Tim Ballard

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Quote

Hyperbolic language is not unusual in a complaint.

Is it useful in your opinion?  

Not really.  Hyperbole will not generally not sway a judge, and the jury will likely never read the Complaint.

Hyperbole does tend to play better in the media, though.  

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

The complaints are read in court, right?  

They are filed with the court, yes.  The parties will read it.  The judge will read it, but it will be one of several hundred cases assigned to him, and one of many, many thousands of documents filed in those hundreds of cases.  

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Are they also available to juries (if used instead of a judge) when deliberating?  

I will defer to other attorneys on this question, but I doubt that the jury sees the Complaint.

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

That would make sense if so.  I have been just thinking of them as paperwork to get things going.

Yes, that's pretty much what it is.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I am almost through the first exhibit, as well. This is pretty disturbing stuff.

If you are reading the whole thing, I would appreciate you posting anything that is new and noteworthy (not graphic details that just add on to him being a jerk, to say it nicely).  I am being over cautious right now avoiding stuff that upsets me more than a little and that stuff pisses me off and disgusts me.

same to you, Smac. I figure you will read the whole thing.  

Edited October 10, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Don't know if that's particularly effective, at least not in all venues. A jury in Topeka, Kansas is very different from a jury in New York, New York.

It would annoy me, too manipulative. Would also make me wonder if the case was weak or the attorney just lazy trying to persuade through drama rather than evidence.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Calm

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

 

77. Ballard included his son, who had just returned from serving a mission for
the Mormon Church, to the strip clubs, without Ballard's wife's knowledge. 

It's getting worse by the minute, unbelievable. He may be mentally ill too. How did he get his son into these strip clubs I wonder, unless he's like a celebrity and get away with it.

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Not really.  Hyperbole will not generally not sway a judge, and the jury will likely never read the Complaint.

Hyperbole does tend to play better in the media, though.  

They are filed with the court, yes.  The parties will read it.  The judge will read it, but it will be one of several hundred cases assigned to him, and one of many, many thousands of documents filed in those hundreds of cases.  

I will defer to other attorneys on this question, but I doubt that the jury sees the Complaint.

Yes, that's pretty much what it is.

Thanks,

-Smac

Thank, Smac.  Always interesting to find out how things work.

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It's getting worse by the minute, unbelievable. He may be mentally ill too. How did he get his son into these strip clubs I wonder, unless he's like a celebrity and get away with it.

The son was an adult, returned missionary, he is even taller than his dad….I went to taking a minor too at first.

He must have gotten married young as he has 9 kids, 7 born to his wife, two adopted.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Calm

[Tacenda]

I see this often in Utah. It had or does have a problem with victims of sexual abuse wanting to report, for one, Utah had or has a problem with rape kits and not following through. 

https://www.ksl.com/article/50748147/utahns-most-vulnerable-to-sexual-assault-face-doubt-stigmas-in-reporting

Also, this just happened in Herriman, Utah and I believe is a huge problem that Tim Ballard and OUR seemed to miss, trafficking in the USA. 

https://www.ksl.com/article/50748508/herriman-man-charged-with-forcing-woman-into-prostitution

[smac97]

On 10/9/2023 at 7:25 PM, ttribe said:

Copy of the lawsuit for download:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/1h59g7k3vnlmkt88b8ab7/FILE_3727.pdf?rlkey=uouqwjqvs65q92gnq9vu7gdxc&dl=0

Wow.  This is . . . bad.  The allegations are alarming and disturbing, yes.  But the document, as a legal filing, is poorly drafted.  Badly drafted.

1. The cover sheet is a literal "Press Release."  And the content of the cover sheet veers into the emotional, dramatic, conclusory territory.

2. In Utah, as in most jurisdictions, a complaint is supposed to contain "a short and plain: (1) statement of the claim showing that the party is entitled to relief; and (2) demand for judgment for specified relief."  The Complaint at the above link is . . . not that:

