The LDS and Revival

[mfbukowski]

On 9/27/2023 at 12:26 PM, webbles said:

That's part of the debate on when does the prophet speak as a prophet and when does he speak as a man. 

The major requirement for either is that his lips move.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, CV75 said:

it is equally inconceivable to me that ultimately, He would tell them to join our Church to fulfill His plan for all His children.

Thinking you left out a “not” as in “he would not tell”

[Leaf474]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

And believe it or not, I side with this. If I decided to return to any church it would be the LDS church possibly. But I really haven't been to many non LDS ones, and maybe should try to compare before saying that.

Organized religion bit me once by not giving full disclosure on it's history, so I'm guessing that will be the case across the board in other religions and I don't have trust in these organizations. I have PTSD from it all, the shock, the loss of identity, the friends/family lost, etc. from not believing in the church's fallible leaders and doctrine.

But maybe the Lord wanted me to go through this, so I would start actually having the faith of a mustard seed. Because at one time my faith was the size of the universe in the church and God/Jesus without really walking the walk or doing the work.

❤️❤️❤️

[mfbukowski]

12 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

❤️❤️❤️

Excellent way to get around the ban on + points!

I cannot conceive what horrible deed she did to deserve it. 

 

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think the Saints differ according to their understanding of what this means. It is not inconceivable to me that He wouldn't, but it is equally inconceivable to me that ultimately, He would tell them to join our Church to fulfill His plan for all His children. But before He tells anyone anything, we either have to ask the question (seek, knock) or pick up on His invitation (open the door when He stands there and knocks).

Agree. 

This is supposedly a test.  One does not give away answers on tests.

But to me, finding personal revelation IS the test. He already tells us we can find the truth by ASKING. Moroni 10, James 1, others.

How then can He give it away WITHOUT us asking???

It would be self contradictory.

 

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Agree. 

This is supposedly a test.  One does not give away answers on tests.

But to me, finding personal revelation IS the test. He already tells us we can find the truth by ASKING. Moroni 10, James 1, others.

How then can He give it away WITHOUT us asking???

It would be self contradictory.

 

And we would be less likely to be in a listening mood.

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

his church, TCOJCOLDS

Nine letters, nine words.

"Mormon" was a lot easier.  But I agree it led people astray

[mfbukowski]

54 minutes ago, Calm said:

Thinking you left out a “not” as in “he would not tell”

Disagree.

To me, figuring it out IS the test.

I mean, IN THE PARADIGM we are only talking about becoming like God here,and grading on the curve for qualifications?

Meh.

Edited September 28, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Tacenda]

36 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Excellent way to get around the ban on + points!

I cannot conceive what horrible deed she did to deserve it. 

 

I annoyed the heck out of people, that's what I did, lol!

Thank you and thank you @Leaf474!

Edited September 28, 2023 by Tacenda

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I annoyed the heck out of people, that's what I did, lol!

I think you just displayed overeagerness too often for the moderators by starting too many threads at once.  So many questions and comments and you wanted others’ input on them.   

Edited September 28, 2023 by Calm

[Navidad]

6 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

In the spirit of transparency, when I read your post, I 1. Believed your experience. 2 . Assumed that your sub text was challenging the common LDS idea that God would never not want somebody to join his church, TCOJCOLDS

Hi. Thanks for your message. As I read it over and think about it, I was musing - trying to relate what Mark said about "How do you know? You just do." I wasn't challenging that at all, I was simply trying to connect that idea to our experiences with engagement with the LDS church that went way beyond being a LDS history aficionado. There are lots of folks who have done that. They study the LDS church, then close their computer and go about their real life completely separate from the church, including worshiping in their own community.

We don't have that luxury here. We did when we lived in San Diego and Sarasota. Having said that, in the interest of full transparency on my part as I read and re-read it, if there was anything a bit unconsciously snarky in what I said it was in the last phrase about how we felt led to worship, minister, and fellowship in the local ward "as long" as we live here and basically have no where else to go to use our gifts.

