Israel under coordinated attack by Hamas.

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Exterminating Hezbollah would mean invading and occupying Lebanon.

So? The Lebanese people aren't  exactly jumping for joy to have Hezbollah in their neighborhood.

Edited October 9, 2023 by rodheadlee

[rodheadlee]

14 hours ago, sunstoned said:

Including Salt Lake City.

 

Yeah we have already had our Islamic terrorist attack, back in 2015. They killed 14 unarmed civilians until they bit the dust.

[bsjkki]

A thread. 
 

 

[bsjkki]

11 Americans confirmed dead. The President called a lid this morning.

Edited October 9, 2023 by bsjkki

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

So? The Lebanese people aren't  exactly jumping for joy to have Hezbollah in their neighborhood.

I have my doubts the IDF can effectively invade both Lebanon and the Gaza Strip.

[The Nehor]

The last thing anyone needs right now are vacancies in the highest levels of the United States Military. Can someone talk to Tommy Tuberville and point this out again?

Power, water, and food shipments are being cut to the Gaza Strip. It started raining right afterwards which some see as divine intervention. Others saw the fierce lightning storm and called it God’s wrath. I like to think Zeus was in town to seduce a swan or something and is really confused by all the praise he is getting.

One big problem is refugees from the Gaza Strip have nowhere to go. Egypt is going to be under really intense pressure to open their borders.

There are reports of Israel using white phosphorous near civilians….again. I really hope this isn’t the case but the experts I trust say that this is likely true.

Kadyrov in Chechnya is offering to send peacekeepers. Shut up, Kadyrov, I liked you better when there was a good chance you were dead.

Misinformation is flying. There was an ancient Orthodox Church destroyed by Israeli air strikes. Hamas was hoarding weapons there. It was filled with children. Best I can tell it probably wasn’t hit at all. There was also a threatening message from Hezbollah basically saying “we are coming” but it was an old video and they were talking about something else. There are people saying that the rifles Hamas militants are using were left behind in the withdrawal from Afghanistan because they are the same model despite that model being ubiquitous in Hamas, Hezbollah, the IDF, and most of the surrounding nations.

There are heartrending videos about the deaths from the air strikes, the deaths from the Hamas attacks, and from the families of the hostages.

There are people in Hamas threatening to kill hostages if the air strikes don’t cease but as best I can tell it is not coming from high levels of the organization. This might be deliberate. They want to get the message out in the hopes it will work (unlikely) but if the bluff is called they can choose to not kill the hostages and claim they didn’t say it. It just came from someone down the food chain who didn’t speak for them. That is my read but I could be very very wrong.

War is awful. People are dying. It is probably going to get much worse. Most of the suffering is falling on those who aren’t responsible for any of this happening.

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

ere was also a threatening message from Hezbollah basically saying “we are coming” but it was an old video and they were talking about something else.

What about the video I saw a day or two ago purporting to be Hezbollah attempting to cross the border?

(I have made a vow not to look at news myself today as I need to do other things and these days I don’t multitask well at all, so I am making others do the work of keeping me up to date instead of looking for answers myself)

Edited October 9, 2023 by Calm

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

What about the video I saw a day or two ago purporting to be Hezbollah attempting to cross the border?

(I have made a vow not to look at news myself today as I need to do other things and these days I don’t multitask well at all, so I am making others do the work of keeping me up to date instead of looking for answers myself)

I am not sure if they were trying to cross the border. It has mostly been firing back and forth. The problem with that kind of crossing the border allegation is that the border isn’t an agreed upon line. For reasons going back to the 40s and complicated more by events since Israel and Lebanon don’t agree exactly where the border is. Amazingly this is one border issue from the 1940s that was not the fault of the British. It was originally the fault of the French in this case though events since have complicated it. Basically when Israel withdrew Lebanon insisted they didn’t withdraw far enough but there were a lot of arguments. I read up on it years ago and my amateur understanding was Lebanon had the better longstanding ‘legal’ claim but Israel had it by conquest. Honestly this is probably not worth fighting over but national pride and all that.

