What I want my church to do for Latter-day Saint women

[blackstrap]

I was confused when she said that being a Financial clerk is not a priesthood function. There are very few ways to lose one's fellowship with the Saints faster ,than to mess with Church finances. Church resources are the tail that wags the dog. Temple priests anciently were in charge of the treasure . 

 

[bluebell]

16 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

I was confused when she said that being a Financial clerk is not a priesthood function. There are very few ways to lose one's fellowship with the Saints faster ,than to mess with Church finances. Church resources are the tail that wags the dog. Temple priests anciently were in charge of the treasure . 

 

But in our latter-day church, does one need to hold the priesthood to be a financial clerk?

[Malc]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

But in our latter-day church, does one need to hold the priesthood to be a financial clerk?

Someone is bound to point out that, in spite of common usage, there is no such thing as a financial clerk in the church - the calling is Assistant ward clerk. It may as well be me being pedantic as someone else 🙃

On the substance, ignoring the terminology, there is something strange in the Handbook of Instructions that strongly implies that the Assistant ward clerk responsible for finances be male, but the same wording is not used for the ward clerk, leaving the calling as potentially open to females.

Here's what the Handbook says:

Quote

Assistant ward clerks may be called as needed. They are recommended by the bishopric and called and set apart by a member of the stake presidency or an assigned high councilor. These brethren should hold the Melchizedek or Aaronic Priesthood. They should also have a current temple recommend. If an assistant ward clerk is assigned to finances, he should hold the Melchizedek Priesthood.

but

Quote

Clerks should hold the Melchizedek Priesthood and have a current temple recommend.

Note the "should" in each case, implying (to the pedant like me, at least) that it is a recommendation, and not a requirement. But the assistants for finances are referred to as "brethren", and "he".

Make of that what you will.

ETA: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/34-finances-and-audits?lang=eng

 

Further edit, that completely destroys what I already said: Section 7.4 of the Handbook says:

Quote

The bishop recommends a Melchizedek Priesthood holder to serve as ward clerk.

Sorry  

Edited September 26, 2023 by Malc
add correction

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, Malc said:

Someone is bound to point out that, in spite of common usage, there is no such thing as a financial clerk in the church - the calling is Assistant ward clerk. It may as well be me being pedantic as someone else 🙃

On the substance, ignoring the terminology, there is something strange in the Handbook of Instructions that strongly implies that the Assistant ward clerk responsible for finances be male, but the same wording is not used for the ward clerk, leaving the calling as potentially open to females.

Here's what the Handbook says:

but

Note the "should" in each case, implying (to the pedant like me, at least) that it is a recommendation, and not a requirement. But the assistants for finances are referred to as "brethren", and "he".

Make of that what you will.

ETA: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/34-finances-and-audits?lang=eng

 

Further edit, that completely destroys what I already said: Section 7.4 of the Handbook says:

Sorry  

I agree, it’s handbook policy for it to be an ordained male. But I’m wondering if the policy is based on doctrine? Not all policies are. Some policies are just what works best for what the church is trying to accomplish at a specific time and place.

[helix]

I personally can't see where money is associated with a priesthood keys. I'd have no problem if these callings were opened up regardless of gender.

In the same way, I also can't understand why Sunday School presidencies need to be Melchizedek priesthood holders.

[Nofear]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

But in our latter-day church, does one need to hold the priesthood to be a financial clerk?

In some units where there are almost no males (such as Filipino wards in Hong Kong) sisters have served as clerks and assistant clerks (not branch president).
There are no priesthood keys associated with the office calling of clerk.

 

edit to add a source and change bishop to branch president: https://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2017/12/24/mormon-congregations-in-hong-kong-unlike-any-others-theyre-virtually-all-women-and-they-dont-just-hold-services-on-sundays/

Edited September 26, 2023 by Nofear

[Malc]

9 minutes ago, Nofear said:

In some units where there are almost no males (such as Filipino wards in Hong Kong) sisters have served as clerks and assistant clerks (not not Bishop).
There are no priesthood keys associated with the office calling of clerk.

That's interesting!

[InCognitus]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

But in our latter-day church, does one need to hold the priesthood to be a financial clerk?

