Tim Ballard

[smac97]

On 10/26/2023 at 6:51 AM, Teancum said:

I don't know that it is all religions. I think the more conservative and literal religions tend to maybe not attract more weirdos but incubate them.

I think most philosophical and belief systems are susceptible to substantial distortion and misuse.  I also think that discussions about "weirdos" in religious groups are prone to sampling errors.  It's the weirdos that get media coverage and public attention, the proverbial "man bites dog"-style stories.  I live in Utah County, and know and regularly interact with all sorts of run-of-the-mill Latter-day Saints, and here and there some "weirdos."  As to the latter, my sense is that their weirdness arises out of some combination of a variety of influences, including

A) conflating sociopolitical beliefs/opinions/trends with, or prioritizing them over obedience to, the commandments of God;

B) taking a "salad bar" approach to prophetic counsel;

C) being unduly influenced by voices claiming some sort of alternative and superior authority and/or wisdom to that of the leaders of the Church;

D) being unduly prone to acting based on fear and/or anger; and

E) having and propagating and acting pursuant to "a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge" (Rom. 10:2).

There are pretty good reasons why Latter-day Saints are rather heavily over-represented in federal agencies like the FBI, CIA, NSA and so on.  Normative observance of the doctrines of the Church yield people who are generally decent, well-educated, hard-working, devoted to their country, not prone to the use of intoxicants or mind-altering substances, less prone to sexual profligacy, more prone to a stable family life, and so on.  The Latter-day Saints are, of course, far from perfect, but their errors are far more likely to arise from them acting in contravention to, rather than in conformity with, the teachings of the Church.

On 10/26/2023 at 6:51 AM, Teancum said:

Mormonism is a literal religion. It has doctrines on end times that are pretty literal.

I'm not quite sure what you mean here.  Could you elaborate?  It seems like most religions are "literal" in the sense of claiming to have access to transcendent, but unverifiable, truths.  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints claims this, but it is also a very practical religion.  The Word of Wisdom is practical.  Food storage and emergency preparedness is practical.  Encouragement to get an education and work hard is practical.  Counsel to minimize/avoid debt is practical.  Obedience to the laws of the land is practical.  The Law of Chastity is practical.  Rendering service to those in need is practical.

On 10/26/2023 at 6:51 AM, Teancum said:

There is this idea the the church and someone riding in on a white horse will save the church and the USA. 

The so-called White Horse Prophecy has, I think, very little cachet or influence in the Church.  See, e.g., this 2010 statement from the Church:

Quote

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is politically neutral and does not endorse or promote any candidate, party or platform. Accordingly, we hope that the campaign practices of political candidates would not suggest that their candidacy is supported by or connected to the church.

"The so-called 'White Horse Prophecy' is based on accounts that have not been substantiated by historical research and is not embraced as Church doctrine."

See also here.

Don't get me wrong.  The Latter-day Saints embrace all sorts of claims to miraculous events, both past, present and future.  We believe in a literal Jesus Christ, literal miracles, literal angelic visitations, literal physical artifacts (the Gold Plates), a literal physical resurrection, literal perpetuation of life and associations after this life, and so on.  We perform literal (but still symbolic) rituals with the expectation that they will have actual salvific effect.  

And yet, for all that, we still work, pay taxes, watch TV, and in general live fairly normal and benign lives.  We don't cloister ourselves or live in remote communes.  The leaders of the Church have regularly - and emphatically - provided reasoned counsel against excesses (acting in violation of the law, stockpiling weapons/ammunition, get-rich-quick schemes, etc.).

On 10/26/2023 at 6:51 AM, Teancum said:

There is the idea that we can all have visions and revelations, 

I think "visions" are generally not expected (nor frequently sought).  "Revelations," on the other hand, sure.

On 10/26/2023 at 6:51 AM, Teancum said:

Sure it is a minority but the list of wack jobs using LDS doctrine to create delusions of grandeur and and up doing harmful things is not short.

There is the risk of a sampling error here.  Julie Rowe, the "Preparing a People" yahoos (including, notably, Chad Daybell), Tim Ballard, Ammon Bundy, and a few others come to mind.  But this list does seem pretty "short."

Thanks,

-Smac

[Pyreaux]

So, lets suppose I've not been keeping up with this... Is Tim Ballard certifiably Excommunicated? If so, was it for Name Dropping church leaders or he went too far with practicing and implementing the Couples Ruse? I'm kind of been reserving judgement because there seemed to be a political motive with its timing, and I hoped the Women will win or lose their lawsuit, so there'll be some evidence instead of hearsay. Have things changed?

Edited October 27, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Tacenda]

10 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

So, lets suppose I've not been keeping up with this... Is Tim Ballard certifiably Excommunicated? If so, was if for Name Dropping church leaders or he went too far with practicing and implementing the Couples Ruse? I'm kind of been reserving judgement because there seemed to be a political motive with its timing, and I hoped the Women will win or lose their lawsuit, so there'll be some evidence instead of hearsay. Have thing changed much?

I haven't seen anything in the news as of late, wondering myself.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

9 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

So, lets suppose I've not been keeping up with this... Is Tim Ballard certifiably Excommunicated? If so, was if for Name Dropping church leaders or he went too far with practicing and implementing the Couples Ruse? I'm kind of been reserving judgement because there seemed to be a political motive with its timing, and I hoped the Women will win or lose their lawsuit, so there'll be some evidence instead of hearsay. Have thing changed much?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12602137/amp/Has-Tim-Ballard-EXCOMMUNICATED-Anti-child-trafficking-activist-portrayed-Jim-Caviezel-Sound-Freedom-Mormon-church-records-accused-sexual-misconduct.html
 

Summarizes evidence. Screenshot of leaked church record with no Tim. Statement from family that confirms contact with local church leaders, doesn’t deny excommunication, and asks for privacy. 
 

Seems highly likely he was exed. Reasons for this are pure speculation, but in my speculation name dropping wouldn’t be sufficient for the church’s response. 

[Pyreaux]

15 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12602137/amp/Has-Tim-Ballard-EXCOMMUNICATED-Anti-child-trafficking-activist-portrayed-Jim-Caviezel-Sound-Freedom-Mormon-church-records-accused-sexual-misconduct.html
 

Summarizes evidence. Screenshot of leaked church record with no Tim. Statement from family that confirms contact with local church leaders, doesn’t deny excommunication, and asks for privacy. 
 

Seems highly likely he was exed. Reasons for this are pure speculation, but in my speculation name dropping wouldn’t be sufficient for the church’s response. 

While not a good sign, excommunication is not always evidence based, per se? You can get excommunicated for giving the church a bad reputation. I think once you get convicted of something big or embarrassing, and depending if its publicly known, you can proclaim your innocence, you maybe wrongly convicted, but you'll still get exed when the gavel drops.

[Tacenda]

33 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12602137/amp/Has-Tim-Ballard-EXCOMMUNICATED-Anti-child-trafficking-activist-portrayed-Jim-Caviezel-Sound-Freedom-Mormon-church-records-accused-sexual-misconduct.html
 

Summarizes evidence. Screenshot of leaked church record with no Tim. Statement from family that confirms contact with local church leaders, doesn’t deny excommunication, and asks for privacy. 
 

Seems highly likely he was exed. Reasons for this are pure speculation, but in my speculation name dropping wouldn’t be sufficient for the church’s response. 

Not many have been publicly denounced in the church. Less than 5 I'm thinking.

[Calm]

On 10/27/2023 at 10:52 AM, smac97 said:

But this list does seem pretty "short."

Those in the news…yes, a short list 

Visiting online places like LDSFF and digging into AVOW and the formerly named Preparing a People has left me with the impression there are likely thousands convinced they are on the better, more spiritual path. As to those who believe they are having visions of this type (end times, NDEs, etc), I would not be surprised if there are hundreds. 

That is still a very small percentage though.  Say there are 2000 claiming visions out there.  There are over 6 million Saints in the US.  Probably less than .03% are getting an into the weeds with this if I did the math right.  This is closer to a random quess, of course. I am putting this up to add some concreteness.