For five years under two bishops it went well. Some bumps and bruises to be sure, but by and large we enjoyed being there and all that involved, and I think the folks enjoyed us. Then a third bishop was appointed and sustained by the folks and everything changed.

We had nothing in our repertoire of church experiences and ministry to prepare us for not being welcomed as a ministering part of a Christian church. . . a church that if you attended five Sunday Sacraments in a row, you would notice virtually nothing different of any significance from any other church we had attended.

We have had the same stake president all six years. He is a wonderful man who is a member of our ward and the son of the general authority emeritus with whom we had such a wonderful relationship. Anyway, lest I say too much, I probably am still in pain about that and any snark in my comment was about the last phrase, not either of the first two. My pain with our LDS journey and sojourn is a very personal pain. It has nothing to do with theology or any other system of doctrine. It is purely personal loss.

The counsel we have received from two LDS leaders who we consider to be our spiritual guides through the world of the LDS has been one of encouraging us to be patient with the situation, stay in contact with the folks, and not to "burn any bridges" (my term) in anticipation of the time when things will change again.

I don't know if we will be here the rest of our lives or not? We really can not know for sure, being liminal Anglos here no matter how hard we try and integrate. I am sure some or many of you have heard of the exodus of the folks from here on several occasions in the early twentieth century. I know some of you on this forum have ancestors who had to leave here. Those leavings were never about religion. Some day we may face our own exodus from our beloved home and village. Things aren't really all that different today from 1912. There I go musing again. Thanks for reading my thoughts.

[MiserereNobis]

4 minutes ago, Navidad said:

a church that if you attended five Sunday Sacraments in a row, you would notice virtually nothing different of any significance from any other church we had attended.

You need to get yourself to a traditional Latin high mass 😉
 

ETA: I mean this as a joke about how different a high mass is from other church’s services

Edited September 28, 2023 by MiserereNobis

[mfbukowski]

4 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Then a third bishop was appointed and sustained by the folks and everything changed.

He was probably the first to read the manual, or be trained in what typical practices are.

Sorry, but that IS normal procedure.

Non-members giving Sacrament talks?  Doing lessons?

I would ask anyone on the board to let us know if they have seen that.

It's not my rule, imo it NEVER happens 

[mfbukowski]

9 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

You need to get yourself to a traditional Latin high mass 😉
 

ETA: I mean this as a joke about how different a high mass is from other church’s services

Yes, your mass is different IN PURPOSE than any other Christian service except maybe Anglican or Lutheran services.

Your entire meeting is purposefully a "sacrament".

Ours are partially that, but also a lesson.

I honestly miss High Mass in Latin- it is very like our temple in purpose, in many ways

 

[Navidad]

15 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

You need to get yourself to a traditional Latin high mass 😉
 

ETA: I mean this as a joke about how different a high mass is from other church’s services

You know, I think you are right. I have never been to a Latin high mass! Where would I find one in rural northern Mexico? I have been to very formal Antiochan Orthodox services which were in Arabic. Certainly they were different from LDS sacrament meetings.

[MiserereNobis]

1 minute ago, Navidad said:

You know, I think you are right. I have never been to a Latin high mass! Where would I find one in rural northern Mexico? I have been to very formal Antiochan Orthodox services which were in Arabic. Certainly they were different from LDS sacrament meetings.

If I remember correctly, you cross into New Mexico sometimes, right? You could go down the road a little ways to El Paso. There are two options there: SSPX (irregular status with the Vatican) or FSSP (full communion with the Vatican). 
 

An Antiochan Orthodox service sounds very interesting!

[Navidad]

11 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

He was probably the first to read the manual, or be trained in what typical practices are.

Sorry, but that IS normal procedure.

Non-members giving Sacrament talks?  Doing lessons?

I would ask anyone on the board to let us know if they have seen that.

It's not my rule, imo it NEVER happens 

Not a good topic for me to opine on. I have started and deleted five times. I will just leave it alone since I have been having a good day. A better suggestion might be for you to speak to a general authority of the church and see what they would say about it, along with specific unique situations, and local leadership's authority to deal with unique situations.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Thinking you left out a “not” as in “he would not tell”

Absolutely, good catch and thank you!