• This Complaint is all over the place.  A good Complaint sets forth the who, what, when, where, and so on.  This Complaint is too long.  The factual narrative is unfocused and meandering. A good Complaint sets forth the who, what, when, where, and so on.  This Complaint does that, but just barely and quite poorly.
• Paragraphs 1-24 are fine. 
• Paragraphs 25-30 talk about Ballard and the corporate entities.  
• Paragraphs 31-36 repeats the same information as is stated in paragraphs 16-21. 
• Paragraphs 37-40 veer into OUR "ops," then paragraphs 41-59 goes back to describing Ballard and people/groups associated with him. 
• Paragraphs 60-62 talks about OUR's profits. 
• Paragraphs 63-110 describes, in vary broad and unfocused, almost haphazard ways, Ballard's misconduct while on "ops." 
• Paragraphs 111-118 describe disclosures to OUR and OUR's response. 
• Paragraphs 119-120 talk about victims coming forward and the Church "excommunicat{ing} Balalrd." 
• Paragraph 121 is a sheer assertion that the defendants (all of them, apparently) "engaged in a fraud in order to engage in sexual relations with the Plaintiffs."  (This is nowhere near sufficient.)
• It repeatedly veers into emotive/melodramatic (such as "Ballard became a character of mythical proportions with unquestioned legitimacy," "enhancing the credibility of Ballard to an almost Mother Teresa altitude" "victims ... are boldly coming forward" a quote from Carl Sagan). 
• It includes all sorts of allegations and anecdotes that have little or no relevance to the allegations of sexual misconduct.  These appear calculated to make the narrative sensationalized and inflammatory.
• The second cause of action (conspiracy) and third (fraud) and fourth (conspiracy again) are really poorly drafted.  Just rote recitations of the basic elements of those legal theories.  This does not work.  They will need to amend for these claims to survive.
• The twelfth cause of action (piercing the corporate veil) is, I think, a remedy, not a cause of action.

3. The exhibits (the statements from the alleged victims) are even worse.  They come across more as "stream of consciousness" narratives than affidavits or written declarations.  It looks like the lawyers just called the alleged victims and said "Hey, please write up a summary of what happened to you and email it over," and the women did that, and the lawyers just attached these statements as-is.  These women obviously don't know any better, but the lawyers do, or should.  These are messy, unfocused, vague, often very long, conclusory, and often hard to follow and understand.

4. Overall, I am surprised at the poor quality of the writing.  This complaint comes across as a first draft, maybe a second.  It should have gone through quite a bit more re-working and distillation before it was filed.  However, this will likely not matter in the end.  This is just to "get the ball rolling," and this document does that, I guess.  It looks like this may have been rushed so as to stay on the crest of public attention.  I hope the attorneys are more circumspect and detail-oriented going forward, and I hope they play this straight (that is, they should litigate this in court, and not the one "of Public Opinion).

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited October 11, 2023 by smac97

[Smiley McGee]

23 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Wow.  This is . . . bad.  The allegations are alarming and disturbing, yes.  But the document, as a legal filing, is poorly drafted.  Badly drafted.

1. The cover sheet is a literal "Press Release."  And the content of the cover sheet veers into the emotional, dramatic, conclusory territory.

2. In Utah, as in most jurisdictions, a complaint is supposed to contain "a short and plain: (1) statement of the claim showing that the party is entitled to relief; and (2) demand for judgment for specified relief."  The Complaint at the above link is . . . not that:

• This Complaint is all over the place.  A good Complaint sets forth the who, what, when, where, and so on.  This Complaint is too long.  The factual narrative is unfocused and meandering. A good Complaint sets forth the who, what, when, where, and so on.  This Complaint does that, but quite poorly.
• Paragraphs 1-24 are fine. 
• Paragraphs 25-30 talk about Ballard and the corporate entities.  
• Paragraphs 31-36 repeats the same information as is stated in paragraphs 16-21. 
• Paragraphs 37-40 veer into OUR "ops," then paragraphs 41-59 goes back to describing Ballard and people/groups associated with him. 
• Paragraphs 60-62 talks about OUR's profits. 
• Paragraphs 63-110 describes, in vary broad and unfocused, almost haphazard ways, Ballard's misconduct while on "ops." 
• Paragraphs 111-118 describe disclosures to OUR and OUR's response. 
• Paragraphs 119-120 talk about victims coming forward and the Church "excommunicat{ing} Balalrd." 
• Paragraph 121 is a sheer assertion that the defendants (all of them, apparently) "engaged in a fraud in order to engage in sexual relations with the Plaintiffs."  (This is nowhere near sufficient.)
• It repeatedly veers into emotive/melodramatic (such as "Ballard became a character of mythical proportions with unquestioned legitimacy," "enhancing the credibility of Ballard to an almost Mother Teresa altitude" "victims ... are boldly coming forward" a quote from Carl Sagan). 
• It includes all sorts of allegations and anecdotes that have little or no relevance to the allegations of sexual misconduct.  These appear calculated to make the narrative sensationalized and inflammatory.
• The second cause of action (conspiracy) and third (fraud) and fourth (conspiracy again) are really poorly drafted.  Just rote recitations of the basic elements of those legal theories.  This does not work.  They will need to amend for these claims to survive.
• The twelfth cause of action (piercing the corporate veil) is, I think, a remedy, not a cause of action.

