The LDS and Revival

[Navidad]

All I really wanted to do, was start a nice conversation about revivalism in the LDS religious culture. It is not something I remember having heard discussed on this forum before. I also don't seem to have a single book in my Mormon (broad brush) library on revivalism in the history of the LDS church. Take care all.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Calm, did you click on the link? This is something I don't think the church has ever done before, in fact when people first heard about it they didn't believe it. But it really happened. It's great though, but older members aren't going to get that, which is fine. 

I did, it is not something I would have gotten into at all as a kid, crowds were never my thing.  I find it hard to imagine how that could be uplifting, to be honest.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

All I really wanted to do, was start a nice conversation about revivalism in the LDS religious culture. It is not something I remember having heard discussed on this forum before. I also don't seem to have a single book in my Mormon (broad brush) library on revivalism in the history of the LDS church. Take care all.

No problem as far as I am concerned.  It is rather interesting now you brought it up that we don’t really have that tradition given the background of the Second Great Awakening and all when the Church was founded.  I wonder why.  They did rebaptisms expression of personal recommitment early on.  Maybe the need was filled by the monthly testimony meeting and the conferences.  With time the culture changed even if the meetings stayed the same.  It would be interesting to study early examples of Fast and Testimony Meetings, which were originally held on a Thursday and not a Sunday in addition to Sunday services. 
 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1998/03/i-have-a-question/i-have-a-question?lang=eng

Quote

For a year following the dedication of the Kirtland Temple, prayer meetings were held in the temple each Thursday under the direction of the Prophet’s father, Joseph Smith Sr. Once a month, one of those prayer meetings was designated as fast meeting. In these meetings, members prayed for the sick and spoke of their deepest spiritual feelings. At some of these gatherings, the gifts of prophecy and speaking in tongues were manifest (see Andrew Jenson, The Historical Record, June 1886, 79–80; Kenneth W. Godfrey, Audrey M. Godfrey, and Jill Mulvay Derr, Women’s Voices: An Untold History of the Latter-day Saints, 1830–1900 [1982], 60–61).

Elsewhere in Ohio in the 1830s, fast meetings were held on other days of the week as needed. For example, in Columbiana County, in eastern Ohio, members gathered in October 1837 for a Monday morning fast meeting following a weekend conference (see Elders’ Journal, Oct. 1837, 15). Later that month, members met in a Saturday fast meeting (see Elders’ Journal, Nov. 1837, 31).

Special fast meetings convened at other times during the early years of the Church. While Joseph and Hyrum Smith were in Liberty Jail, their father called a prayer and fast meeting that began at sunrise and continued until late afternoon to ask “the Lord to bless them and enable them to bear the cruelties that they had to suffer and pass through” (“Autobiography of John Lowe Butler: 1808–1861,” typescript, 16).

As the Saints moved from Ohio to Missouri and then into Illinois, fast meetings continued on an occasional basis in response to specific needs (see History of the Church, 4:389; 5:252; 7:264). In May 1845 the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles reemphasized the need to fast regularly and to donate to the bishop for the care of the poor (see History of the Church, 7:264, 413). From then until the mobbings of September 1845, monthly fast meetings were held in Nauvoo on the second Thursday of the month during the early part of the afternoon (see Diary of Hosea Stout, ed. Juanita Brooks [1964], 1:43, 47, 51, 57).

 

We have so many organized devotional church meetings that I don’t think it would occur to many members to organize even more, though there are a lot of independent of the Church church related conferences set up for educational and devotional classes, some great, some terrible imo .  “Spontaneous meeting” is kind of an oxymoron in our LDS culture imo.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Well, you see its all about how you define your words! 😄 Isn't it? Someone on this forum keeps posting about that!

Good.

Perhaps you will learn something about Wittgenstein on language games, and contexts after all.

Edited September 24, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Tacenda]

56 minutes ago, Calm said:

I did, it is not something I would have gotten into at all as a kid, crowds were never my thing.  I find it hard to imagine how that could be uplifting, to be honest.