The only problem I see with having a female clerk is the Companionship Principle for dealing with finances (from the handbook 34.5.1): 

"Companionship Principle  The companionship principle requires two persons—a member of the bishopric and a clerk, or two members of the bishopric—to be actively involved when recording and disbursing Church funds. This principle is essential to safeguarding sacred funds and protecting Church leaders."

I italicized the last phrase for emphasis as well, because this has to do with the comment made by @blackstrap above.  Any mishandling of church funds is a very serious issue for the person involved. 

And also from 34.5.3 Verifying and Recording Tithing and Other Offerings - "Contributions should be verified and recorded on the Sunday they are received. A member of the bishopric and a clerk, or two members of the bishopric, open each envelope together."

And also from 34.5.4:  Depositing Tithing and Other Offerings - "Where a 24-hour bank depository is available, the bishopric member and another Melchizedek Priesthood holder deposit the funds in the bank on the same day the funds are opened and verified.  Where a 24-hour bank depository is not available and the bank is closed on Sunday, the bishop designates a Melchizedek Priesthood holder to make the deposit the next business day. Normally this person should be a member of the bishopric."

(I'm glad to read the last part, because I was in a situation once where I was with another Melchizedek priesthood holder and we took the tithing funds to the bank on Sunday, and the normal deposit box lock box where we deposited the funds was under construction that weekend, and I didn't have any way to make the deposit that Sunday.  I ended up taking the deposit by myself to a different branch of the same bank the next day, and I am glad to know that what I ended up needing to do was in line with the church handbook ).  

The only reason the "Companionship Principle" may be a problem if women are called to the finance clerk position is for the same reason two primary teachers are always called of the same sex, or a husband and wife are called (and never two random members of the opposite sex).  I suppose it may be possible to work it out if more people are in the clerk's office when the tithing is counted and reconciled (although the privacy of the funds is also important).  And maybe the female clerk wouldn't be one of the people that takes the funds to the bank (usually the clerk is one of the people that ends up going to the bank with the bishopric member in my experience).  So there are ways around the issue.

Edited September 26, 2023 by InCognitus

[MustardSeed]

40 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

  So there are ways around the issue.

Like having a female bishopric. 

[tagriffy]

6 hours ago, smac97 said:

Quote

Women are frequently told to stop seeking permission, but this is easier said than done because Latter-day Saint women also live within a context in which they, in fact, require (and can lose) male permission to access resources, authority, the temple, and priesthood blessings within church settings.

Um, men also live within this context.  

That is true enough, insofar as it goes. But it must also be remembered that the way the Church is structured, only men will have the ability to grant "permission to access resources, authority, the temple, and priesthood blessings within church setting."

6 hours ago, smac97 said:

Quote

Sisters must have permission and authority delegated by men to act officially within the church. They must be deemed worthy to enter temples by two men asking questions drafted by men. They are excluded from leadership positions that do not pertain exclusively to women and children, including positions like financial clerk that have little to do with priesthood functions. Women who followed the prophetic counsel to stay home often also depend on men for their financial maintenance.

None of this has much to do with tithing.

Who said tithing was the only topic the author was addressing?

6 hours ago, smac97 said:

Quote

I do not know how my tithing or fast offering money is spent.

Once money is donated, it's not her "tithing or fast offering money."

I'm not so sure that is entirely true. If tithing is thought of as a tax, then there is a sense where it remains her tithing. Just as we want to know where our tax dollars are going, it's not unreasonable for the author to know where her titing money is going.

6 hours ago, smac97 said:

Quote

Like all members, I am asked to tithe to an organization that does not invite my views on how money I earned is best spent. Because I do not have sufficient resources to tithe and significantly donate to other charitable organizations, paying tithing to a patriarchal, centralized church means that I do not get to experience the growth and fulfillment that can occur when you give to and/or have decision-making power over an organization’s resources. Women in the early, more autonomous Relief Society often exercised greater authority over economic and spiritual resources at church than Latter-day Saint women do today.

Translation: She is justifying her decision to not obey the Law of Tithing.

Where did she actually say that?

6 hours ago, smac97 said:

Quote

Only men can make the institutional changes surrounding gender that I think we need.