3. The exhibits (the statements from the alleged victims) are even worse.  They come across more a "stream of consciousness" narratives than affidavits or written declarations.  It looks like the lawyers just called the alleged victims and said "Hey, please write up a summary of what happened to you and email it over," and the women did that, and the lawyers just attached these statements as-is.  These women obviously don't know any better, but the lawyers do, or should.  These are messy, unfocused, vague, often very long, conclusory, and often hard to follow and understand.

4. Overall, I am surprised at the poor quality of the writing.  This complaint comes across as a first draft, maybe a second.  It should have gone through quite a bit more re-working and distillation before it was filed.  However, this will likely not matter in the end.  This is just to "get the ball rolling," and this document does that, I guess.  It looks like this may have been rushed so as to stay on the crest of public attention.  I hope the attorneys are more circumspect and detail-oriented going forward, and I hope they play this straight (that is, they should litigate this in court, and not the one "of Public Opinion).

Thanks,

-Smac

Is it common for filings to include quotes of non-legal nature, much less Carl Sagan? That seemed strange and, frankly, unprofessional. 

[The Nehor]

25 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Wow.  This is . . . bad.  The allegations are alarming and disturbing, yes.  But the document, as a legal filing, is poorly drafted.  Badly drafted.

1. The cover sheet is a literal "Press Release."  And the content of the cover sheet veers into the emotional, dramatic, conclusory territory.

2. In Utah, as in most jurisdictions, a complaint is supposed to contain "a short and plain: (1) statement of the claim showing that the party is entitled to relief; and (2) demand for judgment for specified relief."  The Complaint at the above link is . . . not that:

• This Complaint is all over the place.  A good Complaint sets forth the who, what, when, where, and so on.  This Complaint is too long.  The factual narrative is unfocused and meandering. A good Complaint sets forth the who, what, when, where, and so on.  This Complaint does that, but quite poorly.
• Paragraphs 1-24 are fine. 
• Paragraphs 25-30 talk about Ballard and the corporate entities.  
• Paragraphs 31-36 repeats the same information as is stated in paragraphs 16-21. 
• Paragraphs 37-40 veer into OUR "ops," then paragraphs 41-59 goes back to describing Ballard and people/groups associated with him. 
• Paragraphs 60-62 talks about OUR's profits. 
• Paragraphs 63-110 describes, in vary broad and unfocused, almost haphazard ways, Ballard's misconduct while on "ops." 
• Paragraphs 111-118 describe disclosures to OUR and OUR's response. 
• Paragraphs 119-120 talk about victims coming forward and the Church "excommunicat{ing} Balalrd." 
• Paragraph 121 is a sheer assertion that the defendants (all of them, apparently) "engaged in a fraud in order to engage in sexual relations with the Plaintiffs."  (This is nowhere near sufficient.)
• It repeatedly veers into emotive/melodramatic (such as "Ballard became a character of mythical proportions with unquestioned legitimacy," "enhancing the credibility of Ballard to an almost Mother Teresa altitude" "victims ... are boldly coming forward" a quote from Carl Sagan). 
• It includes all sorts of allegations and anecdotes that have little or no relevance to the allegations of sexual misconduct.  These appear calculated to make the narrative sensationalized and inflammatory.
• The second cause of action (conspiracy) and third (fraud) and fourth (conspiracy again) are really poorly drafted.  Just rote recitations of the basic elements of those legal theories.  This does not work.  They will need to amend for these claims to survive.
• The twelfth cause of action (piercing the corporate veil) is, I think, a remedy, not a cause of action.

3. The exhibits (the statements from the alleged victims) are even worse.  They come across more a "stream of consciousness" narratives than affidavits or written declarations.  It looks like the lawyers just called the alleged victims and said "Hey, please write up a summary of what happened to you and email it over," and the women did that, and the lawyers just attached these statements as-is.  These women obviously don't know any better, but the lawyers do, or should.  These are messy, unfocused, vague, often very long, conclusory, and often hard to follow and understand.