It is so out of the norm though, I guess I was surprised by it. Or haven't really seen much of it. My daughter attended EFY in Logan once, and a son did at BYU. All my kids did Trek and youth conferences, but never something like this. I read some of the young single adult comments and they seemed to love it, and being around other YSA's made them feel less alone. Maybe covid did a number on them too, where everyone was relegated to stay home from everything so it was good to be with others in close proximity. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Tacenda

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It is so out of the norm though, I guess I was surprised by it. Or haven't really seen much of it. My daughter attended EFY in Logan once, and a son did at BYU. All my kids did Trek and youth conferences, but never something like this. I read some of the young single adult comments and they seemed to love it, and being around other YSA's made them feel less alone. Maybe covid did a number on them too, where everyone was relegated to stay home from everything so it was good to be with others in close proximity. 

I can imagine there are a lot that would really enjoy it, including one of my siblings if they had them back then.  She really enjoyed the dance festivals and stuff and volunteered.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I can imagine there are a lot that would really enjoy it, including one of my siblings if they had them back then.  She really enjoyed the dance festivals and stuff and volunteered.

I just realized my use of the word "relegated" was not what I thought it was, haha.

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Tacenda

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I just realized my use of the word "relegated" was not what I thought it was, haha.

 

Close enough.   

[Leaf474]

14 hours ago, Tacenda said:

This is the closest to a revival as I have seen in the church. But too bad old people like me weren't invited.

https://www.thechurchnews.com/members/2023/8/6/23821787/together-in-christ-the-unprecedented-onerepublic-concert-for-young-single-adults#:~:text=Concertgoers watch the “Together in,Area Young Single Adult Conference.&text=During the concert%2C the performers,spiritual sentiments while on stage.

An image from the link

 

11 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

This looks a lot like a revival!

https://www.utahysaconference.org/

Looking at the video that plays at the beginning of that link, what stands out to me is vigorous body movement. Basically, dance.

 

Reminded me of this

20 Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a tambourine in her hand; and all the women went out after her with tambourines and with dances.

Exodus 15

[Smiley McGee]

11 hours ago, Navidad said:

It is not something I remember having heard discussed on this forum before. I also don't seem to have a single book in my Mormon (broad brush) library on revivalism in the history of the LDS church.

I’m certainly no expert, but probably the closest thing you’ll find to revivalism in the church is events near the organization of the church, as the church seems to have popped up out of a larger revivalist movement(??). The church seems to have viewed authority and spiritual gifts in a much more egalitarian way then. Hence why you’re likely to not observe or read about lds revivalism since. @Okrahomer is probably correct in suggesting the mid 19th century Mormon reformation as the closest thing to a modern LDS revival—a group wide “come to Jesus moment” led by leadership.
 

You may even look at some modern LDS offshoots to see if their origins contain the elements of revivalism you’ve described. You’ll probably continue to get defensive, snarky comments here if you try to squeeze that square through the circle of the modern LDS church.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Smiley McGee

[mfbukowski]

30 minutes ago, Smiley McGee said:

if you try to squeeze that square through the circle of the modern LDS church.

... shouldn't we be the "square" ?

Just a little more snark, because I get to go to church now and repent.

😇

[Chum]

12 hours ago, Navidad said:

All I really wanted to do, was start a nice conversation about revivalism in the LDS religious culture. It is not something I remember having heard discussed on this forum before. I also don't seem to have a single book in my Mormon (broad brush) library on revivalism in the history of the LDS church. Take care all.

What you introduced is really interesting. This compare/contrast of methods and intensity of renewal is fairly fascinating.  It's the security of a consistent diet vs the more sensorial experience of starve and feed.

Two things. 1 ) Now I'm trying to puzzle-out if our devotion to a steady diet amplifies our feelings on fasting.

2) Coming from a Pentecostal background, I was struck by what I saw as Church members' Vulcan-like aversion to strong feelings (though I'd now say our strong feelings are more curated). But I was also a new father from a chaotic upbringing; I was looking for a steadying environment.

[The Nehor]

The old EFY events had a taste of youth revivalism. Leadership had a mixed opinion on them.