There is probably a handful of people though who have a collection of people seeing them as their version of a prophet that include more than themselves and maybe a few family members.  

Schizophrenia is around 1% of the population in comparison.  It would be useful probably to see how much overlap there is. These may in part be simply people who have mental and emotional health issues which create a sense of otherworldliness, have vision like experiences, etc who latch on to LDS beliefs as a way to make sense of their experience rather than there being a causal relationship.  If they were to be exposed to other ideas that can make a confusing life seem more coherent, they may go that route. 

We would need some major, rigorous studies imo to convince me that LDS have a higher than normal rate of this stuff given one of the biggest risk factors of mental health issues is drug  alcohol use and active LDS and others who are still most comfortable with living that standard even if they have left the Church have an advantage over those who indulge.  Other risks factors may be alleviated by our church welfare system in that there may be some protection from homelessness and poverty. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Calm

[the narrator]

On 10/26/2023 at 6:51 AM, Teancum said:

I think the more conservative and literal religions tend to maybe not attract more weirdos but incubate them. Mormonism is a literal religion.  It has doctrines on end times that are pretty literal 

Ya think?

https://www.eastidahonews.com/2023/10/doomsday-family-from-arizona-last-seen-in-idaho-with-teen-they-believe-is-chosen-of-god-his-father-is-desperate-for-answers/

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Not many have been publicly denounced in the church. Less than 5 I'm thinking.

What do you mean by this?  For apostasy or anything?

There have been quite a few that got publicly denounced due to fraud that that used the Church iirc. 

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, the narrator said:

Ya think?

https://www.eastidahonews.com/2023/10/doomsday-family-from-arizona-last-seen-in-idaho-with-teen-they-believe-is-chosen-of-god-his-father-is-desperate-for-answers/

My guess is the brother and sister were involved in AVOW and/or Preparing a People. No mention of them yet though, so they may have gone there on their own. 
 

I want to look at their bookcases and search history. 
 

2015 is when Julie Rowe was big iirc. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Calm

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

What do you mean by this?  For apostasy or anything?

There have been quite a few that got publicly denounced due to fraud that that used the Church iirc. 

A statement in the news like was done with Tim Ballard.

[Tacenda]

deleted

Edited October 27, 2023 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

25 minutes ago, Calm said:

My guess is the brother and sister were involved in AVOW and/or Preparing a People. No mention of them yet though, so they may have gone there on their own. 
 

I want to look at their bookcases and search history. 
 

2015 is when Julie Rowe was big iirc. 

Why has Thom Harrison not been disciplined like Julie Rowe, since he is the person in "Visions of Glory". And that book has wrought so much harm already.

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

A statement in the news like was done with Tim Ballard.

Ballard was somewhat unique as I don’t remember any statement that seemed so personal and emotional, but if just statements made in the news, I came across some for affinity fraud, so if you add in the notable ones for apostasies, it must be more than 5. I will try to think up a way to find some.

[Tacenda]

At the beginning it says Tim Ballard would say to the woman/women that if something were to happen to his wife Kathryn, he would marry them. That makes me worry that Kathryn would be susceptible to getting harmed or even dying. Thinking Chad Daybell here, since both were into the book, "Visions of Glory". 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps00Y_6sC88&list=PLq34QmiHsNjdSYebjG7e6ftoildD1Sp5W&index=317

Breaking Silence Part 4: Examining 5 Women’s Claims Against Tim Ballard! [RFM: 314]

[Teancum]

17 hours ago, the narrator said:

Ya think?

https://www.eastidahonews.com/2023/10/doomsday-family-from-arizona-last-seen-in-idaho-with-teen-they-believe-is-chosen-of-god-his-father-is-desperate-for-answers/

Yep.  ANother wack job with teachings that have their roots in Mormonism.

[smac97]

18 hours ago, Calm said:

Those in the news…yes, a short list 

Visiting online places like LDSFF and digging into AVOW and the formerly gf named Preparing a People has left me with the impression there are likely thousands convinced they are on the better, more spiritual path. As to those who believe they are having visions of this type (end times, NDEs, etc), I would not be surprised if there are hundreds. 

Oi:

Quote

A Mormon mother allegedly took off with her 16-year-old son — who she reportedly believes has been chosen by God in the Second Coming of Christ — before the teen was found safe thousands of miles away from their Arizona home.

Blaze Thibaudeau, his mother Spring Thibaudeau, his sister Abi Snarr, 23, and his uncle Brooke Hale had traveled to Idaho from Arizona after buying thousands of dollars worth of survival gear, according to East Idaho News.

Ben Thibaudeau reported his son missing and believed he may be in danger because his mother “sees him as a Davidic servant who plays a significant role in the Savior’s return.”

“They feel they needed to take him to an undisclosed location where he would receive his calling and understand his role in the Second Coming,” the worried dad told the local outlet.

“I fear for his safety, especially if my son is contentious, rebellious or belligerent. I fear that my brother-in-law would restrain him or do something that would incapacitate him.”

But after the four family members hadn’t been heard from since Monday, Blaze Thibaudeau, who is legally required to return to his dad, was found safe in Alaska by border patrol agents at the Alcan Port of Entry, according to the Gilbert Police Department.

Spring Thibaudeau became interested in the Second Coming of Christ in 2015 until a point of obsession, according to her husband.

She also engaged in energy healing sessions, which caused him to become concerned.

Ben Thibaudeau suggested they “talk to our ecclesiastical leader,” and their bishop advised Spring to “stop if she wanted the marriage to survive,” the father revealed.

Spring Thibaudeau became interested in the Second Coming of Christ in 2015 until a point of obsession, according to her husband.

She reportedly took a step back from the energy healings — which is discouraged by the church’s handbook — but eventually started having dreams and drew their daughter into her obsession, Ben Thibaudeau claimed.

Both women started having dreams and they felt the need to start stocking up on emergency supplies.

“She started spending a significant amount of money on food prep. She was buying a lot of winter gear, even though we live in Arizona. She was buying tents. She was convinced that the saints would have to gather in the last days up in the mountains, and she was preparing for that,” Ben Thibaudeau revealed.
...
Thibaudeau reiterated that none of them are bad people — even going as far as to say they are “all wonderful people” — but he is worried the “dark topics has really corrupted them in a really horrible way.”

“But they are genuinely just loving, kind people.”

Thanks,

-Smac

[Teancum]

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

I think most philosophical and belief systems are susceptible to substantial distortion and misuse. 

Certainly any such system can be distorted and abused.  And let me also qualify to say that by far the majority of practicing Latter-day Saints are wonderful peaceful people that are not at all like minority that tend to go off the deep end.  That said I do not see similar aberrations of extremism in more mainline religious practices as I do in Mormonism and other conservative religions that focus strongly on end time prophecies, doomsday scenarios, claims of personal direction and revelations from God and so on.

 

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

 

I also think that discussions about "weirdos" in religious groups are prone to sampling errors.

 

 

It's the weirdos that get media coverage and public attention, the proverbial "man bites dog"-style stories.  I live in Utah County, and know and regularly interact with all sorts of run-of-the-mill Latter-day Saints, and here and there some "weirdos."  As to the latter, my sense is that their weirdness arises out of some combination of a variety of influences, including

Could be.  But do you see as many wack job stories of extremism and even murderous and very bad behavior from mainline religious adherents like Catholics, Methodists, Baptists and so on?  I don't but if could be I am just not paying attention.  Yet here is another extremist with roots in Mormonism.  How many is this in the past few years?

https://www.eastidahonews.com/2023/10/doomsday-family-from-arizona-last-seen-in-idaho-with-teen-they-believe-is-chosen-of-god-his-father-is-desperate-for-answers/

 

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

A) conflating sociopolitical beliefs/opinions/trends with, or prioritizing them over obedience to, the commandments of God;

Seems pretty rampant in Mormonism.

