Tim Ballard

[smac97]

3 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Anyway- there is a lot of importance around being “right” and if he is proven guilty, people risk losing face. 

Do you see a "moral panic" component to recent narratives re: child trafficking?  Not to say the problem doesn't exist, but that aspects of it are being distorted, sensationalized, crafted, etc.?

[phaedrus ut]

Despite the denials the evidence also seems to be pointing to M. Russell Ballard and Tim Ballard having quite a few financial relationships. Which is ironic because Ballard began his career as an apostle with a few financial scandals. I don't see a easy way for the church to bail M. Russell Ballard out of this situation like they did with the Bountiful Regional Center. 

Phaedrus 

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, phaedrus ut said:

Despite the denials the evidence also seems to be pointing to M. Russell Ballard and Tim Ballard having quite a few financial relationships.

What evidence that didn’t come from just Tim Ballard making a claim?  Serious question

Edited October 8, 2023 by Calm

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Do you see a "moral panic" component to recent narratives re: child trafficking?  Not to say the problem doesn't exist, but that aspects of it are being distorted, sensationalized, crafted, etc.?

Facebook has me guessing there is some truth to this.  So much alarmist posting, stories proven false perpetually posted regarding victimization of all sorts of things.  It’s nauseating really- if I see another post stating “warning!  Parking lot scheme covering the country-Don’t pick up that dollar bill off your windshield, it’s a TRAP!”

I think the world is worse than we know and better than we believe, depending on where we look.  Sorry I know that’s a fence sitters answer.  But without hard data all I know is how little I know. 

[phaedrus ut]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

What evidence that didn’t come from just Tim Ballard making a claim?  Serious question

Other people involved have said in interviews that M. Russell was involved financially. There is also other evidence connecting the two like the for profit companies sharing a address with M. Russell Ballard's family members. Two additional apostles seem to be investors in Tim's businesses as well.  

Lynn Packer, former KSL reporter, has been covering this for a long time and in his most recent video covers a lot of evidence.  He also outlines a meeting with the producers of The Sound of Freedom having a secret meeting with the full quorum of the 12 apostles on January 12, 2017.  

Phaedrus

[smac97]

2 hours ago, phaedrus ut said:

Despite the denials the evidence also seems to be pointing to M. Russell Ballard and Tim Ballard having quite a few financial relationships. Which is ironic because Ballard began his career as an apostle with a few financial scandals. I don't see a easy way for the church to bail M. Russell Ballard out of this situation like they did with the Bountiful Regional Center. 

Phaedrus 

Could you elaborate?  What evidence do you have in mind?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, phaedrus ut said:

Other people involved have said in interviews that M. Russell was involved financially. T

Were they told this by Tim Ballard or is there independent evidence?  Everything that I have looked at finance wise like this tracks back to Tim Ballard.

Quote

There is also other evidence connecting the two like the for profit companies sharing a address with M. Russell Ballard's family members. 

If Tim Ballard was a family friend, as it appears he was, what is surprising or shocking or even wrong that some family members might have invested with him (it greatly depends on why they did)?

His family should have the freedom to make financial decisions without it being claimed as proof that Elder Ballard was involved.  I have made most of my financial decisions in adulthood without consulting my parents, same with my husband even when it was using a mortgage broker both of us knew without my dad recommending him.

Quote

Two additional apostles seem to be investors in Tim's businesses as well.  

Specifics please.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Calm

[phaedrus ut]

29 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Could you elaborate?  What evidence do you have in mind?

Lynn Packer lays it out in detail in the link I posted. Lynn did the work and I'll let his efforts speak for themself. 

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Were they told this but Tim Ballard or is there independent evidence.  Everything that I have looked at finance wise like this tracks back to Tim Ballard.

If Tim Ballard was a family friend, as it appears he was, what is surprising or shocking or even wrong that some family members might have invested with him (it greatly depends on why they did)?

