Tim Ballard

[Teancum]

On 11/1/2023 at 7:21 PM, smac97 said:

Thom Harrison apparently apologized in 2014:

Quote

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Seems like this sort of thing should count for something.  Do you concur?

I believe if you check you will find that Harrison has continued to speak at various "fringe" conferences after 2014.

 

On 11/1/2023 at 7:21 PM, smac97 said:

As for Avraham Gileadi, perhaps his writings do merit some attention from his local leaders.  I haven't read his stuff.

Based on what I am seeing, yes the church may want to check into things re Brother Gileadi.

On 11/1/2023 at 7:21 PM, smac97 said:

Regarding Christopher Parret, I think his conduct relative to AVOW may well need to be addressed (I don't know much about it), but that's a matter for his local leaders.

AVOW looks like a real fringe group.  Question, why should this all be left to local leaders. If these people are pedalling things that are contrary to doctrine shouldn't the top leadership speaks out?  They did regarding Tim Ballard.

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, Teancum said:

AVOW looks like a real fringe group.  Question, why should this all be left to local leaders. If these people are pedalling things that are contrary to doctrine shouldn't the top leadership speaks out?  They did regarding Tim Ballard.

Interesting question.  I can't see why it would necessarily be up to local leaders either, other than local leaders would be in the best position to sound the alarm maybe?  A local leader might also have started the process with Ballard but since he seems to have been very well and personally known with some of the GAs (unlike what might be the case with the AVOW group who could just be names on a page to top leadership), that probably wasn't necessary.

[Teancum]

On 11/3/2023 at 5:23 AM, smac97 said:

So your public accusation of "Mormonism" incubating murderers is limited to this board, and this suppose to ameliorate the accusation.

Not worth the round and round anymore SMAC.  You have not changed my mind and I have not changed yours. Happy Saturday!  😁

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, CA Steve said:

To paraphrase a quote attributed to Twain, it's easier to create heroes than it is to dethrone them. Just look at those trying to still defend TB here on this board, despite the overwhelming evidence. Makes you wonder which of our historical heroes were not who we thought they were.

 

He is a part of the ‘Cult of the Badass’ myth our society loves so much.

[smac97]

6 hours ago, Teancum said:

I believe if you check you will find that Harrison has continued to speak at various "fringe" conferences after 2014.

Ah.  Thank you for this information.

6 hours ago, Teancum said:

Based on what I am seeing, yes the church may want to check into things re Brother Gileadi.

AVOW looks like a real fringe group.  Question, why should this all be left to local leaders. If these people are pedalling things that are contrary to doctrine shouldn't the top leadership speaks out?  They did regarding Tim Ballard.

"Jurisdiction" to adjudicate such matters is at the local level, not with the GAs.  However, I think there are times when local leaders are unaware of misconduct, or else are aware but reluctant to do their job.  We have clear mandates about "boundary maintenance," but such things can create conflict, tension, etc. at the local level.  

But working with, and even disciplining, wayward members is part of a bishop's and stake president's responsibilities.

Edited November 5, 2023 by smac97

[Tacenda]

I wonder if all this has gotten to be too much for him. https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/health-update-president-ballard?cid=email-CCD_EM_NEWS_110423_News2c&mkt_tok=NzUyLUlOUS02NzQAAAGPPDCIIs-UOFbo0X2tkbcDhfd_8_fBi1enWO3t4bWvyA4XbZZa0f6hjztsJQq7z7aRSjrtPmC6EaeqcgRzFmQx_VwdmtKFqx69QGVE37-K

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I wonder if all this has gotten to be too much for him. https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/health-update-president-ballard?cid=email-CCD_EM_NEWS_110423_News2c&mkt_tok=NzUyLUlOUS02NzQAAAGPPDCIIs-UOFbo0X2tkbcDhfd_8_fBi1enWO3t4bWvyA4XbZZa0f6hjztsJQq7z7aRSjrtPmC6EaeqcgRzFmQx_VwdmtKFqx69QGVE37-K

It can’t have helped, certainly.

[Teancum]

18 hours ago, smac97 said:

Ah.  Thank you for this information.

"Jurisdiction" to adjudicate such matters is at the local level, not with the GAs.  However, I think there are times when local leaders are unaware of misconduct, or else are aware but reluctant to do their job.  We have clear mandates about "boundary maintenance," but such things can create conflict, tension, etc. at the local level.  