 

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

B) taking a "salad bar" approach to prophetic counsel;

Seems very rampant in Mormonism.  Especially those that tilt more extreme on either spectrum of politics.  Heck just look at the right wing nut jobs that are melting down over the church's denunciation of Tim Ballard.  And how about during Covid?

 

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

C) being unduly influenced by voices claiming some sort of alternative and superior authority and/or wisdom to that of the leaders of the Church;

Happens a lot in Mormonism.  Not so much in mainline religions. 

 

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

D) being unduly prone to acting based on fear and/or anger; and

Dear mongering among the extremists that have Mormonism in their background are very fear based in their motivation.

 

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

E) having and propagating and acting pursuant to "a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge" (Rom. 10:2).

There are pretty good reasons why Latter-day Saints are rather heavily over-represented in federal agencies like the FBI, CIA, NSA and so on.  Normative observance of the doctrines of the Church yield people who are generally decent, well-educated, hard-working, devoted to their country, not prone to the use of intoxicants or mind-altering substances, less prone to sexual profligacy, more prone to a stable family life, and so on.  The Latter-day Saints are, of course, far from perfect, but their errors are far more likely to arise from them acting in contravention to, rather than in conformity with, the teachings of the Church.

As noted, by far most Latter-day Saints are good moral people.  But I do believe if one scans the history of the Church from inception there is a disproportionate amount of splinter groups, individuals claiming special revelation,visions, callings from God and so on.  Such people have based such things on organizing splinter groups, justifying extreme behavior, and so on.  Heck just look at the FIRM Foundation, AVOW and so on.  Many fringe groups have conferences that have featured nut jobs like Chad Daybell, Jodie Hildebrandt, Tom Harrison, Tim Ballard and on and on.  Such events are well attended and big money makers. 

 

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

I'm not quite sure what you mean here.  Could you elaborate?  It seems like most religions are "literal" in the sense of claiming to have access to transcendent, but unverifiable, truths.  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints claims this, but it is also a very practical religion.  The Word of Wisdom is practical.  Food storage and emergency preparedness is practical.  Encouragement to get an education and work hard is practical.  Counsel to minimize/avoid debt is practical.  Obedience to the laws of the land is practical.  The Law of Chastity is practical.  Rendering service to those in need is practical.

Mormonism is an end times religion. It was founded on the belief that it was a literal restoration of original Christianity.  This to prepare the world for the second coming of Jesus Christ.  The early members believed that were literally preparing for the tribulation of the end times and literally gathering Israel to Zion. They tried to build Zion and the New Jerusalem. Visions, revelations, new scripture and all is the basis of the religion. Joseph Smith struggled with adherent to his apocalyptical new religion who claimed special revelation and visions outside of his authority. At his death there were a number of splinter groups, some claiming special revelations and visions.  This has continued not infrequently, through the entire history of Mormonism.  Just look at the numerous fundamental polygamists' groups. Some of which have been rather violent.  And over the past for years there are numerous incidents of preppers, violence based on a belief of special revelation, knowledge, visions and so on.  All with their roots in Mormonism.

 

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

The so-called White Horse Prophecy has, I think, very little cachet or influence in the Church.  See, e.g., this 2010 statement from the Church:

Yet among extremists it is alive and well. One wonders at the fact that church leaders have taken membership actions against more liberal progressives like Same Young and Natasha Helfer yet, other than Tim Ballard (and I think the church statement was issued because Elder Ballard was pretty cozy with Tim Ballard and they were doing damage control) they do nothing.  And a number of therapist, like Tom Harrison, author of Visions of Glory, and Jodi Hildebrandt, are on the list of recommended therapists for LDS bishops.  And both these two are whack jobs.  Harrison even has influence on mental health issues and full time missionaries. Based on what I know about him he should not have such influence and likely should not be a practicing mental health therapist.

 

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

See also here.

Don't get me wrong.  The Latter-day Saints embrace all sorts of claims to miraculous events, both past, present and future.  We believe in a literal Jesus Christ, literal miracles, literal angelic visitations, literal physical artifacts (the Gold Plates), a literal physical resurrection, literal perpetuation of life and associations after this life, and so on.  We perform literal (but still symbolic) rituals with the expectation that they will have actual salvific effect.  

And yet, for all that, we still work, pay taxes, watch TV, and in general live fairly normal and benign lives.  We don't cloister ourselves or live in remote communes.  The leaders of the Church have regularly - and emphatically - provided reasoned counsel against excesses (acting in violation of the law, stockpiling weapons/ammunition, get-rich-quick schemes, etc.).

I think "visions" are generally not expected (nor frequently sought).  "Revelations," on the other hand, sure.

There is the risk of a sampling error here.  Julie Rowe, the "Preparing a People" yahoos (including, notably, Chad Daybell), Tim Ballard, Ammon Bundy, and a few others come to mind.  But this list does seem pretty "short."

Thanks,

-Smac

I concede your second paragraph mostly.  But it really does not matter. Mormonism provides a pathway for a disproportionate number of individuals taken it to extremes. And the results often become very harmful actions and behavior.  And the leadership, other than a few general statements, and  the Tim Ballard damage control move, are relatively silent about such things. Yet they are happy to tell members not to listen to apostate non believers about things religious and call disaffected members lazy learners.  Yet how many progressives that had membership actions had behavior that lead to murder and death and other harmful actions?

[Calm]

From LDSFF…don’t have time to go back and find a link..but the mom or brother apparently put out two videos…

From the videos,the mom got first into Julie Rowe and then went to Evangelical End Times sites/preachers/whatever.  I don’t know if she explains the Davidic Servant connection with her son.  The uncle has money and has been supporting them in this….if it is more than the $50,000 they ran with, I don’t know anything more than what I just posted.

I am helping out with a costume for one of my grands, so will likely look up more stuff late tonight, but not before.  

Edited October 28, 2023 by Calm

[ttribe]

FYI regarding Thibaudeau - U.S. Border Patrol caught them at the Eastern Alaska border yesterday. The young man is safe and everyone else was arrested.

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, ttribe said:

FYI regarding Thibaudeau - U.S. Border Patrol caught them at the Eastern Alaska border yesterday. The young man is safe and everyone else was arrested.

https://www.azfamily.com/2023/10/27/gilbert-teen-found-alaska-after-reportedly-being-taken-by-doomsday-family/

[Teancum]

On 10/27/2023 at 2:52 PM, Calm said:

Those in the news…yes, a short list 

Good point.

 

On 10/27/2023 at 2:52 PM, Calm said:

Visiting online places like LDSFF and digging into AVOW and the formerly gf named Preparing a People has left me with the impression there are likely thousands convinced they are on the better, more spiritual path. As to those who believe they are having visions of this type (end times, NDEs, etc), I would not be surprised if there are hundreds. 

Even better point. These fringy alt right dooms day groups seem pretty popular amongst many Latter-day Saints. Far more popular then Dehlin's and others Thrive.

 

On 10/27/2023 at 2:52 PM, Calm said:

That is still a very small percentage though.  Say there are 2000 claiming visions out there.  There are over 6 million Saints in the US.  Probably less than .03% are getting an into the weeds with this if I did the math right.  This is closer to a random guess, of course. I am putting this up to add some concreteness.

Yes I agree. But do you see this among more mainline Christian sects?  I don't. I do among very conservative right wing evangelical types though.

On 10/27/2023 at 2:52 PM, Calm said:

There is probably a handful of people though who have a collection of people seeing them as their version of a prophet that include more than themselves and maybe a few family members.  

Schizophrenia is around 1% of the population in comparison.  It would be useful probably to see how much overlap there is. These may in part be simply people who have mental and emotional health issues which create a sense of otherworldliness, have vision like experiences, etc who latch on to LDS beliefs as a way to make sense of their experience rather than there being a causal relationship.  If they were to be exposed to other ideas that can make a confusing life seem more coherent, they may go that route. 

We would need some major, rigorous studies imo to convince me that LDS have a higher than normal rate of this stuff given one of the biggest risk factors of mental health issues is drug  alcohol use and active LDS and others who are still most comfortable with living that standard even if they have left the Church have an advantage over those who indulge.  Other risks factors may be alleviated by our church welfare system in that there may be some protection from homelessness and poverty. 