[Chum]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The old EFY events had a taste of youth revivalism. Leadership had a mixed opinion on them.

I wonder if those mixed feelings survived long enough to shape the new FSY conferences.

[Smiley McGee]

Relatedly, I seem to recall a recorded talk I watched in the MTC of a leader criticizing Billy Graham style harvest events as he thought it trivialized salvation. Can’t seem to find a record of it so I may be misremembering. Not sure if anyone else remembers a similar talk. 

[MustardSeed]

I can’t stand the intensity of emotion at revivally youth events. I hated it when I was a kid as well. It all just looks like spiritual manipulation to me.
 

My spiritual come to Jesus moment are always quiet. I recognize this is not the same for everybody.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I can’t stand the intensity of emotion at revivally youth events. I hated it when I was a kid as well. It all just looks like spiritual manipulation to me.
 

My spiritual come to Jesus moment are always quiet. I recognize this is not the same for everybody.

Mine too! Except when our stake, years ago, hosted the Calvery Baptist Choir for a Christmas program with several wards participating. Before it began the stake president said it's okay if we clap during it in the chapel and cultural hall. During the prayer there were many "amens" by the Baptist guests during it and that was kind of sweet (later that night for nightly prayer my younger son said "amen" during it and we got a kick out of it).

And then the singing began, and during one of the Baptist's choir's singing they sang, "Go, Tell It on the Mountain". It was a surreal experience with everyone standing up and clapping especially when seeing the SP and Bishops swaying and clapping while singing. I felt something shoot through me, not sure what it was but I had never felt that before as I stood singing for joy the words of that song. 

So sometimes it's possibly needed I guess, for those like me that tends to keep a lot inside. 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Tacenda

[Diamondhands69]

22 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Mine too! Except when our stake, years ago, hosted the Calvery Baptist Choir for a Christmas program with several wards participating. Before it began the stake president said it's okay if we clap during it in the chapel and cultural hall. During the prayer there were many "amens" by the Baptist guests during it and that was kind of sweet (later that night for nightly prayer my younger son said "amen" during it and we got a kick out of it).

And then the singing began, and during one of the Baptist's choir's singing they sang, "Go, Tell It on the Mountain". It was a surreal experience with everyone standing up and clapping especially when seeing the SP and Bishops swaying and clapping while singing. I felt something shoot through me, not sure what it was but I had never felt that before as I stood singing for joy the words of that song. 

So sometimes it's possibly needed I guess, for those like me that tends to keep a lot inside. 

 

Choir music in other churches is awesome…. Lds….. zzzzzzzzzzzzz or sounds like a funeral

[CV75]

On 9/23/2023 at 1:16 PM, Navidad said:

I am interested in having my LDS friends tell me more about the LDS, revival, and the movement of the Holy Ghost in specific events and times. I don't know how many of you have followed the revival-like atmosphere at Auburn University this past week? I was fascinated when I read that the head football, head basketball, and head baseball coaches were all involved. In all the years of BYU, Ricks, BYU-Hawaii, etc. has there ever been a student led spontaneous revival - or is a revival culture simply unknown among my LDS friends?

I am not sure I have ever seen a book on the LDS and Revival. In the same vein, I don't remember seeing, or reading about the LDS and Praise music/events. For a church with ongoing revelation as a focus I guess that surprises me. I often read about how the LDS are unique  (from LDS sources) in their belief in ongoing revelation - yet wouldn't/isn't revival/praise and spontaneity some form of ongoing revelation by the Spirit and therefore a  part of that? Something like Kirtland almost 200 years ago? I value all of your thinking and ideas about this? What would the LDS leadership think about something like what has been going on this week at Auburn and apparently at Texas AM, although I don't know anything about that? A general discussion about the LDS and revival would be very interesting to me.

There are plenty of YouTube videos on this event, but I am not sure about posting a link to a non-LDS religious movement, so I didn't. Thanks and best wishes to all.

You used the term, "revival-like atmosphere." If you are talking about this Christian revival - Wikipedia (or revivalism), something like this Retrenchment (churchofjesuschrist.org) happens periodically within the Church.