Only a very, very few men can make such changes.  The rest of us are asked to do the same things that are asked of her.  Exercise faith.  Serve.  Sustain the brethren.  Keep the commandments.  And so on.

Again, true enough insofar as it goes. But, again, only men can make such changes.

 

[blackstrap]

19 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Like having a female bishopric. 

If desired , here are some possible choices. 

List of female Anglican bishops - Wikipedia

[MustardSeed]

26 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

If desired , here are some possible choices. 

List of female Anglican bishops - Wikipedia

Not sure if you’re suggesting I change my religion? 

[blackstrap]

I guess it is a matter of semantics.

[Diamondhands69]

8 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I heard somebody last week say that the church was most sexist organization they are presently a part of. I had to admit that I would agree that there isn’t anything that I’m involved in that shows more sexism.

I’m in the same boat. Oddly enough in the financial advice world, there are few women compared to men. Last major BD I worked for we had about 300 advisors and less than ten were women. The second in charge there was a woman and our top wealth consolidator was a woman. Women were on equal par with men generally. They were routinely placed in organizational positions where they made major decisions. The current RIA I work for has more women in top positions than men. 
 

The women I mentioned above all have more leadership responsibility than the men currently running my stake and ward; yet if they were here, no one would want to hear what they have to say. We will just bumble along with the same nonsense we have going right now. 
 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Diamondhands69

[Diamondhands69]

It would be cool if they let women and girls pass the sacrament. No reason for just boys to hand a tray to a girl in a pew and she hands it to her dad. If a priesthood holder has to do it, then why are girls, women and non-priesthood holding males even allowed to touch a tray? 

[Diamondhands69]

6 hours ago, blackstrap said:

There are very few ways to lose one's fellowship with the Saints faster ,than to mess with Church finances. . 

 

We did learn this past year a melchezedic priesthood holder ( probably dozens in this instance) can create fake companies to hide tithing money in and file fraudulent forms to the govt in order to hide money from members and the government. These actions caused the church to be fined $5mm in total. 
 

Apparently that is acceptable behavior and you will keep your fellowship among the saints. 
 

Now if you steal a $1bill of a kids tithing money well- get a rope. Lol

Edited September 26, 2023 by Diamondhands69

[Diamondhands69]

Remember your place in church meetings ladies. If you need a reminder about your place, Elder Ballard explains it better than I can: 

 

[Kenngo1969]

I think, perhaps, that it might behoove us all to remember that we belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and not the other way around.  Just sayin'!

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, InCognitus said:

The only problem I see with having a female clerk is the Companionship Principle for dealing with finances (from the handbook 34.5.1): 

"Companionship Principle  The companionship principle requires two persons—a member of the bishopric and a clerk, or two members of the bishopric—to be actively involved when recording and disbursing Church funds. This principle is essential to safeguarding sacred funds and protecting Church leaders."

I italicized the last phrase for emphasis as well, because this has to do with the comment made by @blackstrap above.  Any mishandling of church funds is a very serious issue for the person involved. 

And also from 34.5.3 Verifying and Recording Tithing and Other Offerings - "Contributions should be verified and recorded on the Sunday they are received. A member of the bishopric and a clerk, or two members of the bishopric, open each envelope together."

And also from 34.5.4:  Depositing Tithing and Other Offerings - "Where a 24-hour bank depository is available, the bishopric member and another Melchizedek Priesthood holder deposit the funds in the bank on the same day the funds are opened and verified.  Where a 24-hour bank depository is not available and the bank is closed on Sunday, the bishop designates a Melchizedek Priesthood holder to make the deposit the next business day. Normally this person should be a member of the bishopric."

(I'm glad to read the last part, because I was in a situation once where I was with another Melchizedek priesthood holder and we took the tithing funds to the bank on Sunday, and the normal deposit box lock box where we deposited the funds was under construction that weekend, and I didn't have any way to make the deposit that Sunday.  I ended up taking the deposit by myself to a different branch of the same bank the next day, and I am glad to know that what I ended up needing to do was in line with the church handbook ).  