Not unfair.  However, can you find similar things among more mainstream sects?

[Teancum]

On 10/27/2023 at 4:04 PM, Tacenda said:

Why has Thom Harrison not been disciplined like Julie Rowe, since he is the person in "Visions of Glory". And that book has wrought so much harm already.

Exactly!!

[Teancum]

59 minutes ago, ttribe said:

FYI regarding Thibaudeau - U.S. Border Patrol caught them at the Eastern Alaska border yesterday. The young man is safe and everyone else was arrested.

Good news!!

[smac97]

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Certainly any such system can be distorted and abused.  And let me also qualify to say that by far the majority of practicing Latter-day Saints are wonderful peaceful people that are not at all like minority that tend to go off the deep end.  That said I do not see similar aberrations of extremism in more mainline religious practices as I do in Mormonism and other conservative religions that focus strongly on end time prophecies, doomsday scenarios, claims of personal direction and revelations from God and so on.

I have previously commented on the tendency for media coverage to emphasize this or that whackadoo's religious affiliation in news coverage when said whakadoo is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but I don't know how common that angle is explored/emphasized when the individual is a member of a "more mainline religious" group.

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Quote

I also think that discussions about "weirdos" in religious groups are prone to sampling errors.
...

It's the weirdos that get media coverage and public attention, the proverbial "man bites dog"-style stories.  I live in Utah County, and know and regularly interact with all sorts of run-of-the-mill Latter-day Saints, and here and there some "weirdos."  As to the latter, my sense is that their weirdness arises out of some combination of a variety of influences, including

Could be.  But do you see as many wack job stories of extremism and even murderous and very bad behavior from mainline religious adherents like Catholics, Methodists, Baptists and so on? 

Your question does not address the sampling error issue I raised previously, or the issue above (particularized emphasis on religious affiliation when the whackjob is a Latter-day Saint).

I'm not inclined to draw significant conclusions based on popular news coverage, as there is often a "thumb on the scales."

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I don't but if could be I am just not paying attention. 

I assume you are familiar with, or at least have heard of, the Magdarame in in the Philippines, and their regular (as in every year) practices involving crucifixion, self-flagellation, etc.?

Self-flagellation was a fairly common public spectacle when I served as a missionary in Taiwan (see, e.g., here and here (NSFW)).  It was, I understand, a Taoist folk religion phenomenon.

This story states that "{a}llegations of sex abuse by ministers against children in the Methodist Church have been well documented since widespread reports of abuse first surfaced many years ago."

This story states that "{a} total of about 380 Baptist Ministers, Deacons, and unpaid volunteers have faced allegations of sexual misconduct, and more than half have already been convicted, according to an investigation by the Houston Chronicle and San Antonio Express News."

There have been all sorts of "doomsday prepper"-style individuals and groups, many of whose extremism is heavily influenced by religious sentiments.  Stockpiling ammo, buying and installing underground bunkers, even practicing with weapons and hand-to-hand combat techniques.  

And so on.  

I don't know that we can say that Latter-day Saints are more prone to sexual misconduct, or to religious extremism (of the Daybell/Rowe variety) than members of other religious groups.  

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Yet here is another extremist with roots in Mormonism.  How many is this in the past few years?

https://www.eastidahonews.com/2023/10/doomsday-family-from-arizona-last-seen-in-idaho-with-teen-they-believe-is-chosen-of-god-his-father-is-desperate-for-answers/

Isn't this a "man bites dog" story?

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

A) conflating sociopolitical beliefs/opinions/trends with, or prioritizing them over obedience to, the commandments of God;

Seems pretty rampant in Mormonism.

And outside of Mormonism.  I think all sorts of people are taking their moral cues and marching orders from sociopolitical sources and groups.

Meanwhile, however, the leaders of the Church regularly counsel us that "Wise men, good men, patriotic men are to be found in all communities, in all political parties..."

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

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B) taking a "salad bar" approach to prophetic counsel;

Seems very rampant in Mormonism. 

It's a common thing in pretty much all ideological groups.

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Especially those that tilt more extreme on either spectrum of politics.  Heck just look at the right wing nut jobs that are melting down over the church's denunciation of Tim Ballard.  And how about during Covid?

Again, that sampling error thing.  The squeaky wheels get lots of attention, but are they really numerically significant?

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

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C) being unduly influenced by voices claiming some sort of alternative and superior authority and/or wisdom to that of the leaders of the Church;

Happens a lot in Mormonism.  Not so much in mainline religions. 

Apart from our Catholic friends, I think contemporary "leaders" of various sects of Christianity to not really lay claim to particularized authority.  And I think plenty of members of "mainline religions" listen to and follow such alternative voices.

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

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D) being unduly prone to acting based on fear and/or anger;

Dear mongering among the extremists that have Mormonism in their background are very fear based in their motivation.

I agree.  Julie Rowe is a prime example of someone trading on fear and trepidation.  But I don't see such things from the Church itself.  

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

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E) having and propagating and acting pursuant to "a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge" (Rom. 10:2).

There are pretty good reasons why Latter-day Saints are rather heavily over-represented in federal agencies like the FBI, CIA, NSA and so on.  Normative observance of the doctrines of the Church yield people who are generally decent, well-educated, hard-working, devoted to their country, not prone to the use of intoxicants or mind-altering substances, less prone to sexual profligacy, more prone to a stable family life, and so on.  The Latter-day Saints are, of course, far from perfect, but their errors are far more likely to arise from them acting in contravention to, rather than in conformity with, the teachings of the Church.

As noted, by far most Latter-day Saints are good moral people. 

And I think the reason so many of them "are good moral people" are because they listen to the Brethren.  The natural and foreseeable results of living the life espoused in the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is "people who are generally decent, well-educated, hard-working, devoted to their country, not prone to the use of intoxicants or mind-altering substances, less prone to sexual profligacy," and so on.  

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

But I do believe if one scans the history of the Church from inception there is a disproportionate amount of splinter groups, individuals claiming special revelation, visions, callings from God and so on. 

I don't know what "disproportionate amount" means, and I don't know that your statement avoids sampling errors.  The FLDS folks splintered off from us around what, the 1890s-1930s?  And they weren't really numerically significant at the time.  More recently we've had Denver Snuffer, but his movement does not seem to be doing much these days.

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Such people have based such things on organizing splinter groups, justifying extreme behavior, and so on.  Heck just look at the FIRM Foundation, AVOW and so on. 

I am aware of them.  I think most Latter-day Saints either are not aware, or don't pay much attention to them.

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Many fringe groups have conferences that have featured nut jobs like Chad Daybell, Jodie Hildebrandt, Tom Harrison, Tim Ballard and on and on.  Such events are well attended and big money makers. 

In a Church of 17 million, seeing a few hundred folks to a few "{s}uch events" doesn't do much for me.  

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

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I'm not quite sure what you mean here.  Could you elaborate?  It seems like most religions are "literal" in the sense of claiming to have access to transcendent, but unverifiable, truths.  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints claims this, but it is also a very practical religion.  The Word of Wisdom is practical.  Food storage and emergency preparedness is practical.  Encouragement to get an education and work hard is practical.  Counsel to minimize/avoid debt is practical.  Obedience to the laws of the land is practical.  The Law of Chastity is practical.  Rendering service to those in need is practical.

Mormonism is an end times religion.

I don't know what this means.  

The Latter-day Saints focus on living decent and practical day-to-day lives.  

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

It was founded on the belief that it was a literal restoration of original Christianity.  This to prepare the world for the second coming of Jesus Christ.  The early members believed that were literally preparing for the tribulation of the end times and literally gathering Israel to Zion. They tried to build Zion and the New Jerusalem. Visions, revelations, new scripture and all is the basis of the religion. Joseph Smith struggled with adherent to his apocalyptical new religion who claimed special revelation and visions outside of his authority. At his death there were a number of splinter groups, some claiming special revelations and visions.  This has continued not infrequently, through the entire history of Mormonism.  Just look at the numerous fundamental polygamists' groups. Some of which have been rather violent.  And over the past for years there are numerous incidents of preppers, violence based on a belief of special revelation, knowledge, visions and so on.  All with their roots in Mormonism.