4. Overall, I am surprised at the poor quality of the writing.  This complaint comes across as a first draft, maybe a second.  It should have gone through quite a bit more re-working and distillation before it was filed.  However, this will likely not matter in the end.  This is just to "get the ball rolling," and this document does that, I guess.  It looks like this may have been rushed so as to stay on the crest of public attention.  I hope the attorneys are more circumspect and detail-oriented going forward, and I hope they play this straight (that is, they should litigate this in court, and not the one "of Public Opinion).

Thanks,

-Smac

I read over some of it and I agree. This lawyer or possibly their staff are terrible at this. Typos all over, grammar errors, and the affadavits really need to be cleaned up. I am not in law but I worked jobs that were adjacent and if I were a judge and got this I would be annoyed. Most law student work is better than this.

[smac97]

22 minutes ago, Smiley McGee said:

Is it common for filings to include quotes of non-legal nature, much less Carl Sagan? That seemed strange and, frankly, unprofessional. 

In a complaint?  Yes, that's unusual.  The courts are not really there for us to play around in a philosophical sandbox.  In my experience, pleadings are, or should be, of the "Just the facts, ma'am" variety.

These attorneys didn't do themselves any favors in filing this.  They should be approaching this with every ounce of sobriety, seriousness and straight-shooting as they can muster.  Instead, their complaint is poorly drafted, almost immature.

And Tim Ballard's attorneys are likely going to say the same things I've noted above.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited October 11, 2023 by smac97

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, Smiley McGee said:

Is it common for filings to include quotes of non-legal nature, much less Carl Sagan? That seemed strange and, frankly, unprofessional. 

I rolled my eyes at the stupidity of whoever put that in. I really hope they didn’t file using one of the plaintiff’s relatives or something who has no idea what they are doing.

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I read over some of it and I agree. This lawyer or possibly their staff are terrible at this. Typos all over, grammar errors, and the affadavits really need to be cleaned up. I am not in law but I worked jobs that were adjacent and if I were a judge and got this I would be annoyed. Most law student work is better than this.

Yep.  I think this is mostly the work of Suzette Rasmussen.  She's been in practice 7 years, so I would have expected more of her by this stage of her career.  It may be that she just has not done that much civil litigation.  I hope she has the chops to see this case through.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

47 minutes ago, smac97 said:

hope she has the chops to see this case through.

Or gets someone to help if she doesn’t.

I know legal courts don’t always expose the truth of a situation, but I was hoping this would to a significant extent.

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

Quote

hope she has the chops to see this case through.

Or gets someone to help if she doesn’t.

Several other attorneys appear in the Complaint as co-counsel with her.  And despite that, the thing was still filed.

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

I know legal courts don’t always expose the truth of a situation, but I was hoping this would to a significant extent.

I hope she's not a fly-by-night, sue-'em-and-settle litigator, but that would sort of explain the poor quality of the complaint.  It was a formality to get them publicity, and its inflammatory allegations may be enough to get the parties to a private settlement.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

 

I hope she's not a fly-by-night, sue-'em-and-settle litigator, but that would sort of explain the poor quality of the complaint.  It was a formality to get them publicity, and its inflammatory allegations may be enough to get the parties to a private settlement.

Thanks,

-Smac

That was my thought after your post.  OUR depends on good will and reputation.  They are not going to survive imo if this goes on for very long.  Though a scattering of actors that pop up under new names that end up forming the same routine is likely.

I am hoping this gets the industry looking seriously at how they can be more effective and donators to accept less dramatic publicity, but more likely they just won’t donate.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Calm

[smac97]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

That was my thought after your post.  OUR depends on good will and reputation.  They are not going to survive imo if this goes on for very long.

A settlement would likely leave the allegations unexplored and unestablished.  Both sides may be strongly incentivized to pursue this.  The plaintiffs get paid without having to prosecute their case, and the defendants pay out with no adverse findings.  Meanwhile, the veracity of the allegations may end up remaining . . . unknown.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited October 11, 2023 by smac97

[MustardSeed]

30 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Meanwhile, the veracity of the allegations may end up remaining . . . unknown.

I probably would not share an elevator with the accused, regardless 😳

[Tacenda]

I mommy blogger's experience when T. Ballard asked her to volunteer on a raid. 

https://slate.com/human-interest/2021/05/sex-trafficking-raid-operation-underground-railroad.html

[pogi]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

A settlement would likely leave the allegations unexplored and unestablished.  Both sides may be strongly incentivized to pursue this.  The plaintiffs get paid without having to prosecute their case, and the defendants pay out with no adverse findings.  Meanwhile, the veracity of the allegations may end up remaining . . . unknown.