If you want an example of this closer to home look up the Pig War where the US and the UK almost came to blows over an island and whole thing started over a pig getting killed.

For a humorous take on this:

In 2022 Israels finally resolved the maritime border dispute. That dispute was around for a while but didn’t matter much until they found natural gas under the ocean and it was in the disputed zone so things got dicey but they managed to resolve it. There were hopes that this would lead to agreeing on their land borders but that doesn’t seem likely at the moment.

[Durangout]

Really makes me sad to see that there are Hamas apologists on this site.  I suggest that you watch this in its entirety:

 

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, Durangout said:

Really makes me sad to see that there are Hamas apologists on this site.

Are we reading the same thread?

[bsjkki]

I was shocked with the pro Palestinian marches worldwide after the Hamas slaughter of civilians. Not sure I trust my ‘neighbors’ who celebrate the murder of civilians who seem willing to commit a new holocaust.

[The Nehor]

40 minutes ago, Durangout said:

Really makes me sad to see that there are Hamas apologists on this site.

Where?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

On 10/8/2023 at 3:11 PM, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

This is pure evil, and all you planned and implemented, they should pay dearly, and without mercy.

I should have spelled out, “and all who planned and implemented”, however I mistakenly used the “and all you”, not all who! 

[bsjkki]

 

[rodheadlee]

God knows who these people are, that celebrate murder and rape. These are the same that cheered when the Twin Towers came down and 3,000 were killed.

Edited October 10, 2023 by rodheadlee

[Durangout]

https://www.foxnews.com/world/40-babies-some-beheaded-found-israel-soldiers-hamas-attacked-village.amp

[The Nehor]

There is going to be a lot of propaganda and a lot of misery porn if you are into that kind of thing.

[bsjkki]

23 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

There is going to be a lot of propaganda and a lot of misery porn if you are into that kind of thing.

The news is quite horrifying. I guess we could just look away. https://www.thefp.com/p/when-people-tell-you-who-they-are

[The Nehor]

35 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

The news is quite horrifying. I guess we could just look away. https://www.thefp.com/p/when-people-tell-you-who-they-are

I wasn’t saying you should look away.

I am saying look at the dead Palestinians in the Gaza Strip too. They have been trapped for decades in what amounts to an open-air prison with around 50% unemployment, low quality of life, and virtually no hope of things getting better. Now their food, water, and power have been cut and bombs are dropping and threatening their families and they have no where to go. While some are innocents in this many are not but the same is true of Israel who kept those people in there. This is a horrific cycle of violence perpetuated by those in power on both sides for their own gain and it is killing their own people. Trying to divide this into good guys and bad guys doesn’t work. You can and should be horrified by all the Palestinian supporters calling for killing all the Jews but you should also be horrified by the Israelis calling for the genocide of the people in the Gaza Strip and there are quite a few of them.

To put this in perspective the American colonists revolted against the British for much much much less mistreatment.

I vehemently condemn the horrible Hamas attacks without needing to pump up bloodlust for revenge that tacitly supports war crimes. I don’t know how careful the IDF is being about civilian casualties. The fog of war is thick but the neutral reports on the ground I have seen are they are not being particularly careful. I said at the beginning of the thread that in previous conflicts Palestinian casualties are usually an order of magnitude or two higher than those Israel suffers. I expect this to be no exception unless there are some large-scale external interventions. To be clear I don’t want those external interventions to happen. I suspect it would just make things work.

Get angry. Get angry at the garbage that ordered these attacks. Get angry at the Israelis using this as propaganda to justify war crimes. Get angry at those who built this situation in the first place. Get angry at those who have perpetuated so these kinds of conflicts are inevitable.

If the Book of Mormon is for our day this conflict is the Jaredites where it is not a principled moral stance to choose Shiz or Coriantumr. A plague on them both for multiplying human misery.