Sorry, but I won't go along with the allocation of blame that you seem to be proposing here.

The Church believes in many literally miraculous things.  It has its proverbial head in the clouds, but its feet remain on the ground.  The "fruits" of the Restored Gospel are best observed by watching people who follow the tenets of the Restored Gospel, not by watching those to materially stray from it.

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

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The so-called White Horse Prophecy has, I think, very little cachet or influence in the Church.  See, e.g., this 2010 statement from the Church:

Yet among extremists it is alive and well.

I don't know what this means.  And I don't know how you can quantify it.

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

One wonders at the fact that church leaders have taken membership actions against more liberal progressives like Same Young and Natasha Helfer yet, other than Tim Ballard (and I think the church statement was issued because Elder Ballard was pretty cozy with Tim Ballard and they were doing damage control) they do nothing. 

Julie Rowe was excommunicated.  So was Denver Snuffer.  Neither was anything close to "liberal progressives."

Again, you seem to rely heavily on anecdotal instances, which I think may be a substantial sampling error.

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

And a number of therapist, like Tom Harrison, author of Visions of Glory, and Jodi Hildebrandt, are on the list of recommended therapists for LDS bishops.  And both these two are whack jobs.  Harrison even has influence on mental health issues and full time missionaries. Based on what I know about him he should not have such influence and likely should not be a practicing mental health therapist.

CFR, please.

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

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Don't get me wrong.  The Latter-day Saints embrace all sorts of claims to miraculous events, both past, present and future.  We believe in a literal Jesus Christ, literal miracles, literal angelic visitations, literal physical artifacts (the Gold Plates), a literal physical resurrection, literal perpetuation of life and associations after this life, and so on.  We perform literal (but still symbolic) rituals with the expectation that they will have actual salvific effect.  

And yet, for all that, we still work, pay taxes, watch TV, and in general live fairly normal and benign lives.  We don't cloister ourselves or live in remote communes.  The leaders of the Church have regularly - and emphatically - provided reasoned counsel against excesses (acting in violation of the law, stockpiling weapons/ammunition, get-rich-quick schemes, etc.).

I concede your second paragraph mostly.  But it really does not matter.

I think it matters a lot.  You seem to be arguing from the margins.  The natural and foreseeable consequence of living the life of an observant Latter-day Saint tends to be that people live good, productive, enriched lives.  Yes, there are some on the margins to take things too far, who have "a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge" (Rom. 10:2), who end up dabbling in things that can have destructive effects.  But the same can and must be said for all ideological groups.  

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Mormonism provides a pathway for a disproportionate number of individuals taken it to extremes.  And the results often become very harmful actions and behavior. 

Teancum: "As noted, by far most Latter-day Saints are good moral people."

"by far..."

Also Teancum: "Mormonism provides a pathway for a disproportionate number of individuals taken it to extremes."

"disproportionate number..."

Your messaging here seems pretty . . . mixed.  According to you, Mormonism is producing "by far" a "good moral people," but this "really does not matter"?  I would think that this should matter a lot.

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

And the leadership, other than a few general statements, and  the Tim Ballard damage control move, are relatively silent about such things.

This is simply not so.  Pres. Oaks has spoken against extremism on a number of occasions.  See, e.g., this counsel:

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LDS apostle tells Mormons: Stock up on food, not ammo
Following Faith by Peggy Fletcher Stack

Published September 17, 2012 2:29 pm

LDS apostle Dallin H. Oaks cautioned Mormons against joining or supporting "right-wing groups who mistakenly apply prophecies about the last days to promote efforts to form paramilitary or other organizations."

Such groups could "undermine the authority of public officials," Oaks said Sunday at a regional Mormon conference broadcast from the Marriott Center on Brigham Young University's Provo campus, "in the event of extraordinary emergencies or even in cases of simple disagreement with government policy."

Latter-day Saints should not "substitute [their] own organizations for the political and military authorities put in place by constitutional government and processes," the apostle said.

After all, the LDS Church's food-storage program is about amassing a year's supply of food and water, Oaks reminded the thousands watching in the giant arena, not "arms and ammunition."

Also Elder Oaks:

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We must take care never to misuse spiritual gifts. As the Prophet Joseph Smith taught, when spiritual gifts “are applied to that which God does not intend, they prove an injury, a snare and a curse instead of a blessing.” (Teachings, p. 248.)
...

This power of discernment is essential if we are to distinguish between genuine spiritual gifts and the counterfeits Satan seeks to use to deceive men and women and thwart the work of God. The Prophet Joseph Smith said, “Nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the spirit of God.” (Teachings, p. 205.) He also taught that “no man nor sect of men without the regular constituted authorities, the Priesthood and discerning of spirits, can tell true from false spirits.” (Teachings, p. 213.)

Satan-inspired and man-made counterfeits of spiritual gifts have been present throughout our religious history. This is evident from the enchantments wrought by Pharoah’s sorcerers and magicians (see Ex. 7:11, 22; Ex. 8:7), and from Isaiah’s warnings against “wizards that peep, and that mutter” and “them that have familiar spirits” (Isa. 8:19). The Savior warned against false Christs and false prophets who “shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch, that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect … according to the covenant.” (JS—H 1:22.) The Apostle John said, “Try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” (1 Jn. 4:1.)

Also Elder Oaks:

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Gospel Hobbies

My first example concerns Satan’s efforts to corrupt a person who has an unusual commitment to one particular doctrine or commandment of the gospel of Jesus Christ. This could be an unusual talent for family history work, an extraordinary commitment to constitutional government, a special talent in the acquisition of knowledge, or any other special talent or commitment.

Elder Boyd K. Packer of the Quorum of the Twelve has likened the fulness of the gospel to a piano keyboard. He has told us that a person could be “attracted by a single key,” such as a doctrine he or she wants to hear “played over and over again. … Some members of the Church who should know better pick out a hobby key or two and tap them incessantly, to the irritation of those around them. They can dull their own spiritual sensitivities. They lose track that there is a fulness of the gospel … [which they reject] in preference to a favorite note. This becomes exaggerated and distorted, leading them away into apostasy” (Ensign, Dec. 1971, p. 42).

We could say of such persons, as the Lord said of the Shakers in a revelation given in 1831, “They desire to know the truth in part, but not all” (D&C 49:2). Beware of a hobby key. If you tap one key to the exclusion or serious detriment of the full harmony of the gospel keyboard, Satan can use your strength to bring you down.

Misapplication of Spiritual Gifts

Satan will also attempt to cause our spiritual downfall through tempting us to misapply our spiritual gifts. The revelations tell us that “there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God. … All these gifts come from God, for the benefit of the children of God” (D&C 46:11, 26). Most of us have seen persons whom the adversary has led astray through a corruption of their spiritual gifts. My mother shared one such example, something she observed while attending Brigham Young University many years ago.

A man who lived in a community in Utah had a mighty gift of healing. People sought him out for blessings, many coming from outside his ward and stake. In time, he almost made a profession of giving blessings. As part of his travels to various communities, he visited the apartments of BYU students, asking if they wanted blessings. This man had lost sight of the revealed direction on spiritual gifts: “always remembering for what they are given” (D&C 46:8). A spiritual gift is given to benefit the children of God, not to magnify the prominence or to gratify the ego of the person who receives it. The professional healer who forgot that lesson gradually lost the companionship of the Spirit and was eventually excommunicated from the Church.

A Desire to Know All

Another strength Satan can exploit is a strong desire to understand everything about every principle of the gospel. How could that possibly work to our detriment? Experience teaches that if this desire is not disciplined, it can cause some to pursue their searchings beyond the fringes of orthodoxy, seeking answers to obscure mysteries rather than seeking a firmer understanding and a better practice of the basic principles of the gospel.