But working with, and even disciplining, wayward members is part of a bishop's and stake president's responsibilities.

I am well aware of the procedures on such things. On the other hand if a substantial numbers of your flock are attending conferences that feature fringe types and mainline speakers the top leaders might want to be a bit more specific.  Like they were regarding Tim Ballard.  

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Quote

Ah.  Thank you for this information.

"Jurisdiction" to adjudicate such matters is at the local level, not with the GAs.  However, I think there are times when local leaders are unaware of misconduct, or else are aware but reluctant to do their job.  We have clear mandates about "boundary maintenance," but such things can create conflict, tension, etc. at the local level.  

But working with, and even disciplining, wayward members is part of a bishop's and stake president's responsibilities.

I am well aware of the procedures on such things. On the other hand if a substantial numbers of your flock are attending conferences that feature fringe types and mainline speakers the top leaders might want to be a bit more specific.  Like they were regarding Tim Ballard.  

You mean calling out specific groups/individuals and telling Latter-day Saints to avoid them?  In other words, you want the Church to build and maintain, for lack of a better word, a "blacklist?"

I could see that becoming a problem very quickly.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited November 5, 2023 by smac97

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

You mean calling out specific groups/individuals and telling Latter-day Saints to avoid them?  In other words, you want the Church to build and maintain, for lack of a better word, a "blacklist?"

I could see that becoming a problem very quickly.

Thanks,

-Smac

Yes and yes but yea I see how it could become a problem.  So do you think the general council leaders have given on extremism and then leaving it with local leaders is enough?

Edited November 5, 2023 by Teancum

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, smac97 said:

You mean calling out specific groups/individuals and telling Latter-day Saints to avoid them?  In other words, you want the Church to build and maintain, for lack of a better word, a "blacklist?"

I could see that becoming a problem very quickly.

Thanks,

-Smac

Even having a “do not contact” list is verboten though they often exist anyways.

[helix]

Two updates to the "Did Elder Ballard give OUR tithing info" issue.

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2023/11/06/senior-latter-day-saint-apostle/

The source of the kerfuffle, Troy Rawlings, finally updated his story. He now said: “when Davis County closed its investigation [of OUR], there was insufficient evidence to substantiate the allegation of Elder Ballard’s role with respect to LDS tithing records.”

The best way to harmonize this with his meeting with OUR lawyers in December 2022 meeting is that Troy alleged it then, but Troy knew then he didn't have the evidence to back it up. And so he never supplied evidence. He has yet to state what that evidence was.

The church also chimed in. "A senior apostle with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 'has never released tithing records to Operation Underground Railroad or any other organization,' a church spokesperson said Monday. . . .the church emphasized that it 'regards tithing records as sacred and keeps them confidential.' . . .'The amount of tithing and other offerings paid by a donor is confidential,' the guidebook for all church leaders states. 'Only the bishop and those who are authorized to handle or view these contributions should have access to this information.' Church leaders, it adds, are to 'ensure that such data is not used for personal, political, or commercial purposes.'

Edited November 7, 2023 by helix

[Calm]

Also:

https://www.deseret.com/2023/11/6/23949952/church-tim-ballard-operation-underground-railroad-tithing-statement

[Tacenda]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

Also:

https://www.deseret.com/2023/11/6/23949952/church-tim-ballard-operation-underground-railroad-tithing-statement

I hope Troy Rawlings just admits it if true.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

I hope Troy Rawlings just admits it if true.

Admits what, that he didn’t have solid evidence?

He has already stated that.

Or that he didn’t have evidence at all?

I would not be the least bit surprised if he heard about a donor list of Church members and jumped to the conclusion it was tithing records.  Or someone else did and related it to him.

I would like to see his documentation of any conversation that might have suggested that to him for whatever reason.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Calm

[helix]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I hope Troy Rawlings just admits it if true.

Nah, it's like when my wife asks me if I cleaned the bathroom. Instead of saying no, I just avoid the question for a few days. Then I eventually say there is insufficient evidence to support the allegations that I cleaned the bathroom, then slink off without providing more info.

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, helix said:

Then I eventually say there is insufficient evidence to support the allegations that I cleaned the bathroom, then slink off without providing more info.

