The LDS and Revival

[webbles]

25 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Very interesting link 🙂 Does Nelson say, “Thus saith the Lord God”?

That's part of the debate on when does the prophet speak as a prophet and when does he speak as a man.  It has been a long time since one of the prophets have said "Thus saith the Lord God".  Joseph Smith did it multiple times and I believe Brigham Young and John Taylor as well.  I'm not sure about the next few but I don't think it has happened since.  The last canonized revelation text is D&C 138 in 1918 and it doesn't say "Thus saith the Lord".  And the last canonized revelation is Official Declaration 2 in 1978.  I'm separating them because D&C 138 includes text that we teach and learn from.  Official Declaration 2 is a declaration that a revelation was received but there isn't any revealed text.

I think most members would agree that when the prophet speaks in General Conference, then he is speaking for God and is just as authoritative as the Bible.  And I think most members would also agree that when a member of the First Presidency or a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles speaks in General Conference, then they are speaking for God.  This is because we sustain all of them as prophets.  Our church lessons includes discussion on the talks in General Conference in a similar fashion as we discuss the canonized scriptures (Bible, Book of Mormon, D&C, and Pearl of Great Price).  Outside of General Conference, I think it might be a little less agreement.  Though I was recently in a Stake Conference where the Area Authority present taught that the prophet's instagram page was just as authoritative as his words in General Conference.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I no longer believe in a one true church.

I believe in the best paradigm (hypothesis/path) for mankind to believe, about faith and morals, and God about which I have received spiritual experiences which indicate that a Supreme Being desires for me to follow this path.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Vanguard said:

Who said anything about it being someone's job? And yet here we are in good faith trying to figure out the distinction.

Your good faith attempt -

So can God be sufficiently satisfied with someone who believes they have covenanted with Him such that they are granted this "continual and increasing witness" you speak of and all the while not receive the LDS baptism? If your answer is no, I know several Christians who fervently believe otherwise. What is our answer to this?

I am the only one who brought up the “job” perspective and phrasing to focus on principles rather than people (I am trying to differentiate between having the gift and feeling the Spirit, not between those who have the gift -- our formal term for a specific privilege -- and those who feel the power without the gift).

I think God is “sufficiently satisfied” that people of faith, both those who fervently believe differently than I do and the same, are doing the best we can with what we’ve got, so my answer would be, “Yes.” I think He is completely or fully satisfied with Jesus’ Atonement, which buys us all some time to do the best we can with what we’ve got (privileged or not), and which additionally offers us opportunity and grace to enjoy all that He is willing to give us according to our Church’s beliefs.

Using a scriptural phrase, He is “well pleased” with His Son who ensured that everything is in place for Him to be well pleased with us also, through the merits of His Son. He is happy with us while we come unto Christ, and sorrowful when we fall short of the glory, hence “sufficiently satisfied” until we are perfected. This would include anyone who believes that God is as well pleased with them as He is with His Son in connection with their finished experience with the Spirit or the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

That's part of the debate on when does the prophet speak as a prophet and when does he speak as a man.  It has been a long time since one of the prophets have said "Thus saith the Lord God".  Joseph Smith did it multiple times and I believe Brigham Young and John Taylor as well.  I'm not sure about the next few but I don't think it has happened since.  The last canonized revelation text is D&C 138 in 1918 and it doesn't say "Thus saith the Lord".  And the last canonized revelation is Official Declaration 2 in 1978.  I'm separating them because D&C 138 includes text that we teach and learn from.  Official Declaration 2 is a declaration that a revelation was received but there isn't any revealed text.

I think most members would agree that when the prophet speaks in General Conference, then he is speaking for God and is just as authoritative as the Bible.  And I think most members would also agree that when a member of the First Presidency or a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles speaks in General Conference, then they are speaking for God.  This is because we sustain all of them as prophets.  Our church lessons includes discussion on the talks in General Conference in a similar fashion as we discuss the canonized scriptures (Bible, Book of Mormon, D&C, and Pearl of Great Price).  Outside of General Conference, I think it might be a little less agreement.  Though I was recently in a Stake Conference where the Area Authority present taught that the prophet's instagram page was just as authoritative as his words in General Conference.

Proclamation on the family?

I don't care much about categories like that usually- to ME I am more believing in what the Boss tells ME.