Some seek answers to questions God has not chosen to answer. Others receive answers—or think they receive answers—in ways that are contrary to the order of the Church. For such searchers, Satan stands ready to mislead through sophistry or spurious revelation. Persons who hunger after a full understanding of all things must discipline their questions and their methods, or they can approach apostasy without even knowing it. It may be just as dangerous to exceed orthodoxy as it is to fall short of it. The safety and happiness we are promised lie in keeping the commandments, not in discounting or multiplying them.

A Desire to Be Led in All Things

Closely related to this example is the person who has a strong desire to be led by the Spirit of the Lord but who unwisely extends that desire to the point of wanting to be led in all things. A desire to be led by the Lord is a strength, but it needs to be accompanied by an understanding that our Heavenly Father leaves many decisions for our personal choices. Personal decision making is one of the sources of the growth we are meant to experience in mortality. Persons who try to shift all decision making to the Lord and plead for revelation in every choice will soon find circumstances in which they pray for guidance and don’t receive it. For example, this is likely to occur in those numerous circumstances in which the choices are trivial or either choice is acceptable.

We should study things out in our minds, using the reasoning powers our Creator has placed within us. Then we should pray for guidance and act upon it if we receive it. If we do not receive guidance, we should act upon our best judgment. Persons who persist in seeking revelatory guidance on subjects on which the Lord has not chosen to direct us may concoct an answer out of their own fantasy or bias, or they may even receive an answer through the medium of false revelation. Revelation from God is a sacred reality, but like other sacred things, it must be cherished and used properly so that a great strength does not become a disabling weakness.

Honors Can Sometimes Turn to Our Detriment

The honors we sometimes receive from our peers are potentially a strength, but we need to remember that Satan can turn these to our detriment also. We must be careful that we do not become like the prophet Balaam. The Apostle Peter said that Balaam “loved the wages of unrighteousness” (2 Pet. 2:15), which Elder Bruce R. McConkie of the Quorum of the Twelve interpreted as “the honors of men and the wealth of the world” (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1973, 3:361). Honors may come, but we should beware that they not deflect our priorities and commitments away from the things of God.

A Desire to Sacrifice More Than Is Needful

A willingness to sacrifice all we possess in the work of the Lord is surely a strength. In fact, it is a covenant we make in sacred places. But even this strength can bring us down if we fail to confine our sacrifices to those things the Lord and his leaders have asked of us at this time. We should say with Alma, “Why should I desire more than to perform the work to which I have been called?” (Alma 29:6). Persons who consider it insufficient to pay their tithes and offerings and to work in the positions to which they have been called can easily be led astray by cults and other bizarre outlets for their willingness to sacrifice more than is needful.

Social Consciousness Not Tempered by Other Values

Some persons have a finely developed social conscience. They respond to social injustice and suffering with great concern, commitment, and generosity. This is surely a spiritual strength, something many of us need in greater measure. Yet persons who have this great quality need to be cautious that it not impel them to overstep other ultimate values. My social conscience should not cause me to coerce others to use their time or means to fulfill my objectives. We are not blessed for magnifying our calling with someone else’s time or resources. We are commanded to love our neighbors, not to manipulate them, even for righteous purposes.

In the same way, we should not feel alienated from our Church or its leaders when they refrain from using the rhetoric of the social gospel or from allocating Church resources to purposes favored by others. We should remember that the Lord has given his restored Church a unique mission not given to others. The Church must concentrate its primary efforts on those activities that can only be accomplished with priesthood authority, such as preaching the gospel and redeeming the dead.

An Intense Focus on Goals

There is great strength in being highly focused on our goals. We have all seen the favorable fruits of that focus. Yet an intense focus on goals can cause a person to forget the importance of righteous means. When I was serving in a stake presidency, a man bragged to me about the way he had managed to preserve his goal of perfect attendance at our stake leadership meetings. On one occasion, he was required to report for work during one of our stake meetings. When the employer denied his request for permission to attend this Church meeting, he told me with pride that he “called in sick” so he could come anyway.

I kept an eye on that man after that. I wondered if he would steal money in order to pay his tithing. That may be an extreme example, but it illustrates the point I wish to make. We cannot be so concerned about our goals that we overlook the necessity of using righteous methods to attain them.

Popular Teachers and the Potential of Priestcraft

Another illustration of a strength that can become our downfall concerns charismatic teachers. With a trained mind and a skillful manner of presentation, teachers can become unusually popular and effective in teaching. But Satan will try to use that strength to corrupt teachers by encouraging them to gather a following of disciples. A Church teacher, Church Education System instructor, or Latter-day Saint university professor who gathers such a following and does this “for the sake of riches and honor” (Alma 1:16) is guilty of priestcraft. “Priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion” (2 Ne. 26:29).

Teachers who are most popular, and therefore most effective, have a special susceptibility to priestcraft. If they are not careful, their strength can become their spiritual downfall. They can become like Almon Babbitt, with whom the Lord was not pleased, because “he aspireth to establish his counsel instead of the counsel which I have ordained, even that of the Presidency of my Church; and he setteth up a golden calf for the worship of my people” (D&C 124:84).

Neglect or Distortion of Family Duties

The family, the most sacred institution in mortality, is a setting in which Satan is especially eager to use strengths to bring about our downfall. My first illustration under this heading is addressed to breadwinners. The Bible says it is a gift of God to rejoice in our labors (see Eccl. 5:19), but that gift can be corrupted. Our labors, and the prosperity and recognition we achieve by them, can easily become a god we place before him who said, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” (Ex. 20:3). Carried to excess, a love of and commitment to work can become an excuse to neglect family and Church responsibilities. Most of us could cite more than one illustration of that reality.

At an even more sensitive level, a man’s righteous desire to act in his position as a leader in his family, if not righteously exercised, can lead him into self-righteousness, selfishness, dictatorship, and even brutality. A timely warning against this danger is the Lord’s blunt instruction that it is the “nature and disposition” of those who have a little authority to “exercise unrighteous dominion” (D&C 121:39). We must all heed the direction that priesthood authority must be exercised “by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned” (D&C 121:41).

By the same token, a woman’s righteous and appropriate desires to grow, to develop, and to magnify her talents—desires strongly reinforced by current feminist teachings—also have their extreme manifestations, which can lead to attempts to preempt priesthood leadership, to the advocacy of ideas out of harmony with Church doctrine, or even to the abandonment of family responsibilities.

Excesses in Giving

Another area in which strengths can become our downfall concerns finances. We are commanded to give to the poor. Could the fulfillment of that fundamental Christian obligation be carried to excess? I believe it can. I have seen cases in which persons fulfilled that duty to such an extent that they impoverished their own families by expending resources of property or time that were needed for family members.

Perhaps this excess explains why King Benjamin, who commanded his people to impart of their substance to the poor—“feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally”—also cautioned them to “see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength” (Mosiah 4:26–27). Similarly, a revelation given to the Prophet Joseph Smith when he was translating the Book of Mormon cautioned him, “Do not run faster or labor more than you have strength and means provided to enable you to translate” (D&C 10:4).

Accomplishment and Pride

Other illustrations of how our strengths can become our downfall concern the activity of learning. A desire to know is surely a great strength. A hunger to learn is laudable, but the fruits of learning make a person particularly susceptible to the sin of pride. So do the fruits of other talents and accomplishments, such as in the fields of athletics or the arts. It is easy for the learned and the accomplished to forget their own limitations and their total dependence upon God.

Accomplishments in higher education bring persons much recognition and real feelings of self-sufficiency. But we should remember the Book of Mormon’s frequent cautions not to boast of our own strength or wisdom lest we be left to our own strength or wisdom (see Alma 38:11; Alma 39:2; Hel. 4:13; Hel. 16:15).

