Tim Ballard

[Calm]

Exhibit N and O are blessings…yech

The only reference to tithing is what is quoted, but there could be a non searchable photo.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Calm

[ttribe]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

Indeed.

Same with the tithing records claim…my guess is there are at least a couple of reporters trying to contact after-hours Public Affairs or whatever they call it these days for a statement on this tidbit (as well as the Elder Andersen paragraph).

Pgs. 159-160. The tithing records thing was raised by Rawlings as something uncovered by his investigation during a December 22, 2022 meeting between Rawlings and T Ballard's legal counsel, according to a letter prepared by the law firm of Holland & Hart.

Edited November 4, 2023 by ttribe

[Calm]

This is the only thing so far from page 160:

 

 

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Pgs. 159-160. The tithing records thing was raised by Rawlings as something uncovered by his investigation during a December 22, 2022 meeting between Rawlings and T Ballard's legal counsel, according to a letter prepared by the law firm of Holland & Hart.

You beat me.

So no actual direct evidence provided.  Is Rawlings’ stuff the investigation trove?  Seems like if it (direct evidence) was in there, it would have been found already.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Calm

[ttribe]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

You beat me.

So no actual direct evidence provided.  Is Rawlings’ stuff the investigation trove?

I believe so, yes. I haven't looked at any of it, though.

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I believe so, yes. I haven't looked at any of it, though.

It was provided by someone…Fox news 13 maybe?

added:

https://www.fox13now.com/news/fox-13-investigates/full-documents-tim-ballard-lied-to-donors-according-to-ex-our-employees

my find on tithing was no go

Edited November 4, 2023 by Calm

[ttribe]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

It was provided by someone…Fox news 13 maybe?

Maybe.

[ttribe]

There are a number of emails to T Ballard's GMail account; perhaps a subpoena got those from Google.

Page 245 confirms the BOD did, in fact, ask for T Ballard's resignation; that settles that little bit of a question.

[Calm]

I am now going to walk away*** for the night.  Have fun.  

****From the digging, no way am I going to be able to stop myself from peeking in to see if someone has found something and commenting on it, lol.

Any self control disappears with the sunlight.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Calm

[helix]

3 hours ago, 2BizE said:

It looks like according to the updated lawsuit against Tim Ballard it states:

"The Davis County Investigation, according to OUR’s own internal documents, revealed that Elder M. Russell Ballard and other authorities from the Mormon Church, provided Mormon tithing records to OUR to help OUR target wealthy donors and wealthy Mormon Church Wards. Id. at p. 7, ¶ 58 (f)."

https://www.scribd.com/document/681863389/Amended-Complaint-in-Tim-Ballard-Case

This is disgusting that our church apostles would provide records on tithing from wealthy members and wealthy wards so OUR could target them for donations. SMAC97 can you please explain what these actions breach? Certainly a breach of confidence at a minimum.

I would personally be surprised if this is true at face value. Once thing we saw from Ensign Peak leak is that only the First Presidency has access to tithing financials. Apparently Boyd K Packer went into Ensign Peak asking for financial to prepare in case he were to be the next church president, and they turned him away saying he wasn't authorized by the First Presidency.

I'd bet the truth is mushier, something like "Elder Ballard knew of some rich members and suggested them to OUR". What very likely didn't happen is "Elder Ballard went to SLC HQ, asked for a list of rich church members from tithing records, then got a copy of those financials, and handed them over to OUR"

Edited November 4, 2023 by helix

[ttribe]

19 minutes ago, helix said:

I would personally be surprised if this is true at face value. Once thing we saw from Ensign Peak leak is that only the First Presidency has access to tithing financials. Apparently Boyd K Packer went into Ensign Peak asking for financial to prepare in case he were to be the next church president, and they turned him away saying he wasn't authorized by the First Presidency.