I got the same vibe from him, lol…

Though perhaps you meant did not clean the bathroom…

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, helix said:

Nah, it's like when my wife asks me if I cleaned the bathroom. Instead of saying no, I just avoid the question for a few days. Then I eventually say there is insufficient evidence to support the allegations that I cleaned the bathroom, then slink off without providing more info.

Haha, maybe. Really dumb move on both your parts.  😁

Edited November 7, 2023 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

Admits what, that he didn’t have solid evidence?

He has already stated that.

Or that he didn’t have evidence at all?

I would not be the least bit surprised if he heard about a donor list of Church members and jumped to the conclusion it was tithing records.  Or someone else did and related it to him.

I would like to see his documentation of any conversation that might have suggested that to him for whatever reason.

Yeah, and it has been on two news stations this evening that have aired it, not a good look on the church or him, somethings got to give.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Tacenda

[helix]

59 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Yeah, and it has been on two news stations this evening that have aired it, not a good look on the church or him, somethings got to give.

Church: *Literally does nothing*
Rawlings: "So OUR attorneys, I have an allegation about Elder Ballard giving out tithing records to you guys, either about rich members or rich wards"
OUR attorneys: "That's ridiculous, we never got any records"
Accusers: "Whoa, did you hear that? Ballard and the church gave out tithing records both about rich members and rich wards!"
Church: "No, our policy is that it's confidential"
Internet: "Look at this allegation! Can you believe the church would do such a thing with tithing records?"
SL Tribune to Rawlings: "So, you going to comment? You know, since you were the source of all this."
Rawlings: "Nah"
SL Tribune to Rawlings: "You sure you don't want to comment?"
Rawlings: "Fine. The reason I didn't do anything with that allegation is that it was unsubstantiated and I didn't have evidence to back it up."
Church: "We're going to repeat ourselves. Our policy is that tithing records are confidential. To be crystal clear, Elder Ballard did not share tithing records."

...

Tacenda: "This isn't a good look for the church here"

Edit: Hmm...on re-read, I think Tacenda is saying "The church being accused isn't a good look for the church." And not "The church's actions here is not a good look for the church"

Edited November 7, 2023 by helix

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, helix said:

Church: *Literally does nothing*
Rawlings: "So OUR attorneys, I have an allegation about Elder Ballard giving out tithing records to you guys, either about rich members or rich wards"
OUR attorneys: "That's ridiculous, we never got any records"
Accusers: "Whoa, did you hear that? Ballard and the church gave out tithing records both about rich members and rich wards!"
Church: "No, our policy is that it's confidential"
Internet: "Look at this allegation! Can you believe the church would do such a thing with tithing records?"
SL Tribune to Rawlings: "So, you going to comment? You know, since you were the source of all this."
Rawlings: "Nah"
SL Tribune to Rawlings: "You sure you don't want to comment?"
Rawlings: "Fine. The reason I didn't do anything with that allegation is that it was unsubstantiated and I didn't have evidence to back it up."
Church: "We're going to repeat ourselves. Our policy is that tithing records are confidential. To be crystal clear, Elder Ballard did not share tithing records."

...

Tacenda: "This isn't a good look for the church here"

Edit: Hmm...on re-read, I think Tacenda is saying "The church being accused isn't a good look for the church." And not "The church's actions here is not a good look for the church"

The problem is that there are many among those who’ve lost their testimonies of the restored gospel who have a deep psychological need to produce a litany of supposed confirmatory “evidences” that the church isn’t true, and they do this in a futile quest to calm their troubled minds and feel justification for their apostasy. When one’s peace of mind is dependent on believing the worst about the church and its leaders, any and all unconfirmed rumors of wrong doing are welcomed as “angelic messengers” that minister welcome “relief’ to the unsettled consciences of those who have left the church but just can’t seem to leave it alone.

Paradoxically, for such souls, they remain psychologically wedded to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints in spite of the fact that they claim they don’t want to be, hence the obsession to participate daily on this discussion board. For most of these, it will be an amazing day of realization when they finally come to recognize that the reason why they couldn’t leave the church alone is because their spirit always knew it was true.