[CV75]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Disagree.

To me, figuring it out IS the test.

I mean, IN THE PARADIGM we are only talking about becoming like God here,and grading on the curve for qualifications?

Meh.

I guess my post was an unintentional test... whether I used "would" or "would not," the bottom line is that God does not, out of nowhere, tell us to join our Church or any other church. He answers prayers (and desires and inclinations in the absence of prayer), and set things up so that eventually, we hear enough to exert the faith to ask this question.

The way I see it, the weaker belief comes by being told, and the stronger faith comes by hearing.

[CV75]

48 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Hi. Thanks for your message. As I read it over and think about it, I was musing - trying to relate what Mark said about "How do you know? You just do." I wasn't challenging that at all, I was simply trying to connect that idea to our experiences with engagement with the LDS church that went way beyond being a LDS history aficionado. There are lots of folks who have done that. They study the LDS church, then close their computer and go about their real life completely separate from the church, including worshiping in their own community.

We don't have that luxury here. We did when we lived in San Diego and Sarasota. Having said that, in the interest of full transparency on my part as I read and re-read it, if there was anything a bit unconsciously snarky in what I said it was in the last phrase about how we felt led to worship, minister, and fellowship in the local ward "as long" as we live here and basically have no where else to go to use our gifts.

For five years under two bishops it went well. Some bumps and bruises to be sure, but by and large we enjoyed being there and all that involved, and I think the folks enjoyed us. Then a third bishop was appointed and sustained by the folks and everything changed.

We had nothing in our repertoire of church experiences and ministry to prepare us for not being welcomed as a ministering part of a Christian church. . . a church that if you attended five Sunday Sacraments in a row, you would notice virtually nothing different of any significance from any other church we had attended.

We have had the same stake president all six years. He is a wonderful man who is a member of our ward and the son of the general authority emeritus with whom we had such a wonderful relationship. Anyway, lest I say too much, I probably am still in pain about that and any snark in my comment was about the last phrase, not either of the first two. My pain with our LDS journey and sojourn is a very personal pain. It has nothing to do with theology or any other system of doctrine. It is purely personal loss.

The counsel we have received from two LDS leaders who we consider to be our spiritual guides through the world of the LDS has been one of encouraging us to be patient with the situation, stay in contact with the folks, and not to "burn any bridges" (my term) in anticipation of the time when things will change again.

I don't know if we will be here the rest of our lives or not? We really can not know for sure, being liminal Anglos here no matter how hard we try and integrate. I am sure some or many of you have heard of the exodus of the folks from here on several occasions in the early twentieth century. I know some of you on this forum have ancestors who had to leave here. Those leavings were never about religion. Some day we may face our own exodus from our beloved home and village. Things aren't really all that different today from 1912. There I go musing again. Thanks for reading my thoughts.

I support the counsel you received to hang in there. Walking with the Lord through our trials is always better, as we realize in hindsight.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

He was probably the first to read the manual, or be trained in what typical practices are.

Sorry, but that IS normal procedure.

Non-members giving Sacrament talks?  Doing lessons?

I would ask anyone on the board to let us know if they have seen that.

It's not my rule, imo it NEVER happens 

I think I saw a nonmember parent give a sacrament talk eons ago for their son’s missionary farewell, I would not expect to see that now.  That is the only one I can think of.  Never knew of a nonmember giving a lesson, but the wards and branches I went to had few nonmember even attending, all spouses of members iirc.  I was quite surprised when I read here Navidad’s experience. I assumed it was a small and intimate ward, so there would be no misunderstanding about their situation and if something contrary to doctrine was said, it would be understood to be a different POV and if necessary, corrected.   I was less surprised to hear the new bishop followed the Handbook more closely.  The Handbook does say guidelines, after all.  I was not sure if this was a more flexible guideline or one of the more set in stone policies.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Calm

[Leaf474]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I annoyed the heck out of people, that's what I did, lol!

Thank you and thank you @Leaf474!