His family should have the freedom to make financial decisions without it being claimed as proof that Elder Ballard was involved.  I have made most of my financial decisions in adulthood without consulting my parents, same with my husband even when it was using a mortgage broker both of us knew without my dad recommending him.

Specifics pleas.

The specifics are outlined well in the video I posted. Here is a brief summary included in the link. 

this YouTube video report documents, Tim Ballard and Russell Ballard were, in fact, deeply involved in more than one business enterprise and both are lying when they deny it. It shows the entire Quorum of Twelve Apostles, during a secret meeting, learned first-hand about one of the Ballards’ financial ties: A shared interest in a motion picture in the works at the time, Sound of Freedom, a movie meant to immortalize and enrich Tim Ballard while promoting Mormonism, i.e., serve as a missionary tool.

Lynn Packer was a long time investigative journalist for KSL, taught journalism at BYU, and is the nephew of Boyd K. Packer. He's also the journalist who broke the Paul H. Dunn story. 

Phaedrus 

 

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, phaedrus ut said:

Lynn Packer was a long time investigative journalist for KSL, taught journalism at BYU, and is the nephew of Boyd K. Packer. He's also the journalist who broke the Paul H. Dunn story. 

And I have looked at several of his videos on this, though not the latest.  He makes a lot of connection based on suppositions and not documentation, like assuming Pres Ballard had to be making financial deals out of his SL office because his son-in-law was involved in some way with Tim Ballard.

Packer is very good at finding stuff, not so good at analysis imo.  His bias is strong and he lets it influence him too much at times.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

The video is 30 minutes.  Time stamps please where he documents the actual involvement because I am not seeing it.  Just more speculation or claims stated as facts without documentation.

He opens with Tim Ballard lying about using Pres. Ballard’s name and appears to be trying to connect Pres Ballard with TB’s claims Pres Ballard okayed whatever it took to save kids that he used trying to get women to go along with what he wanted as if evidence of TB using is name is evidence of actual approval.  The people he presented stated it wasn’t the Church’s fault that Tim Ballard used Pres Ballard’s name.  It is no different than saying God told him to do it, no actual proof God told him even if someone says this to millions.

Pres Ballard did not deny TB was a family friend and he hung out with Pres Ballard or sought counsel from him.

Making a donation to OUR, which is a charity is not being financially involved in the sense of investment. Equating the two is very problematic. 
He presents Elder Ballard’s interest in the Covenant book and encouragement of TB to do more as a “business connection”.  
 

Unless Elder Ballard personally made money off of it, I don’t see it that way.

He provides documentation for tons of stuff, but shows none for the first investments in he claims were made in the nonprofit.  He doesn’t even say where he got the idea unlike many of his other claims.  Why doesn’t he do it for this most relevant claim to demonstrate an actual business connection.

”It appears Brad Bower respesented [Elder Ballard’s] financial interests’, so Elder Ballard could keep in the shadows is not evidence.  It is speculation.

If the rest of the video is more the same, Packer is being sloppy in his analysis just as he has been in previous videos.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Calm

[phaedrus ut]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

The video is 30 minutes.  Time stamps please where he documents the actual involvement. Or even when he talks about it so I can see if this is more speculation as he has done in the past or at least based on stronger probabilities.

So you want me to rewatch the video, provide time stamps with descriptions, and post it for you? 

 

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, phaedrus ut said:

So you want me to rewatch the video, provide time stamps with descriptions, and post it for you? 

 

I am not seeing what you claim was there.  No documentation.  You need to post time stamps showing actual evidence if you want me to believe Packer does more than speculate and leave out important details, like the address of Slave Stealers was only shared with Brad Bowers’ company for a couple of months during which time there is no documentation actual business was conducted by anyone beside registration of the company and yet Packer claims Brad Bower was conducting most of Slave Stealers’ business.  For all we know, Tim Ballard asked Brad Bower to receive and then forward any mail TB received (it was registered under Tim Ballard’s name, not the son in law’s….Smac posted the document quite a few pages ago) received at that address.