The only reason the "Companionship Principle" may be a problem if women are called to the finance clerk position is for the same reason two primary teachers are always called of the same sex, or a husband and wife are called (and never two random members of the opposite sex).  I suppose it may be possible to work it out if more people are in the clerk's office when the tithing is counted and reconciled (although the privacy of the funds is also important).  And maybe the female clerk wouldn't be one of the people that takes the funds to the bank (usually the clerk is one of the people that ends up going to the bank with the bishopric member in my experience).  So there are ways around the issue.

Agreed. I’m sure this is why it’s almost always a man right now. 

[MustardSeed]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I think, perhaps, that it might behoove us all to remember that we belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and not the other way around.  Just sayin'!

I think the church does belong to us.  The Gospel belongs to God and is non negotiable.  But the church?  Constantly changing.  There is room for growth. 

[Tacenda]

52 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I think the church does belong to us.  The Gospel belongs to God and is non negotiable.  But the church?  Constantly changing.  There is room for growth. 

And the bottom of the totem pole can be that change, and has been. One of the things I love about the church.

[Maestrophil]

10 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Remember your place in church meetings ladies. If you need a reminder about your place, Elder Ballard explains it better than I can: 

 

Oof...  Not very well said - but I agree with his council if applied to both sexes in attendance - WC meetings can be painfully long and chatty.  

[Diamondhands69]

2 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Oof...  Not very well said - but I agree with his council if applied to both sexes in attendance - WC meetings can be painfully long and chatty.  

It’s only “chatty” if it’s a woman. Priesthood holders can talk all day and get nothing done and it’s fine. Women?? Just wasting time (note- I’m being sarcastic)

Edited September 26, 2023 by Diamondhands69
/s

[Diamondhands69]

54 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

And the bottom of the totem pole can be that change, and has been. One of the things I love about the church.

Agreed.. that said virtually all doctrine and ordinances in the church have changed. Some because of activism

[pogi]

14 hours ago, InCognitus said:

The only problem I see with having a female clerk is the Companionship Principle for dealing with finances (from the handbook 34.5.1): 

"Companionship Principle  The companionship principle requires two persons—a member of the bishopric and a clerk, or two members of the bishopric—to be actively involved when recording and disbursing Church funds. This principle is essential to safeguarding sacred funds and protecting Church leaders."

I italicized the last phrase for emphasis as well, because this has to do with the comment made by @blackstrap above.  Any mishandling of church funds is a very serious issue for the person involved. 

And also from 34.5.3 Verifying and Recording Tithing and Other Offerings - "Contributions should be verified and recorded on the Sunday they are received. A member of the bishopric and a clerk, or two members of the bishopric, open each envelope together."

And also from 34.5.4:  Depositing Tithing and Other Offerings - "Where a 24-hour bank depository is available, the bishopric member and another Melchizedek Priesthood holder deposit the funds in the bank on the same day the funds are opened and verified.  Where a 24-hour bank depository is not available and the bank is closed on Sunday, the bishop designates a Melchizedek Priesthood holder to make the deposit the next business day. Normally this person should be a member of the bishopric."

(I'm glad to read the last part, because I was in a situation once where I was with another Melchizedek priesthood holder and we took the tithing funds to the bank on Sunday, and the normal deposit box lock box where we deposited the funds was under construction that weekend, and I didn't have any way to make the deposit that Sunday.  I ended up taking the deposit by myself to a different branch of the same bank the next day, and I am glad to know that what I ended up needing to do was in line with the church handbook ).  

The only reason the "Companionship Principle" may be a problem if women are called to the finance clerk position is for the same reason two primary teachers are always called of the same sex, or a husband and wife are called (and never two random members of the opposite sex).  I suppose it may be possible to work it out if more people are in the clerk's office when the tithing is counted and reconciled (although the privacy of the funds is also important).  And maybe the female clerk wouldn't be one of the people that takes the funds to the bank (usually the clerk is one of the people that ends up going to the bank with the bishopric member in my experience).  So there are ways around the issue.

I personally think this culture of separating the sexes in adulthood is unhealthy.   Every other day of the week we are expected to work with and coordinate with members of the opposite sex as coworkers, leaders or subordinates to them.  We need to learn how to work together in more healthy ways, because life requires that, and this culture is a barrier to that growth.