I'd bet the truth is mushier, something like "Elder Ballard knew of some rich members and suggested them to OUR". What very likely didn't happen is "Elder Ballard went to SLC HQ, asked for a list of rich church members from tithing records, then got a copy of those financials, and handed them over to OUR"

As a financial clerk, I could have gotten you any ward members' donation history. EP is under the purview of the Presiding Bishopric. Individual donation records are easy to obtain. 

[helix]

2 hours ago, ttribe said:

As a financial clerk, I could have gotten you any ward members' donation history. EP is under the purview of the Presiding Bishopric. Individual donation records are easy to obtain. 

For your ward yes. For other wards? No.

Do you have any evidence that it's easy to obtain financials for other wards' donations? 

Overall though, this whole thing is looking muddy. The timeline best I can understand:

• Davis County Attorney Troy Rawlings investigated OUR
• OUR was furious with Rawlings for this, and the two sides butted heads
• Rawlings met with OURs legal team on December 22nd 2022. OUR's legal team records that Rawlings told them OUR received tithing records from the church (one of about 14 things alleged). OUR's legal team immediately stated these claims had no evidence. Specifically, "far-fetched allegations were ridiculous and unsupported by any evidence".
• OUR's legal team sent a documented complaint to Sean Reyes in April 2023 about their recollection of Rawlings's allegations and asked the state to investigate Rawlings
• The women in the lawsuit against Tim Ballard got that April 2023 document, then stated "LDS Elder M. Russell Ballard and other authorities from the Mormon Church provided Mormon tithing records to OUR to help OUR target wealthy donors and wealthy Mormon Church Ward".
• Rawlings stopped his investigations without any charges.

The lawsuit skims over some key facts, 1) Their evidence for this tithing claim is literally hearsay, 2) The lawsuit claims Elder Ballard gave tithing records to OUR and uses as evidence OUR's legal team's documents which immediately rejected that claim.

Edited November 4, 2023 by helix

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

Better one!

https://ewscripps.brightspotcdn.com/51/05/6beb18d74504af701f9e5e578d00/0d5a9092199d4d4ba8d4bb7059ba307b.pdf

I wonder what "keeping the powder dry" means in Glen's email to Tim. And it seems Glen is  caught up in Visions of Glory speak as well. He mentions darkness too. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I wonder what "keeping the powder dry" means in Glen's email to Tim. And it seems Glen is  caught up in Visions of Glory speak as well. He mentions darkness too. 

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/keep-one-s-powder-dry
 

Quote

Stay alert, be careful, as in Go ahead and take on the opposition, but keep your powder dry. This colloquial expression, which originally alluded to keeping gunpowder dry so that it would ignite, has been used figuratively since the 1800s but today is less common than take care.

My guess is he was advising Tim Ballard not to act right away, but to be ready to act as soon as they had information they could act on.

Beck himself spoke too soon and made himself look like a fool (as in deceived).  He deleted his tweet (I think it was on Twitter/X) but not before it was copied for posterity.

I can’t remember last time I have heard that phrase…probably a movie that includes muskets where it actually meant keep the powder dry.  It falls in the same category as “don’t fire till you see the whites of their eyes” for me.  Not surprising Beck likes to use it.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/don-t-fire-until-you-see-the-whites-of-their-eyes

Edited November 4, 2023 by Calm

[morgan.deane]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/keep-one-s-powder-dry
 

My guess was he was advising Ballard not to act right away, but to be ready to act as soon as they had information they could act on.

Beck himself spoke too soon and made himself look like a fool (as in deceived).

I heard the phrase keep your powder dry many times in the military. It just means to delay taking your shot or making a final decision.

Since Tim Ballard started vigorously defending himself within days, such as that video of him in Boston just a few days after this blew up, he seems to have ignored that advice. But if he weren't a vainglorious person he wouldn't have gotten himself in this trouble in the first place so I'm not surprised he couldn't exercise some patience, or "keep his powder dry." 