If you are talking about personal revival, that does happen in many Church/chapel-based group settings that foster both personal and group quickening by the Holy Ghost (sacrament meeting, temple worship, councils, etc.). It can also happen anywhere, anytime, according to the individual's needs and the Lord's will. It can be obvious or subtle, of short or long-term duration, etc. The same if you are talking about group revival.

I don't think BYU has mirrored anything like your article. I take this to be the product of what I listed in paragraph 2. What do you believe inspired and activated the students at the other colleges? Something like what I listed in paragraphs 1 or 2?

What do you see as the differences between a "led" revival, a "spontaneous" revival" and a "led spontaneous" revival (the term you used)?

 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by CV75

[Navidad]

7 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

It all just looks like spiritual manipulation to me.

My guess is some is and some ain't.

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

You used the term, "revival-like atmosphere." If you are talking about this Christian revival - Wikipedia (or revivalism), something like this Retrenchment (churchofjesuschrist.org) happens periodically within the Church.

If you are talking about personal revival, that does happen in many Church/chapel-based group settings that foster both personal and group quickening by the Holy Ghost (sacrament meeting, temple worship, councils, etc.). It can also happen anywhere, anytime, according to the individual's needs and the Lord's will. It can be obvious or subtle, of short or long-term duration, etc. The same if you are talking about group revival.

I don't think BYU has mirrored anything like your article. I take this to be the product of what I listed in paragraph 2. What do you believe inspired and activated the students at the other colleges? Something like what I listed in paragraphs 1 or 2?

What do you see as the differences between a "led" revival, a "spontaneous" revival" and a "led spontaneous" revival (the term you used)?

 

 

Well, my thinking is a led revival is a structured event where the music, preaching, and atmosphere is set up to create a deep sense of conviction that might lead to a strong emotional-spiritual response. I am not a big fan of those. I never agreed to speak at a "revival" meeting or conference. A spontaneous revival is an impromptu event that is the result of one or a few folk's genuine quest for more of the Spirit or more of Christ. There is much less structure unless it grows as at Asbury and apparently at Auburn. Apparently then at Auburn, after the students were involved by the hundreds, chaplains of local student organizations like Inter-varsity and other non-church groups became involved and led or brought organization to the events. For example at Auburn, one student requested to be baptized. A local chaplain of a para-church (non-church) organization suggested they go to a local lake and the baptisms started. Then, it is possible or probable that some local churches with large student populations became involved. Apparently at one point or another there were 7 or 8 performing the baptisms. I did not get the impression at any time that it was a "church-led" event. I am sure that Auburn as a state university does not have official chaplains, but I know that many student-led religious clubs or organizations on campus would have them. Auburn most likely has some kind of LDS organization on campus (seminary?) or just off campus. If it goes on, I am sure some group will complain about such things happening on a state campus. Take care.

[Leaf474]

This passage came to my mind

Jeremiah 20:9

If I say, I will not make mention of him, or speak any more in his name, then there is in my heart as it were a burning fire shut up in my bones. I am weary with holding it in. I can’t.

 

If there's fire in your bones, it's going to make a difference in your demeanor as it comes out.

[Amulek]

On 9/23/2023 at 12:16 PM, Navidad said:

I don't remember seeing, or reading about the LDS and Praise music/events.

I've attended quite a few other denominations over the years, and what passes for praise music in most churches these days is (in my opinion) largely a bunch of garbage.

So, if you don't hear about LDS engaging in similar activities, I for one would consider that to be a feature - not a bug.