Jimmy Rex states that it is according to Tim Ballard that Pres Ballard is a silent partner.  Guess what, Tim Ballard lies. That has been shown, including by Packer.  As far as I can tell from the quotes provided, no one besides Tim Ballard is claiming firsthand knowledge Elder Ballard is a silent partner.  No one is saying they confirmed it with Elder Ballard or anyone else.

So far a waste of my time, I have seen everything before in his other videos.  I don’t see any reason to devote more effort since that was 2/3 of the video.  Feel free to show there is actual evidence or not, up to you.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Calm

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I am not seeing what you claim was there.  No documentation.  You need to post time stamps showing actual evidence if you want me to believe Packer does more than speculate and leave out important details, like the address of Slave Stealers was only shared with Brad Bowers’ company for a couple of months during which time there is no documentation actual business was conducted by anyone beside registration of the company and yet Packer claims Brad Bower was conducting most of Slave Stealers’ business.  For all we know, Tim Ballard asked Brad Bower to receive and then forward any mail TB received (it was registered under Tim Ballard’s name, not the son in law’s….Smac posted the document quite a few pages ago) received at that address.

Jimmy Rex states that it is according to Tim Ballard that Pres Ballard is a silent partner.  Guess what, Tim Ballard lies. That has been shown, including by Packer.  As far as I can tell from the quotes provided, no one besides Tim Ballard is claiming firsthand knowledge Elder Ballard is a silent partner.  No one is saying they confirmed it with Elder Ballard or anyone else.

So far a waste of my time, I have seen everything before in his other videos.  I don’t see any reason to devote more effort since that was 2/3 of the video.  Feel free to show there is actual evidence or not, up to you.

Start at 9:00 minutes in, then at 12:30 it mentions the two other apostles who invested 600,000.00 in Tim's movie making ventures. The two apostles are Robert C. Gay and Dale G. Renland. Then another time stamp is 16:00, and important.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXbcrDd4J-Q&t=82s

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Tacenda

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Start at 9:00 minutes in.

And what I am going to see?  I got to 25 minutes.  I saw no concrete evidence that Elder Ballard invested money in Tim Ballard’s companies, nothing but hearsay that started with Tim Ballard’s claims that Elder Ballard was involved on the business side.

We already knew they were friends and that Elder Ballard was supportive of his efforts to stop child trafficking.  Hardly surprising if Elder Ballard was one of those who donated to the cause or even personally supported it by giving Tim Ballard blessings before missions or worried about while he was on those missions.

Where is the evidence that Elder Ballard was looking to personally benefit financially from this relationship and therefore had a business relationship or was helping anyone else to personally benefit financially from the relationship rather than focusing on the humanitarian side?

I don’t believe Tim Ballard when he told the women that Elder Ballard approved of them breaking the Law of Chastity whatever the details are, why should I believe him that Elder Ballard was a silent partner?

Edited October 9, 2023 by Calm

[Tacenda]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

And what I am going to see?  I got to 25 minutes.  I saw no concrete evidence that Elder Ballard invested money in Tim Ballard’s companies.

We already knew they were friends and that Elder Ballard was supportive of his efforts to stop child trafficking.  Hardly surprising if Elder Ballard was one of those who donated to the cause or even personally supported it by giving Tim Ballard blessings before missions or worried about while he was on those missions.

Where is the evidence that Elder Ballard was looking to personally benefit financially from this relationship and therefore had a business relationship or was helping anyone else to personally benefit financially from the relationship rather than focusing on the humanitarian side?

I edited because I thought you may want me to be more specific, if you'd like to see my initial post. But not saying anything is wrong with what they did. Or maybe there is, not sure. And each time Lynn wanted feed back with his findings they wouldn't give answers. So it's really hearsay I guess.  ETA: I guess 26:00 min. in Packer said is the most damning, but don't really know a lot about this kind of stuff.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Tacenda

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

And each time Lynn wanted feed back with his findings they wouldn't give answers.