[Diamondhands69]

2 hours ago, helix said:

I'd bet the truth is mushier, something like "Elder Ballard knew of some rich members and suggested them to OUR". What very likely didn't happen is "Elder Ballard went to SLC HQ, asked for a list of rich church members from tithing records, then got a copy of those financials, and handed them over to OUR

 

Probably closer to the truth if it did happen. 
 M R Ballard has his own history of securities fraud long ago so it’s not like he is above doing something like this. 

I can tell you LDs philanthropy services has a target list of rich lds. Members they wine/dine to try and get them to leave their estate to the church. They are very proactive.  Maybe if there is a list, that’s where it came from, they know all the rich targets. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Diamondhands69

[helix]

27 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

I can tell you LDs philanthropy services

This rings to me as a straightforward plausible option.

Elder Ballard gave OUR a list of folks who routinely contribute to LDS philanthropies.

Rawlings got word of this, who told OUR's legal team, who wrote a document to Sean Reyes stating their recollection of that meeting. Somewhere along the way this got twisted to "tithing records" of "wealthy donors".

Quote

Members they wine/dine

I really hope the wine isn't there.

Edited November 4, 2023 by helix

[mtomm]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Beck may have latched on to him and Elder Andersen is too kind to dump him…Beck seems to have the ….guts to do something like that.  Elder Andersen may compartmentalize the religious side of Beck from the political.  I went to a faculty dinner with Beck as the speaker at UVU and he gave a speech I would have little problems with if I had never heard of him, iirc.  It was pro education for most of it.  I could have been acquaintances with that side of Beck while no thanks to the political/history interpreting etc side of him.  Beck reminded me in that moment of one of my relatives.  Avoid politics and he is fun to be around.  He is active in a number of good works without political agendas and I can support him fully in those.

I couldn’t compartmentalize Beck these days though, not for a long time.

I can't imagine anyone having the number of an apostle without them expressly wanting you to have it.

How come  Glenn  hasn't been told to contact his local leaders for guidance like would happen to all us other members?

I also know that when someone doesn't really want to talk to you they'll let the call go to voicemail. Pretty soon you get the hint. Elder Anderson isn't being bothered by Glenn Beck unless he is choosing to be. 

 

 

[Diamondhands69]

3 minutes ago, helix said:

This rings to me as a straightforward plausible option.

Elder Ballard gave OUR a list of folks who routinely contribute to LDS philanthropies.

Rawlings got word of this, who told OUR's legal team, who wrote a document to Sean Reyes stating their recollection of that meeting. Somewhere along the way this got twisted to "tithing records" of "wealthy donors".

Very possible - this is where the real rich Mormons donate untaxed income to the church. 
 

We have clients who we facilitate the transactions for as well, but they are not even close to the net worth lds philanthropic services is dealing with. Donating stock is a fantastic way to pay tithing, get some write offs etc and pay zero tax. 

[Calm]

11 hours ago, mtomm said:

Elder Anderson isn't being bothered by Glenn Beck unless he is choosing to be. 

I agree if Beck is telling the truth.  Beck is a storyteller.  I don’t know if he tells stories in private, but my guess is he does (because of other storytellers I know).

And I assume apostles have learned the art of saying “no”.  If the phone was actually called and answered, Elder Andersen probably thought it was a good idea to pick it up for some reason.

Elder Andersen may have gotten to know Beck back when he was a new member and less extreme.  Beck had an unusual story and he was making the rounds for a bit iirc as a new convert, as new converts with unusual and noteworthy stories sometimes do.  It would not surprise me if close connections were made then.  Beck could turn on a softer side of him (haven’t seen it for sometime, but I usually avoid him because I like my drama in fictional settings) and maybe he is more that way in his personal relationships.

It would also not surprise me if they met at a church event and it was seen as mutually beneficial.  Beck is or was influential in and out of the Church with a significant percentage imo.  In 2010, he was in Time’s list of top 100 leaders according to wiki.  