52 And Korihor put forth his hand and wrote, saying: I know that I am dumb, for I cannot speak; and I know that nothing save it were the power of God could bring this upon me; yea, and I always knew that there was a God. (Alma 30)

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by teddyaware

[ttribe]

8 hours ago, teddyaware said:

The problem is that there are many among those who’ve lost their testimonies of the restored gospel who have a deep psychological need to produce a litany of supposed confirmatory “evidences” that the church isn’t true, and they do this in a futile quest to calm their troubled minds and feel justification for their apostasy. When one’s peace of mind is dependent on believing the worst about the church and its leaders, any and all unconfirmed rumors of wrong doing are welcomed as “angelic messengers” that minister welcome “relief’ to the unsettled consciences of those who have left the church but just can’t seem to leave it alone.

Paradoxically, for such souls, they remain psychologically wedded to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints in spite of the fact that they claim they don’t want to be, hence the obsession to participate daily on this discussion board. For most of these, it will be an amazing day of realization when they finally come to recognize that the reason why they couldn’t leave the church alone is because their spirit always knew it was true.

52 And Korihor put forth his hand and wrote, saying: I know that I am dumb, for I cannot speak; and I know that nothing save it were the power of God could bring this upon me; yea, and I always knew that there was a God. (Alma 30)

 

This psychological analysis of exmos, as if they were homogeneous, is laughably wrong and reveals WAY more about its author than any exmos. 

[Tacenda]

9 hours ago, helix said:

Church: *Literally does nothing*
Rawlings: "So OUR attorneys, I have an allegation about Elder Ballard giving out tithing records to you guys, either about rich members or rich wards"
OUR attorneys: "That's ridiculous, we never got any records"
Accusers: "Whoa, did you hear that? Ballard and the church gave out tithing records both about rich members and rich wards!"
Church: "No, our policy is that it's confidential"
Internet: "Look at this allegation! Can you believe the church would do such a thing with tithing records?"
SL Tribune to Rawlings: "So, you going to comment? You know, since you were the source of all this."
Rawlings: "Nah"
SL Tribune to Rawlings: "You sure you don't want to comment?"
Rawlings: "Fine. The reason I didn't do anything with that allegation is that it was unsubstantiated and I didn't have evidence to back it up."
Church: "We're going to repeat ourselves. Our policy is that tithing records are confidential. To be crystal clear, Elder Ballard did not share tithing records."

...

Tacenda: "This isn't a good look for the church here"

Edit: Hmm...on re-read, I think Tacenda is saying "The church being accused isn't a good look for the church." And not "The church's actions here is not a good look for the church"

Touche!

[Teancum]

8 hours ago, teddyaware said:

The problem is that there are many among those who’ve lost their testimonies of the restored gospel who have a deep psychological need to produce a litany of supposed confirmatory “evidences” that the church isn’t true, and they do this in a futile quest to calm their troubled minds and feel justification for their apostasy. When one’s peace of mind is dependent on believing the worst about the church and its leaders, any and all unconfirmed rumors of wrong doing are welcomed as “angelic messengers” that minister welcome “relief’ to the unsettled consciences of those who have left the church but just can’t seem to leave it alone.

😅😂😂😁

This is rich coming from someone steeped in confirmation bias.  Of course all humans are susceptible to such things and form members of the church will fall prey to it to one degree or another and some do get carried away with such things.  As do active believing members.

 

8 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Paradoxically, for such souls, they remain psychologically wedded to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints in spite of the fact that they claim they don’t want to be, hence the obsession to participate daily on this discussion board. For most of these, it will be an amazing day of realization when they finally come to recognize that the reason why they couldn’t leave the church alone is because their spirit always knew it was true.

Wrong.  First it is not true. Second for many ex members they gave their all and thus it is part of who and what they are for good and ill. There is no obligation for a disaffected member to "leave the church alone" or not speak out against what they view as harmful or bad.  Many disaffected members have strong ties to the church still, through family, work, friends.  And in many cases the church and those the disaffected member is tied to don't leave them alone. I often have a few close active friends who feel the need to try to save me or  help me.  But if I see they may be the ones who need the help, well that is somehow offensive.  Really the church is just another man made religion, like them all and has no special pleading to have to be left alone.

8 hours ago, teddyaware said:

52 And Korihor put forth his hand and wrote, saying: I know that I am dumb, for I cannot speak; and I know that nothing save it were the power of God could bring this upon me; yea, and I always knew that there was a God. (Alma 30)

 

Meh.

[Teancum]

15 minutes ago, ttribe said:

This psychological analysis of exmos, as if they were homogeneous, is laughably wrong and reveals WAY more about its author than any exmos. 

THIS!!!^^^^^^^^^^^^