Thanks,

-Smac

It seems there could also be incentive to not settle.  Incentive can also include justice or to clear one’s name… 

There could be risks and benefits to either approach, but the guilty party has less incentive to try the case in court because the incentive of justice vanishes and clearing one’s name has a better chance in the court of public opinion where the veracity of claims remain unexamined. 

[pogi]

I haven't been following this thread closely, so maybe this has been discussed, but Ballard doesn't seem to deny knowing and working with these women to fight against human trafficking.  There doesn't seem to be any question that these women were engaged in anti-trafficking efforts.

How does Ballard explain his defense then that "they are baseless inventions designed to destroy me and the movement we have built to end the trafficking and exploitation of vulnerable children". 

5 women who fought against human trafficking are all seeking to destroy efforts to end the exploitation of vulnerable children?   That makes sense, how?

[The Nehor]

35 minutes ago, pogi said:

I haven't been following this thread closely, so maybe this has been discussed, but Ballard doesn't seem to deny knowing and working with these women to fight against human trafficking.  There doesn't seem to be any question that these women were engaged in anti-trafficking efforts.

How does Ballard explain his defense then that "they are baseless inventions designed to destroy me and the movement we have built to end the trafficking and exploitation of vulnerable children". 

5 women who fought against human trafficking are all seeking to destroy efforts to end the exploitation of vulnerable children?   That makes sense, how?

They were infiltrators from the Deep State, many of whom Tim Ballard picked himself.

Uh-oh, Tim Ballard is in on the conspiracy to discredit Tim Ballard. Must be that Tim Ballard’s Deep State clone picked those women!

[smac97]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I haven't been following this thread closely, so maybe this has been discussed, but Ballard doesn't seem to deny knowing and working with these women to fight against human trafficking. 

The identities of these women is presently unknown.  Ballard can likely piece together some or all of their identities, but he would have no reason to speak publicly about that at this point, and plenty of reasons not to.

1 hour ago, pogi said:

There doesn't seem to be any question that these women were engaged in anti-trafficking efforts.

I don't know about that.  Apart from their (anonymous) say-so, we have no evidence that they "were engaged in anti-trafficking efforts."

Moreover, the issue to be explored is likely not whether there were so engaged, but whether Ballard did the things they attribute to him.  Again, apart from their (anonymous) say-so, we don't have much evidence to substantiate the allegations.  So I think there is presently plenty of room for "question{s}" about the veracity of the allegations (from a legal perspective, anyway).

1 hour ago, pogi said:

How does Ballard explain his defense then that "they are baseless inventions designed to destroy me and the movement we have built to end the trafficking and exploitation of vulnerable children". 

Ballard presently has no reason to has out these allegations in the Court of Public Opinion, and plenty of reasons not to.  

1 hour ago, pogi said:

5 women who fought against human trafficking are all seeking to destroy efforts to end the exploitation of vulnerable children?   That makes sense, how?

As an abstraction, multiple allegations from different sources against the same target about the same (mis)conduct does look like it has a bolstering effect.  Nevertheless, I think we need to let the system do its thing. 

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

The identities of these women is presently unknown.  Ballard can likely piece together some or all of their identities, but he would have no reason to speak publicly about that at this point, and plenty of reasons not to.

I wonder if he was told the name of the women who accused him to OUR.  If so, there would be a very limited pool to draw possibilities from since iirc the statement says these women reported to OUR (assuming here there were more than 5, but probably not many more), and thought it would be addressed there while protecting OUR’s reputation so it could continue to do good work…but it wasn’t as he remained the face of OUR and was profiting still and in a position to continue to abuse women, though perhaps not in the same way.

If he starts naming names, that is going to backfire on him with a lot of women who will see that as putting these women and their families at risk, imo.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

How does Ballard explain his defense then that "they are baseless inventions designed to destroy me and the movement we have built to end the trafficking and exploitation of vulnerable children". 

5 women who fought against human trafficking are all seeking to destroy efforts to end the exploitation of vulnerable children?   That makes sense, how?

He claims (according to the women iirc) that they fell in love with him. If he is willing to accuse them of wanting to kill his wife, my guess is he will go to their anger at being rejected made them want to destroy him and his work.

The other option I would guess is they were bought by the dark side.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Calm