Similarly, in referring to “that cunning plan of the evil one,” the prophet Jacob remarked that when persons are “learned,” which means they have knowledge, “they think they are wise,” which means they think they have the capacity for the wise application of knowledge. Persons who think they are wise in this way “hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves.” In that circumstance, the prophet said, “their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish. But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God” (2 Ne. 9:28–29).

Distorted Faith

An unusual degree of faith in God, which is a genuine spiritual gift and strength, can be distorted so as to seriously detract from scholarly pursuits. I have known persons who began their academic studies with great momentum but, as time went by, did not continue to invest the necessary time in their studies. They supposed they had developed such great faith that if they simply did their Church work the Lord would bless them to achieve their academic objectives. In this way, the supposed strength of their faith became the cause of their academic downfall. We might say to them as the Lord said to Oliver Cowdery when he failed in his efforts to translate:

“It is because that you did not continue as you commenced. …

“You have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me. …

“You must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right” (D&C 9:5, 7–8; see also D&C 88:118).

Here the Lord counsels us on balance. Faith is vital, but it must be accompanied by the personal work appropriate to the task. Only then do we qualify for the blessing. The appropriate approach is to study as if everything depended upon us and then to pray and exercise faith as if everything depended upon the Lord.

Inordinate Church Service

A related strength that can be corrupted to our downfall is a desire to excel in a Church calling. I remember a graduate student who used his Church service as a means of escape from the rigors of his studies. He went beyond what we call Church-service time and became almost a full-time Church-service worker. He consistently volunteered for every extra assignment, giving help that was greatly appreciated in the various organizations and activities of the Church. As a result of this inordinate allocation of time, he failed in his studies and then mistakenly blamed his failure on the excessive burden of Church service. His strength became his downfall.

Similarly, I remember the concerns President Harold B. Lee expressed to me when I was president of BYU. Shortly before the Provo Temple was dedicated, he told me of his concern that the accessibility of the temple would cause some BYU students to attend the temple so often that they would neglect their studies. He urged me to work with the BYU stake presidents to make sure the students understood that even something as sacred and important as temple service needed to be done in wisdom and order so that students would not neglect the studies that should be the major focus of their time during their student years.

All-Consuming Patriotism

Love of country is surely a strength, but carried to excess it can become the cause of spiritual downfall. There are some citizens whose patriotism is so intense and so all-consuming that it seems to override every other responsibility, including family and Church. I caution those patriots who are participating in or provisioning private armies and making private preparations for armed conflict. Their excessive zeal for one aspect of patriotism is causing them to risk spiritual downfall as they withdraw from the society of the Church and from the governance of those civil authorities to whom our twelfth article of faith makes all of us subject.

Materialistic Self-Reliance

Another strength that can become our downfall stems from self-reliance. We are told to be self-reliant, to provide for ourselves and those dependent upon us. But success at that effort can easily escalate into materialism. This happens through carrying the virtue of “providing for our own” to the point of excessive concern with accumulating the treasures of the earth. I believe this relationship identifies materialism as a peculiar Mormon weakness, a classic example of how Satan can persuade some to drive a legitimate strength to such excess that it becomes a disabling weakness.

Not Really Following the Prophet

A desire to follow a prophet is surely a great and appropriate strength, but even this has its potentially dangerous manifestations. I have heard of more than one group so intent on following the words of a dead prophet that they have rejected the teachings and counsel of the living ones. Satan has used that corruption from the beginning of the Restoration. You will recall Joseph Smith’s direction for the Saints to gather in Kirtland, Ohio, then in Missouri, and then in Illinois. At each place along the way, a certain number of Saints fell away, crying “fallen prophet” as their excuse for adhering to the earlier words and rejecting the current direction. The same thing happened after the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith, when some Saints seized upon one statement or another by the deceased Prophet as a basis for sponsoring or joining a new group that rejected the counsel of the living prophets.

Following the prophet is a great strength, but it needs to be consistent and current, lest it lead to the spiritual downfall that comes from rejecting continuous revelation. Under that principle, the most important difference between dead prophets and living ones is that those who are dead are not here to receive and declare the Lord’s latest words to his people. If they were, there would be no differences among the messages of the prophets.

A related distortion is seen in the practice of those who select a few sentences from the teachings of a prophet and use them to support their political agenda or other personal purposes. In doing so, they typically ignore the contrary implications of other prophetic words, or even the clear example of the prophet’s own actions. For example, I have corresponded with several Church members who sought to use something President Ezra Taft Benson was quoted as saying as a basis for refusing to file an income tax return or to pay income taxes.

I have tried to persuade these persons that their interpretation cannot be what President Benson intended, because all who have held that sacred office, and all of the General Authorities, have faithfully filed their income tax returns and paid the taxes required by law. The servants of God are under the Master’s commands to follow him and to be examples to the flock (see 1 Tim. 4:12; 1 Pet. 5:3). We should interpret their words in the light of their works. To wrest the words of a prophet to support a private agenda, political or financial or otherwise, is to try to manipulate the prophet, not to follow him.

Misapplication of Love and Tolerance

Other strengths that can be used for our downfall are the gifts of love and tolerance. Clearly, these are great virtues. Love is an ultimate quality, and tolerance is its handmaiden. Love and tolerance are pluralistic qualities—encompassing all—and that is their strength, but it is also the source of their potential distortion. Love and tolerance are incomplete unless they are accompanied by a concern for truth and a commitment to the unity that God has commanded of his servants.

Carried to an undisciplined excess, love and tolerance can produce indifference to truth and justice, and opposition to unity. What makes mankind free from death and sin is not merely love but love accompanied by truth. “Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:32). And the test of whether we are the Lord’s is not just love and tolerance but unity. The risen Lord said, “If ye are not one ye are not mine” (D&C 38:27). To follow the Lord’s example of love, we must remember his explanation that “whom I love I also chasten” (D&C 95:1). And we must remember that he chastens us “that [we] might be one” (D&C 61:8).

Preventing Strengths from Becoming Our Downfall

As I conclude, I need to caution myself and each of my readers that the very nature of this message could tend to the same downfall that it warns against. The idea that our strengths can become our weaknesses could be understood to imply that we should have “moderation in all things.” But the Savior said that if we are “lukewarm,” he “will spue [us] out of [his] mouth” (Rev. 3:16). Moderation in all things is not a virtue, because it would seem to justify moderation in commitment. That is not moderation, but indifference. That kind of moderation runs counter to the divine commands to serve with all of our “heart, might, mind and strength” (D&C 4:2), to “seek … earnestly the riches of eternity” (D&C 68:31), and to be “valiant in the testimony of Jesus” (D&C 76:79). Moderation is not the answer.

How, then, do we prevent our strengths from becoming our downfall? The quality we must cultivate is humility. Humility is the great protector. Humility is the antidote against pride. Humility is the catalyst for all learning, especially spiritual things. Through the prophet Moroni, the Lord gave us this great insight into the role of humility: “I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them” (Ether 12:27).

We might also say that if men and women humble themselves before God, he will help them prevent their strengths from becoming weaknesses that the adversary can exploit to destroy them.

If we are meek and humble enough to receive counsel, the Lord can and will guide us through the counsel of our parents, our teachers, and our leaders. The proud can hear only the clamor of the crowd, but a person who, as King Benjamin said, “becometh as a child, submissive, meek, [and] humble” (Mosiah 3:19), can hear and follow the still small voice by which our Father in Heaven guides his children who are receptive.

Those who engage in self-congratulation over a supposed strength have lost the protection of humility and are vulnerable to Satan’s using that strength to produce their downfall. In contrast, if we are humble and teachable, hearkening to the commandments of God, the counsel of his leaders, and the promptings of his Spirit, we can be guided in how to use our spiritual gifts, our accomplishments, and all of our other strengths for righteousness. And we can be guided in how to avoid Satan’s efforts to use our strengths to cause our downfall.

In all of this, we should remember and rely on the Lord’s direction and promise: “Be thou humble; and the Lord thy God shall lead thee by the hand, and give thee answer to thy prayers” (D&C 112:10).

I testify that this is true, even as I testify of our Lord Jesus Christ, whose atoning sacrifice has brought to pass the Resurrection and will bring to pass all righteousness.