 

[CV75]

13 hours ago, Navidad said:

Well, my thinking is a led revival is a structured event where the music, preaching, and atmosphere is set up to create a deep sense of conviction that might lead to a strong emotional-spiritual response. I am not a big fan of those. I never agreed to speak at a "revival" meeting or conference. A spontaneous revival is an impromptu event that is the result of one or a few folk's genuine quest for more of the Spirit or more of Christ. There is much less structure unless it grows as at Asbury and apparently at Auburn. Apparently then at Auburn, after the students were involved by the hundreds, chaplains of local student organizations like Inter-varsity and other non-church groups became involved and led or brought organization to the events. For example at Auburn, one student requested to be baptized. A local chaplain of a para-church (non-church) organization suggested they go to a local lake and the baptisms started. Then, it is possible or probable that some local churches with large student populations became involved. Apparently at one point or another there were 7 or 8 performing the baptisms. I did not get the impression at any time that it was a "church-led" event. I am sure that Auburn as a state university does not have official chaplains, but I know that many student-led religious clubs or organizations on campus would have them. Auburn most likely has some kind of LDS organization on campus (seminary?) or just off campus. If it goes on, I am sure some group will complain about such things happening on a state campus. Take care.

How would a “regular” Sunday worship service differ from a “led revival”?

I can see how a spontaneous event (where “two or three are gathered together in my name”) can be co-opted by the powers that be (e.g., chaplains of student organizations) to evolve into a “led revival,” with understandably less than the Lord’s intended results (I'm assuming this is why you are not a fan of them -- it really doesn't matter at that stage whether it is a church or some other non-church organization doing the leading). That said, I see no real harm with what was done at Auburn as you describe it.

I have not seen this sort of thing occur at our “regular” Sunday worship services (which are led by local priesthood authority) or at BYU.

Edited September 25, 2023 by CV75

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, Amulek said:

I've attended quite a few other denominations over the years, and what passes for praise music in most churches these days is (in my opinion) largely a bunch of garbage.

So, if you don't hear about LDS engaging in similar activities, I for one would consider that to be a feature - not a bug.

 

Perhaps because I wrote something, and it is me doing so as a non-member, you may attach a negative or critical connotation to what I am saying. While I would not characterize praise music as "a bunch of garbage", I want to make it clear that I am not a fan of much of what I see/hear in churches today as praise music and am not advocating it for the LDS Sacrament or the Mennonite Sunday morning service. I dislike it because I find it hard to sing (for a bass) and terribly repetitive.

So any comments I make about praise music or institutional revivalism are neither to advocate for or opine against. I am simply curious that I have heard crickets about revivalism in thirty-four years of studying LDS and Mormon history and in six years of attending an LDS ward and posting on this forum. I am intellectually curious about that; not a spiritual advocate for or against - especially when referring to institutional-led revivalism.

The LDS church had as its cradle a nursery of revivalism - hence the use of the term "burnt-over." I am wondering if the distancing from that identity is another example of the LDS desire to be distinct, different from, and insulated (isolated?) in its own identity. People much smarter than me have referred to that as the Mormon identity as island or cocoon. Maybe that comes with the identify as Zion instead of Babylon. Jew versus Gentile; Mennonite/Amish versus English and on and on.

Now, having said all of that I must confess that I find the Sacrament service very predictable, staid, and repetitive week to week. I now believe it is that way because that is the way the church wants it to be. That goes even to the point of talks about what are the essentials in a proper testimony, the order of service, attire to be worn, songs to be sung, instruction in how to direct and lead the music, etc. That is merely an observation over attendance at somewhere around two-hundred-fifty some Sacrament services.

I come from a generation that has made a transition from suits, ties, and dresses for church to one of shorts, jeans, and come-as-you-are whether attending or leading. At this point of my life (74 years old) I am more comfortable getting dressed up for church, but not to the point where I have to wear a tie and a white shirt anymore than jeans and sandals.

I tend to live life as an in-betweener. That is why I resist generation generalizations. That tends to get me into trouble from all sides!   Just to clarify and conclude -- If I make a comment about Mormonesque-things that appears to be observationally negative - it may very well be, based on my own personal preferences. I own that. I also would say that I have to intention for such to be taken as critical or demeaning of in its intent.

I earned my living for my entire life as one providing observations about organizations, usually school districts that were paying me for my analysis. I have been introduced at meetings as an organizational anthropologist. However I understand that perhaps most folks aren't interested in my observations, especially as an outsider, inside-outsider, or outside-insider!  I need to reign in my well-honed tendency to do that, especially where it might not be appreciated!  🙃