Anyone can say YOU MUST FOLLOW ME!  

I go by what the Boss tells me.

I mean he's the guy who signs the checks, right? 😜

[Leaf474]

56 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I believe in the best paradigm (hypothesis/path) for mankind to believe, about faith and morals, and God about which I have received spiritual experiences which indicate that a Supreme Being desires for me to follow this path.

What kinds of spiritual experiences, if you don't mind my asking about them?

 

I'm interested because when I've looked at other versions of Christianity and also other religions, I often come across stories of people who have had a particular experience that they are confident was God telling them to join that particular group.

[Leaf474]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Proclamation on the family?

I don't care much about categories like that usually- to ME I am more believing in what the Boss tells ME.

Anyone can say YOU MUST FOLLOW ME!  

I go by what the Boss tells me.

I mean he's the guy who signs the checks, right? 😜

The Boss being God? Nelson?

[CV75]

28 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

What kinds of spiritual experiences, if you don't mind my asking about them?

 

I'm interested because when I've looked at other versions of Christianity and also other religions, I often come across stories of people who have had a particular experience that they are confident was God telling them to join that particular group.

When someone is confident that God is telling them to join a particular group, what else are they to do but join that group? God will bless them for their uprightness of heart and will steer them to better choices as He sees fit. 

[Leaf474]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

When someone is confident that God is telling them to join a particular group, what else are they to do but join that group? God will bless them for their uprightness of heart and will steer them to better choices as He sees fit. 

Definitely. Are the Saints okay with the idea of God telling people to join something else?

[Calm]

Just now, Leaf474 said:

Definitely. Are the Saints okay with the idea of God telling people to join something else?

Some of us are and some not in my experience. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Leaf474 said:

What kinds of spiritual experiences, if you don't mind my asking about them?

 

I'm interested because when I've looked at other versions of Christianity and also other religions, I often come across stories of people who have had a particular experience that they are confident was God telling them to join that particular group.

I have been told not to share them here, by a poster you would never believe would say that.

"If you tell people that story, no one will believe it"

I ain't doin' that HERE no mo.  Disgusting someone would say that.

It was strong and had to be, it changed my life.  But I SERIOUSLY NEEDED TO KNOW, AND HAD FAITH THAT I COULD.

[mfbukowski]

31 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Are the Saints okay with the idea of God telling people to join something else?

No.

Most are literal Fundamentalists, and do not understand that for some, one needs to find their own path, even though Moroni 10:4-5, James 1:5, and Alma 32, among others, clearly preach the opposite.

They tend not to believe their own scriptures.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

When someone is confident that God is telling them to join a particular group, what else are they to do but join that group?

They come to this board and want to know how to tell if a revelation is "genuine", and often get talked out of it by some here.

Is murder for fun good or bad?

How do you know?

You just do.

Edited September 28, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Navidad]

9 hours ago, manol said:

Must admit I like feeling free to draw my circle of inclusion as big as I want. 

I like that. I really like the image that creates in my mind.

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

They come to this board and want to know how to tell if a revelation is "genuine", and often get talked out of it by some here.

Is murder for fun good or bad?

How do you know?

You just do.

I believe that God wanted me to join this group (the forum) so that I could learn from others. I have learned a lot. We do not believe that God wants us to join the LDS Church. We believed that God wanted us to worship, fellowship, and minister in our local LDS ward for as long as we are living here so that we could learn from others, grow through and enjoy fellowship, and minister so that the gifts He has given us could be used for His glory. How do we know all three? We just do.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Navidad

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

I believe that God wanted me to join this group (the forum) so that I could learn from others. I have learned a lot. We do not believe that God wants us to join the LDS Church. We believed that God wanted us to worship, fellowship, and minister in our local LDS ward for as long as we are living here so that we could learn from others, grow through and enjoy fellowship, and minister so that the gifts He has given us could be used for His glory. How do we know all three? We just do.

Ok.

Not quite sure what your point is, though.

[CV75]

22 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Definitely. Are the Saints okay with the idea of God telling people to join something else?

I think the Saints differ according to their understanding of what this means. It is not inconceivable to me that He wouldn't, but it is equally inconceivable to me that ultimately, He would [ETA: CORRECTION: wouldn't!] tell them to join our Church to fulfill His plan for all His children. But before He tells anyone anything, we either have to ask the question (seek, knock) or pick up on His invitation (open the door when He stands there and knocks).