Also Elder Oaks:

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From among the chorus of voices we hear in mortality, we must recognize the voice of the Good Shepherd, who calls us to follow him toward our heavenly home.

As Paul said to the Corinthians, “There are … so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.” (1 Cor. 14:10.)

Some voices speak of the things of the world, providing the useful information we need to make our way in mortality. I will make no further reference to these voices. My remarks will refer to those voices that speak of God, of his commandments, and of the doctrines, ordinances, and practices of his church. Some of those who speak on these subjects have been called and given divine authority to do so. Others, whom I choose to call alternate voices, speak on these subjects without calling or authority.

In the five years since I was called as a General Authority, I have seen many instances where Church leaders and members have been troubled by things said by these alternate voices. I am convinced that some members are confused about the Church’s relationship to the alternate voices. As a result, members can be misled in their personal choices, and the work of the Lord can suffer.

Some alternate voices are those of well-motivated men and women who are merely trying to serve their brothers and sisters and further the cause of Zion. Their efforts fit within the Lord’s teaching that his servants should not have to be commanded in all things, but “should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness.” (D&C 58:27.)

Other alternate voices are pursuing selfish personal interests, such as property, pride, prominence, or power. Other voices are the bleatings of lost souls who cannot hear the voice of the Shepherd and trot about trying to find their way without his guidance. Some of these voices call out guidance for others—the lost leading the lost.

Some alternate voices are of those whose avowed or secret object is to deceive and devour the flock. The Good Shepherd warned, “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.” (Matt. 7:15; see also 3 Ne. 14:15.) In both the Bible and the Book of Mormon the Savior charged his shepherds to watch over and protect the flock from such wolves. (See Acts 20:28–29; Alma 5:59.)

There have always been alternate voices whose purpose or effect is to deceive. Their existence is part of the Plan. The prophet Lehi taught that there “must needs be … an opposition in all things.” (2 Ne. 2:11; italics added.) And there have always been other alternate voices whose purpose or effect is unselfish and wholesome.

In most instances, alternate voices are heard in the same kinds of communications the Church uses to perform its mission. The Church has magazines and other official publications, a newspaper supplement, letters from Church leaders, general conferences, and regular meetings and conferences in local units. Similarly, alternate voices are heard in magazines, journals, and newspapers and at lectures, symposia, and conferences.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not attempt to isolate its members from alternate voices. Its approach, as counseled by the Prophet Joseph Smith, is to teach correct principles and then leave its members to govern themselves by personal choices.

Also Elder Oaks:

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“When believers seek to promote their positions in the public square, their methods and their advocacy should always be tolerant of the opinions and positions of those who do not share their beliefs. We should not add to the extremism that divides our society. As believers we must always speak with love and show patience, understanding, and compassion toward our adversaries. Christian believers are under command to love their neighbors, to forgive, and to do good to those who despitefully use them. … As believers we should also frame our arguments and positions in ways that contribute to the reasoned discussion and accommodation that are essential to democratic government in a pluralistic society. By this means we will contribute to the civility that is essential to preserve our civilization.”

So has Elder Ballard:

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We must be careful where our footsteps in life take us. We must be watchful and heed the counsel of Jesus to His disciples as He answered these questions: “Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

“And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man [and I add woman] deceive you.”

Today I repeat earlier counsel from Church leaders.

• Brothers and sisters, keep the doctrine of Christ pure and never be deceived by those who tamper with the doctrine. The gospel of the Father and the Son was restored through Joseph Smith, the prophet for this last dispensation.

• Do not listen to those who have not been ordained and/or set apart to their Church calling and are not acknowledged by common consent of the members of the Church.

• Be aware of organizations, groups, or individuals claiming secret answers to doctrinal questions that they say today’s apostles and prophets do not have or understand.

• Do not listen to those who entice you with get-rich schemes. Our members have lost far too much money, so be careful.

In some places, too many of our people are looking beyond the mark and seeking secret knowledge in expensive and questionable practices to provide healing and support.

An official Church statement, issued one year ago, states: “We urge Church members to be cautious about participating in any group that promises—in exchange for money—miraculous healings or that claims to have special methods for accessing healing power outside of properly ordained priesthood holders.”

The Church Handbook counsels: “Members should not use medical or health practices that are ethically or legally questionable. Local leaders should advise members who have health problems to consult with competent professional practitioners who are licensed in the countries where they practice.”

Brothers and sisters, be wise and aware that such practices may be emotionally appealing but may ultimately prove to be spiritually and physically harmful.

Also Elder Ballard:

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When we think of false prophets and false teachers, we tend to think of those who espouse an obviously false doctrine or presume to have authority to teach the true gospel of Christ according to their own interpretation. We often assume that such individuals are associated with small radical groups on the fringes of society. However, I reiterate: there are false prophets and false teachers who have or at least claim to have membership in the Church. There are those who, without authority, claim Church endorsement to their products and practices. Beware of such.
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Therefore, let us beware of false prophets and false teachers, both men and women, who are self-appointed declarers of the doctrines of the Church and who seek to spread their false gospel and attract followers by sponsoring symposia, books, and journals whose contents challenge fundamental doctrines of the Church. Beware of those who speak and publish in opposition to God’s true prophets and who actively proselyte others with reckless disregard for the eternal well-being of those whom they seduce. Like Nehor and Korihor in the Book of Mormon, they rely on sophistry to deceive and entice others to their views. They “set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion” (2 Ne. 26:29).

Of such President Joseph F. Smith warned when he spoke of the “proud and self-vaunting ones, who read by the lamps of their own conceit; who interpret by rules of their own contriving; who have become a law unto themselves, and so pose as the sole judges of their own doings” (Gospel Doctrine, 381).

And Elder Cook:

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Looking beyond the Mark Is a Stumbling Block

The prophet Jacob referred to ancient Jews as “a stiffnecked people [who] despised … plainness, … killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall.”

While there are many examples of looking beyond the mark, a significant one in our day is extremism. Gospel extremism is when one elevates any gospel principle above other equally important principles and takes a position that is beyond or contrary to the teachings of Church leaders. One example is when one advocates for additions, changes, or primary emphasis to one part of the Word of Wisdom. Another is expensive preparation for end-of-days scenarios. In both examples, others are encouraged to accept private interpretations. “If we turn a health law or any other principle into a form of religious fanaticism, we are looking beyond the mark.”

Speaking of important doctrine, the Lord has declared, “Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me.” When we elevate any principle in a way that lessens our commitment to other equally important principles or take a position contrary to or which exceeds teachings of Church leaders, we are looking beyond the mark.

In addition, some members elevate causes, many of which are good, to a status superior to basic gospel doctrine. They substitute their devotion to the cause as their first commitment and relegate their commitment to the Savior and His teachings to a secondary position. If we elevate anything above our devotion to the Savior, if our conduct recognizes Him as just another teacher and not the divine Son of God, then we are looking beyond the mark. Jesus Christ is the mark!

And Elder Bednar:

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As we become more spiritually mature and increasingly steadfast and immovable, we focus upon and strive to understand the fundamental and foundational doctrines of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Disciples who are steadfast and immovable do not become fanatics or extremists, are not overzealous, and are not preoccupied with misguided gospel hobbies.

President Joseph F. Smith emphasized: “We frequently look about us and see people who incline to extremes, who are fanatical. We may be sure that this class of people do not understand the gospel. They have forgotten, if they ever knew, that it is very unwise to take a fragment of truth and treat it as if it were the whole thing” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], 122).

There are many more such examples.  

The Brethren have been quite clear on these things.  That some do not listen is unfortunate.

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Yet they are happy to tell members not to listen to apostate non believers about things religious and call disaffected members lazy learners.  Yet how many progressives that had membership actions had behavior that lead to murder and death and other harmful actions?

You are kind of proving my point.  You seem to be conflating sociopolitical ideology ("how many progressives...") with discipleship.  See also my comments about sampling errors.

Thanks,

-Smac