When people tell you who they are believe them:

“We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly.” - Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant

Dehumanization of the enemy generally doesn’t mean there will be military restraint. God help them all. Maybe. I don’t know.

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I wasn’t saying you should look away.

I am saying look at the dead Palestinians in the Gaza Strip too. They have been trapped for decades in what amounts to an open-air prison with around 50% unemployment, low quality of life, and virtually no hope of things getting better. Now their food, water, and power have been cut and bombs are dropping and threatening their families and they have no where to go. While some are innocents in this many are not but the same is true of Israel who kept those people in there. This is a horrific cycle of violence perpetuated by those in power on both sides for their own gain and it is killing their own people. Trying to divide this into good guys and bad guys doesn’t work. You can and should be horrified by all the Palestinian supporters calling for killing all the Jews but you should also be horrified by the Israelis calling for the genocide of the people in the Gaza Strip and there are quite a few of them.

To put this in perspective the American colonists revolted against the British for much much much less mistreatment.

I vehemently condemn the horrible Hamas attacks without needing to pump up bloodlust for revenge that tacitly supports war crimes. I don’t know how careful the IDF is being about civilian casualties. The fog of war is thick but the neutral reports on the ground I have seen are they are not being particularly careful. I said at the beginning of the thread that in previous conflicts Palestinian casualties are usually an order of magnitude or two higher than those Israel suffers. I expect this to be no exception unless there are some large-scale external interventions. To be clear I don’t want those external interventions to happen. I suspect it would just make things work.

Get angry. Get angry at the garbage that ordered these attacks. Get angry at the Israelis using this as propaganda to justify war crimes. Get angry at those who built this situation in the first place. Get angry at those who have perpetuated so these kinds of conflicts are inevitable.

If the Book of Mormon is for our day this conflict is the Jaredites where it is not a principled moral stance to choose Shiz or Coriantumr. A plague on them both for multiplying human misery.

When people tell you who they are believe them:

“We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly.” - Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant

Dehumanization of the enemy generally doesn’t mean there will be military restraint. God help them all. Maybe. I don’t know.

No. 

Interesting to watch people ‘both sides’ this.

More context. 

 

Origin of the ‘loaded’ term. https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15

Edited October 10, 2023 by bsjkki

[bsjkki]

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2023/10/10/hamas_terrorist_war_against_israel_there_is_no_on_the_other_hand__149874.html

From Lanny Davis. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by bsjkki

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

No. 

Interesting to watch people ‘both sides’ this.

More context. 

 

Origin of the ‘loaded’ term. https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15

The term might be recent but the real question is if it is accurate? The Israeli forces did withdraw but Israel and Egypt enforced a quarantine of land, sea, and air routes in and out of the Gaza Strip. All goods entering or leaving had to go through Israeli checkpoints. Were there reasons not to trust the Hamas regime? HELL YES, they have always been a weird amalgam of a local administration and a genocidal terrorist organization. Does that justify keeping all those people permanently trapped and reliant on you for all imports and exports in perpetuity? Is it surprising that people that are basically second-class citizens kept in a ghetto with no hope of improvement or release might radicalize? Not really. Is it ridiculous to suggest that Israel letting them live like this is some grand act of charity and benevolence? Yeah.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2023/10/10/hamas_terrorist_war_against_israel_there_is_no_on_the_other_hand__149874.html

The Hamas attacks are inexcusable. Let’s hope the Israeli response isn’t also inexcusable.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2023/10/10/hamas_terrorist_war_against_israel_there_is_no_on_the_other_hand__149874.html

From Lanny Davis. 

So is he saying Israel should annex the territories?  If so, do Palestinians get citizenship?  If not, what is that alternative?

Edited October 11, 2023 by Calm

[MiserereNobis]

This situation again validates the moral strategy advocated by Gandhi, Martin Luther King, jr., and others: non-violent non-cooperation. The Palestinians had legitimate grievances about how they have been treated by Israel. Now, that doesn't matter. Hamas is evil towards Israel and evil towards Palestinians.