Edited September 28, 2023 by CV75

[Navidad]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Ok.

Not quite sure what your point is, though.

I don't have a point. Just a musing as I thought about what you said and what our experience and reality is. I often am guilty of musing about things, sometimes out loud and sometimes on the keyboard!

[MustardSeed]

42 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I don't have a point. Just a musing as I thought about what you said and what our experience and reality is. I often am guilty of musing about things, sometimes out loud and sometimes on the keyboard!

In the spirit of transparency, when I read your post, I 1. Believed your experience. 2 . Assumed that your sub text was challenging the common LDS idea that God would never not want somebody to join his church, TCOJCOLDS

Edited September 28, 2023 by MustardSeed

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Ok.

Not quite sure what your point is, though.

Why does he have to have a point???

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Why does he have to have a point???

Okaaaayyy...

[Tacenda]

49 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Okaaaayyy...

People like to have a conversation w/o needing a point and we just talk as friends sometimes. I think you're a little hard on Navidad. Maybe I'm not reading in between the lines well enough. Or missed your point!

[Tacenda]

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I believe in the best paradigm (hypothesis/path) for mankind to believe, about faith and morals, and God about which I have received spiritual experiences which indicate that a Supreme Being desires for me to follow this path.

And believe it or not, I side with this. If I decided to return to any church it would be the LDS church possibly. But I really haven't been to many non LDS ones, and maybe should try to compare before saying that.

Organized religion bit me once by not giving full disclosure on it's history, so I'm guessing that will be the case across the board in other religions and I don't have trust in these organizations. I have PTSD from it all, the shock, the loss of identity, the friends/family lost, etc. from not believing in the church's fallible leaders and doctrine.

But maybe the Lord wanted me to go through this, so I would start actually having the faith of a mustard seed. Because at one time my faith was the size of the universe in the church and God/Jesus without really walking the walk or doing the work.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Tacenda

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

People like to have a conversation w/o needing a point and we just talk as friends sometimes. I think you're a little hard on Navidad. Maybe I'm not reading in between the lines well enough. Or missed your point!

Gotcha! Thanks for the clarification!

+1

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

And believe it or not, I side with this. If I decided to return to any church it would be the LDS church possibly. But I really haven't been to many non LDS ones, and maybe should try to compare before saying that.

Organized religion bit me once by not giving full disclosure on it's history, so I'm guessing that will be the case across the board in other religions and I don't have trust in these organizations. I have PTSD from it all, the shock, the loss of identity, the friends/family lost, etc. from not believing in the church's fallible leaders and doctrine.

But maybe the Lord wanted me to go through this, so I would start actually having the faith of a mustard seed. Because at one time my faith was the size of the universe in the church and God/Jesus without really walking the walk or doing the work.

Yes, most people here seem to have a similar background, and I have told my sweetheart that if I had been born "Mormon" I most likely would have left by now.

But I saw a PHILOSOPHY in "Mormonism" that justifies it all for me, and that is the Deification of Mankind and logical links to Humanism - like the suggestion that the Human Mind, in an anthropological understanding of man suggests that Humans, exalted or not, through their intelligences, have created the world as we know it using the tool of language.

Everything we know flows from human intelligence, including God AS the center of human intelligence.

Think of the "Light of Christ" - His human intelligence comprehending all that CAN be known- flowing out penetrating all universes.

THAT is what I saw, then had a spiritual experience- major- that this is where God wants me.

No, they don't teach this in Primary.

Yet.

😉

Edited September 28, 2023 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Navidad said:

I don't have a point. Just a musing as I thought about what you said and what our experience and reality is. I often am guilty of musing about things, sometimes out loud and sometimes on the keyboard!

Ok

I just don't usually think that way.

Like, I never read fiction, because to me it's "pointless". We have enough parables in scripture to challenge us to make into "points".

Maybe that IS the only fiction I read after all.  It wouldn't bother me either way.

It's BELIEF that makes it "real".

Perhaps Jesus never existed, but it's the BELIEF that "saves" us psychologically.

JESUS TAUGHT IN PARABLES, AND WE ARE TOLD THAT BELIEF SAVES US

We believe our sins are erased, and so they are

Phew.

That's one way to get rid of them.

Edited September 28, 2023 by mfbukowski