsjkki]

 

[The Nehor]

The US government wants to support Israel but the current congressional deadlock is holding things up. President Biden can (and is) using discretionary funds to provide assistance but to get access to large amounts of money requires congress to act and until the House has a new Speaker that is unlikely.

This may also cause problems in supporting Ukraine but less so as money and support has already been earmarked.

Thomas Friedman put out an interesting opinion piece on the situation and a recommended Israeli strategy and why it would be hard for Netanyahu to implement it without personal risk: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/10/opinion/israel-hamas-.html

I disagree with a few things but I think he is right about what Hamas is trying to bait Israel into doing.

Edited October 11, 2023 by The Nehor

[Calm]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

don’t think Israel will grant citizenship.

And how will they justify not giving citizenship to residents who have been there longer than the settlers?  They are changing one massive issue for another. 

[jkwilliams]

Things just hit very close to home for me. My nephew, who is in law school in California, previously served 18 months in the IDF. He has decided to leave school and return to Israel to serve at this time. I don’t blame him, but it certainly makes our family very worried. 

Prayers and good thoughts would be welcome. His name is Josh, and he’s a wonderful young man. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by jkwilliams

[Durangout]

20 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I wasn’t saying you should look away.

I am saying look at the dead Palestinians in the Gaza Strip too. They have been trapped for decades in what amounts to an open-air prison with around 50% unemployment, low quality of life, and virtually no hope of things getting better. Now their food, water, and power have been cut and bombs are dropping and threatening their families and they have no where to go. While some are innocents in this many are not but the same is true of Israel who kept those people in there. This is a horrific cycle of violence perpetuated by those in power on both sides for their own gain and it is killing their own people. Trying to divide this into good guys and bad guys doesn’t work. You can and should be horrified by all the Palestinian supporters calling for killing all the Jews but you should also be horrified by the Israelis calling for the genocide of the people in the Gaza Strip and there are quite a few of them.

To put this in perspective the American colonists revolted against the British for much much much less mistreatment.

I vehemently condemn the horrible Hamas attacks without needing to pump up bloodlust for revenge that tacitly supports war crimes. I don’t know how careful the IDF is being about civilian casualties. The fog of war is thick but the neutral reports on the ground I have seen are they are not being particularly careful. I said at the beginning of the thread that in previous conflicts Palestinian casualties are usually an order of magnitude or two higher than those Israel suffers. I expect this to be no exception unless there are some large-scale external interventions. To be clear I don’t want those external interventions to happen. I suspect it would just make things work.

Get angry. Get angry at the garbage that ordered these attacks. Get angry at the Israelis using this as propaganda to justify war crimes. Get angry at those who built this situation in the first place. Get angry at those who have perpetuated so these kinds of conflicts are inevitable.

If the Book of Mormon is for our day this conflict is the Jaredites where it is not a principled moral stance to choose Shiz or Coriantumr. A plague on them both for multiplying human misery.

When people tell you who they are believe them:

“We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly.” - Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant

Dehumanization of the enemy generally doesn’t mean there will be military restraint. God help them all. Maybe. I don’t know.

I’m sure they would agree with you.

 

https://x.com/_vishwajitpatil/status/1711959025766838346?s=46&t=hyQJp7McpQn7F-yeP7jH4Q

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Durangout said:

I’m sure they would agree with you.

 

https://x.com/_vishwajitpatil/status/1711959025766838346?s=46&t=hyQJp7McpQn7F-yeP7jH4Q

Yeah, they are definitely coming for you and me next.

What is it like to live in that kind of paranoid fear? Sounds exhausting.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Things just hit very close to home for me. My nephew, who is in law school in California, previously served 18 months in the IDF. He has decided to leave school and return to Israel to serve at this time. I don’t blame him, but it certainly makes our family very worried. 

Prayers and good thoughts would be welcome. His name is Josh, and he’s a wonderful young man. 

Israel has had recent problems with calling up reservists in protest of the current government’s judicial reforms which are not popular. There was a big spike in requests to defer service and ‘no shows’ in military call ups. Recent attacks might change this situation but it is too early to tell and Israel will try to hide any problems they are having in this area. This article talks about some of the pushback but it is from before the attacks:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-air-chief-warns-security-threat-after-judicial-reform-vote-2023-07-28/

I really hope he stays safe and wish the best.

[Raingirl]

4 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Things just hit very close to home for me. My nephew, who is in law school in California, previously served 18 months in the IDF. He has decided to leave school and return to Israel to serve at this time. I don’t blame him, but it certainly makes our family very worried. 

Prayers and good thoughts would be welcome. His name is Josh, and he’s a wonderful young man. 

I have many friends in Israel. They have shared with me many videos, photos, etc., of family members, friends, and others who immediately reported for duty. Including a man in his 80s who has served in every war since the Yom Kippur war. Civilians are supporting the soldiers, and each other, in every way imaginable. 
 

I’ll keep your nephew in my prayers. 

[rodheadlee]

Just think if Hamas would have busted into the concert and then sat down and started singing with the concert goers instead of killing them all and raping the women. Don't you think that would have had a greater effect?

[Durangout]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, they are definitely coming for you and me next.

What is it like to live in that kind of paranoid fear? Sounds exhausting.

Huh???  I did not suggest anything like what you said above.

Also, the name calling was a classy bit but typical.  I do wonder if the Israeli people are feeling a bit paranoid and fearful right now?

To clarify my post:  I’m sure that the unspeakably victimized people referenced in the link that I provided would agree with what the person posted that I quoted.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Durangout

[The Nehor]

25 minutes ago, Durangout said:

Huh???  I did not suggest anything like what you said above.

Also, the name calling was a classy bit but typical.  I do wonder if the Israeli people are feeling a bit paranoid and fearful right now?

To clarify my post:  I’m sure that the unspeakably victimized people referenced in the link that I provided would agree with what the person posted that I quoted.

I guess you didn’t even read the tweet you linked to?

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

Just think if Hamas would have busted into the concert and then sat down and started singing with the concert goers instead of killing them all and raping the women. Don't you think that would have had a greater effect?

Greater effect in what way? I don’t think that would have brought them closer to their goals. And yes, the goals of Hamas are pretty reprehensible. I am pretty sure they want Israel to invade the Gaza Strip with all the death and atrocities and horror that will cause.

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Prayers and good thoughts would be welcome.

Done, my old... buddy?

 

"Life is very short, and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend-" Beatles

Edited October 11, 2023 by mfbukowski

[jkwilliams]

15 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I guess you didn’t even read the tweet you linked to?

It literally said they could be coming for us next. 🤷‍♂️

[rodheadlee]

20 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Greater effect in what way? I don’t think that would have brought them closer to their goals. And yes, the goals of Hamas are pretty reprehensible. I am pretty sure they want Israel to invade the Gaza Strip with all the death and atrocities and horror that will cause.

Yeah I know it's my dream. Joni  Mitchell penned it. Bombers turning into butterflies. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by rodheadlee

[rodheadlee]

11 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

It literally said they could be coming for us next. 🤷‍♂️

Yep and I can't even afford a gun or the bullets. I guess we'll have to feed them and sing.

[Teancum]

On 10/7/2023 at 12:18 PM, mfbukowski said:

Hey, it's gotta start somewhere, why not where it's supposed to?

 

Hmm. That is pretty crass.

[rodheadlee]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Hmm. That is pretty crass.

That's not crass, it's truth.