Would you if you knew the guy was prone to put the worst reading possible and to come up with accusations as of fact when he lacked evidence?

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

guess 26:00 min. in Packer said is the most damning

Right after I stopped, lol?  What was it about?  Something more than supporting the humanitarian efforts of OUR?

Edited October 9, 2023 by Calm

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Right after I stopped, lol?  What was it about?  Something more than supporting the humanitarian efforts of OUR?

Yes, it looks like it, but you know me, not all there, lol.  

Edited October 9, 2023 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

Would you if you knew the guy was prone to put the worst reading possible and to come up with accusations as of fact when he lacked evidence?

Probably not, good point.

[Calm]

10 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Yes, it looks like it, but you know me, not all there, lol.  

Tacenda, from what I can see you trust too much and then you get fearful because you don’t trust yourself and your own beliefs and understandings.  And that has caused you to be indecisive at times, but you have a good heart and the reason you are indecisive at times is you want good things for people and for people not to be hurt by others.  I would rather have a friend like you than someone who was able to see the truth without effort and make instant decisions and never need to change their mind, but did little to help others with their perfect understanding.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Yes, it looks like it, but you know me, not all there, lol.  

Well, unless phaedrusut comes up with something more specific, I am waiting till tomorrow to finish it.  I can’t stop looking at the horror of what is happening in the Middleeast, but I can put this aside for the night.

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Well, unless phaedrusut comes up with something more specific, I am waiting till tomorrow to finish it.  I can’t stop looking at the horror of what is happening in the Middleeast, but I can put this aside for the night.

On my kindle, hard to type but I am also worried about the middle east and my in-laws have a 15,000 trip in April going to Israel, so they're hoping it ends quick and worried for loss of life of course. And thanks so much for your nice comment before this one. Yes, let phaedrus or Will Farrell specify what time stamps are evidence.

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Well, unless phaedrusut comes up with something more specific, I am waiting till tomorrow to finish it.  I can’t stop looking at the horror of what is happening in the Middleeast, but I can put this aside for the night.

This seems trivial in comparison. Tim Ballard may be a dishonest grifter creeper who duped many. It's very sad. 

[smac97]

15 hours ago, phaedrus ut said:

Quote

Quote

Despite the denials the evidence also seems to be pointing to M. Russell Ballard and Tim Ballard having quite a few financial relationships. Which is ironic because Ballard began his career as an apostle with a few financial scandals. I don't see a easy way for the church to bail M. Russell Ballard out of this situation like they did with the Bountiful Regional Center. 

Could you elaborate?  What evidence do you have in mind?

Lynn Packer lays it out in detail in the link I posted.

I watched the video and commented on it at some length here.  Unlike you, I found "detail" quite lacking in the video.  Mr. Packer is long on assertion, innuendo, and vagueness, but short on actual competent evidence of a business/financial relationship between the two Ballards.

15 hours ago, phaedrus ut said:

Lynn did the work and I'll let his efforts speak for themself. 

Actually, I don't think "Lynn did the work." 

He asserts that both Tim Ballard and Pres. Ballard "are lying" about business ventures, but offers no actual evidence of such. 

He quotes a Vice article, which speculates about Pres. Ballard, but offers no actual evidence. 

He quotes Jimmy Rex, who passes on multiple hearsay (none of which actually indicts Pres. Ballard). 

He quotes an anonymous "source," who appears to offer multiple hearsay. 

He references allegations he (Packer) had made back in 2020 that Pres. Ballard made a donation to or "investment" in OUR "or one of its affiliated entities," and then impliedly claims vindication because this allegation is, as he put it, "uncontested" (because the Church declined his request to interview Pres. Ballard about it.

Claiming another anonymous source, Packer claims that Pres. Ballard read Tim Ballard's book, "The Covenant," and later met with Tim about it, and that in doing so it (the book) "became Tim and Russell Ballards' first business connection."  He provides no evidence for this.