You're welcome 🤗

[Leaf474]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

You know, I think you are right. I have never been to a Latin high mass! Where would I find one in rural northern Mexico? I have been to very formal Antiochan Orthodox services which were in Arabic. Certainly they were different from LDS sacrament meetings.

They may not be available in your area. Last I heard, Pope Francis was putting limitations on them.

 

But if you search on YouTube you can find them.

[MiserereNobis]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

He was probably the first to read the manual, or be trained in what typical practices are.

Sorry, but that IS normal procedure.

Non-members giving Sacrament talks?  Doing lessons?

I would ask anyone on the board to let us know if they have seen that.

It's not my rule, imo it NEVER happens 

Perhaps, in way of empathy towards Navidad‘s position, remember how you were allowed to speak at one of your parent’s funerals in a Catholic church. That was definitely against the rules, but you did describe it as a very important event for you.

Edited September 29, 2023 by MiserereNobis

[Leaf474]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi. Thanks for your message. As I read it over and think about it, I was musing - trying to relate what Mark said about "How do you know? You just do." I wasn't challenging that at all, I was simply trying to connect that idea to our experiences with engagement with the LDS church that went way beyond being a LDS history aficionado. There are lots of folks who have done that. They study the LDS church, then close their computer and go about their real life completely separate from the church, including worshiping in their own community.

We don't have that luxury here. We did when we lived in San Diego and Sarasota. Having said that, in the interest of full transparency on my part as I read and re-read it, if there was anything a bit unconsciously snarky in what I said it was in the last phrase about how we felt led to worship, minister, and fellowship in the local ward "as long" as we live here and basically have no where else to go to use our gifts.

For five years under two bishops it went well. Some bumps and bruises to be sure, but by and large we enjoyed being there and all that involved, and I think the folks enjoyed us. Then a third bishop was appointed and sustained by the folks and everything changed.

We had nothing in our repertoire of church experiences and ministry to prepare us for not being welcomed as a ministering part of a Christian church. . . a church that if you attended five Sunday Sacraments in a row, you would notice virtually nothing different of any significance from any other church we had attended.

We have had the same stake president all six years. He is a wonderful man who is a member of our ward and the son of the general authority emeritus with whom we had such a wonderful relationship. Anyway, lest I say too much, I probably am still in pain about that and any snark in my comment was about the last phrase, not either of the first two. My pain with our LDS journey and sojourn is a very personal pain. It has nothing to do with theology or any other system of doctrine. It is purely personal loss.

The counsel we have received from two LDS leaders who we consider to be our spiritual guides through the world of the LDS has been one of encouraging us to be patient with the situation, stay in contact with the folks, and not to "burn any bridges" (my term) in anticipation of the time when things will change again.

I don't know if we will be here the rest of our lives or not? We really can not know for sure, being liminal Anglos here no matter how hard we try and integrate. I am sure some or many of you have heard of the exodus of the folks from here on several occasions in the early twentieth century. I know some of you on this forum have ancestors who had to leave here. Those leavings were never about religion. Some day we may face our own exodus from our beloved home and village. Things aren't really all that different today from 1912. There I go musing again. Thanks for reading my thoughts.

 

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

Not a good topic for me to opine on. I have started and deleted five times. I will just leave it alone since I have been having a good day. A better suggestion might be for you to speak to a general authority of the church and see what they would say about it, along with specific unique situations, and local leadership's authority to deal with unique situations.

This passage came to my mind

They said therefore to him, “Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?”

John 1:22

 

I'm not even LDS, but if I were the bishop of your ward, I think I would wonder what you were doing there. Are you there to learn? It sounds like you've been there long enough to learn any unique features of LDS meetings.

 

Are you there to worship and minister? Why would you do that in a group you have no intention of joining?

 

What prevents you from joining?

If you don't, I think you're basically carrying around an invisible sign that says, "This is not the true church."

 

I want to say the above in as kind and gentle away as possible ❤️ Respond when you're in a good place, if you wish 🙂

Edited September 29, 2023 by Leaf474