Elder Andersen may not be someone who ignores old friends or acquaintances just because they have gone off the deep end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-bxJOrSAgA

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Calm

[mtomm]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

I agree if Beck is telling the truth.  Beck is a storyteller.  I don’t know if he tells stories in private, but my guess is he does.

And I assume apostles have learned the art of saying “no”.  If the phone was actually called and answered, Elder Andersen probably thought it was a good idea to pick it up for some reason.

Elder Andersen may have gotten to know Beck back when he was a new member and less extreme.  Beck had an unusual story and he was making the rounds for a bit iirc as a new convert, as new converts with unusual and noteworthy stories sometimes do.  It would not surprise me if close connections were made then.  Beck could turn on a softer side of him (haven’t seen it for sometime, but I usually avoid him because I like my drama in fictional settings) and maybe he is more that way in his personal relationships.

It would also not surprise me if they met at a church event and it was seen as mutually beneficial.  Beck is or was influential in and out of the Church with a significant percentage imo.  In 2010, he was in Time’s list of top 100 leaders according to wiki.  

Elder Andersen may not be someone who ignores old friends or acquaintances just because they have gone off the deep end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-bxJOrSAgA

 

Or they do have a close relationship which we have more evidence than your theory, since we've seen pics  with Elder Ballard and Tim Ballard and AG Reyes. 

The only reason some have a problem with this relationship now is because Tim is a POS. But others have always seen these types of relationships with Church leaders as a problem. 

See: Lynn Packer

The fact that I, a lowly nobody with no special knowledge or need to know, knew at least 2 years ago that TB and OUR were up to no good should set off some alarm bells somewhere. 

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, mtomm said:

Or they do have a close relationship which we have more evidence than your theory, since we've seen pics  with Elder Ballard and Tim Ballard and AG Reyes. 

The only reason some have a problem with this relationship now is because Tim is a POS. But others have always seen these types of relationships with Church leaders as a problem. 

See: Lynn Packer

The fact that I, a lowly nobody with no special knowledge or need to know, knew at least 2 years ago that TB and OUR were up to no good should set off some alarm bells somewhere. 

I knew too, and it was like a large wedge put in between my sister and her husband and I when I let it fly about Tim Ballard being investigated by Troy Rawlings whom we know. Our relationship hasn't been the same since. I read Tim's FB profile of his posts and several hearts were given which were from my sister and other people I know last August. I'm sure this news isn't sitting well, but I haven't spoken to my sister for a while. It's like a cult following, my own son and another sibling a brother, is in the cult as well. I'm so devastated.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Tacenda

[CA Steve]

To paraphrase a quote attributed to Twain, it's easier to create heroes than it is to dethrone them. Just look at those trying to still defend TB here on this board, despite the overwhelming evidence. Makes you wonder which of our historical heroes were not who we thought they were.

 

[Chum]

4 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

To paraphrase a quote attributed to Twain, it's easier to create heroes than it is to dethrone them. ... Makes you wonder which of our historical heroes were not who we thought they were.

Yeah. I came to the conclusion that the hero thing is problematic, possibly doing more harm than good.

It furthers an existing problem where we don't consider conflicting aspects. Instead, we amplify stuff we like and then play Mental Twister to ignore what we don't. This is so dumb. We turn complex people (everyone) into simplistic constructs that get blown over by the right breeze - shocking everyone around.

[mtomm]

40 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I knew too, and it was like a large wedge put in between my sister and her husband when I let it fly about Tim Ballard being investigated by Troy Rawlings whom we know. Our relationship hasn't been the same since. I read Tim's FB profile of his posts and several hearts were given which were from my sister and other people I know as near as last August. I'm sure this news isn't sitting well, but I haven't spoken to my sister for a while. It's like a cult following, my own son and another sibling a brother, is in the cult as well. I'm so devastated.

I am so sorry. It is a very sad situation.