And on and on and on.  I laid out my assessment of Packer's claims, and I found them quite lacking in evidentiary support.  As you disagree, which pieces of evidence, did Packer present which you find probative and significant?

15 hours ago, phaedrus ut said:

The specifics are outlined well in the video I posted.

I respectfully disagree.  I think Packer did a very poor job.  Lots of hearsay, speculation, innuendo, presumed guilt, anonymous sources, and unsupported assertions.  

15 hours ago, phaedrus ut said:

Here is a brief summary included in the link. 

this YouTube video report documents, Tim Ballard and Russell Ballard were, in fact, deeply involved in more than one business enterprise and both are lying when they deny it. It shows the entire Quorum of Twelve Apostles, during a secret meeting, learned first-hand about one of the Ballards’ financial ties: A shared interest in a motion picture in the works at the time, Sound of Freedom, a movie meant to immortalize and enrich Tim Ballard while promoting Mormonism, i.e., serve as a missionary tool.

Lynn Packer was a long time investigative journalist for KSL, taught journalism at BYU,

Then he ought to know better.

15 hours ago, phaedrus ut said:

and is the nephew of Boyd K. Packer.

This is not a credential.  That he has a well-known uncle does not lend probative weight to his unsubstantiated accusations and assertions.

15 hours ago, phaedrus ut said:

He's also the journalist who broke the Paul H. Dunn story.

Packer having earned laurels thirty-plus years ago regarding Paul H. Dunn does not lend probative weight to his current unsubstantiated accusations and assertions regarding Pres. Ballard.  If anything, the contrast between the two stories shows just how deficient the latter is.  His Sunstone article about Dunn was quite good in terms of marshaling and laying out actual evidence.  Moreover, the substantive assessment in Packer's article was corroborated by additional items, published in the same issue, which included excerpts of a January 1991 interview of Dunn by the Arizona Republic, a brief note by Richard Eyre, and so on.

In contrast, Packer's YouTube video offers scant evidence against Pres. Ballard.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited October 9, 2023 by smac97

[Calm]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

watched the video and commented on it at some length here. 

The link just stayed on this page for me, this is the post:

His videos are blurring together, there is so much repetition in them…I get why he does it for new readers, but when he starts treating his previous claims as established fact and not his speculation, perhaps because he’s repeated it so often he’s forgotten it’s speculation, I think he needs to rethink his strategy. I hadn’t watched this one before, your previous summary provided enough detail it looked like a waste of time.

>>>>My additions to your highlights and my own less detailed summary above…even if one accepts his sources are repeating what happened when they were present, they are not saying what Packer claims they are saying.

I love how he throws in the fact that some visitors to Hutchinson’s home had expensive, flashy cars as if this is relevant to anything.

The first part up to Brunson are repeats for the most part, the only maybe new thing is the pronouncement without any info or sources on the three leaders allegedly investing.

The last two interviews say the opposite that Packer is claiming.  Katherine Ballard says Elder Ballard was very careful as was Tim Ballard in those meetings (probably why Elder Ballard originally assumed he was careful with other people I am guessing) and the only advice given she mentioned was for the “nonprofit”, which would be the humanitarian side of Tim Ballard’s work.  The last interviewee said Tim said all sorts of things about Elder Ballard’s involvement, but at the end she said she wasn’t sure if she believed him…meaning it had to be just his word even though she had been in meetings with church leaders (which more than likely means those meetings had to be focused on the humanitarian side).

The only almost evidence Packer has is Brunson’s video, which is about 26 minutes into it, but it is Packer who provides the details and context at about 23 minutes, not Brunson, so there is no way to determine if Brunson is referring to the same things as Packer when Brunson said he was in a meeting with Elder Ballard and Tim Ballard.  Given the sloppiness of Packer’s reporting for the two videos that follow that contradict his claims as well as his implying that Dave Lopez and others repeating/believing Tim Ballard’s claims somehow ensures Tim Ballard is not lying, I see quite a bit of reason to assume he is misinterpreting or misrepresenting this video as well.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Calm