The Mysteries of the Spirit World

[Calm]

[Calm]

And it keeps going.

This is in Chapter 3.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

A dream or a fraud

When I say a real vision, I mean one inspired by God

Not being able to read her mind, there is no way to tell, though her and her husband’s experience of turning to relevant scriptures confirmed it for both of them it seems. 

Great quote, thanks!

And according to Brigham, I think he would say that both visions are real

Edited August 20, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Navidad]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

This is the official teachings.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world?lang=eng

I find this last paragraph in the "official teachings" a bit disturbing.

Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (Doctrine and Covenants 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the Telestial kingdom.

 

Why is it disturbing to me? Perhaps I am not understanding it, but I assume when it says "rejected the gospel" I believe it means the distinctive "LDS version of the gospel" not the gospel (atonement - death, burial, resurrection) of Christ itself. That puts me in that category doesn't it? I have had the LDS gospel (exclusive authority, power, baptism, priesthood, ordinance-assisted, salvation/exaltation distinction, continuing revelation on behalf of groups, etc.) preached to me and I have rejected it. . . not the gospel as simply referring to the euangelion - the good news of Christ's atonement as generically considered across Christianity, but the specific gospel with all its nuances as found in the LDS church. So, because I have rejected the "gospel" after it was preached to me on earth, I will "suffer in a condition known as hell." I "have removed myself from the the mercy of Jesus Christ." Then "After suffering for my sins" (rejecting the LDS gospel, it seems), I "will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the Telestial kingdom" which, according to my understanding is eternity in the absence of the Father and Son. I think they won't even visit the Telestial kingdom. Is that correct?

So, as I read this on the "official" page it seems to me that the punishment for rejecting the LDS gospel on earth (the word "or" seems important) is pretty clear and pretty severe. No talk on this website of further progression or exaltation. Am I wrong in this reading of what seems to be very straight-forward teaching?  Can I accept the gospel as understood over the millennia and not have to go to hell (even for a time) and then not be restricted to eternity without Father and Son? Should the last paragraph be rewritten, clarified, or is it fine as it is? It isn't scripture after all, is it?

[Navidad]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

Here is a talk with a great collection of quotes about the Spirit world.  I wouldn’t treat these as doctrine themselves, they may support doctrine of course.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/brent-l-top/thing-men-call-death-latter-day-saint-teachings-spirit-world/

I liked this. I like all the varied quotes from many different sources. He even quotes Charles Churchill who was a bit of a rascal. I like that! Thanks for the suggestion.

[Navidad]

14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

THIS as I understand it is the LDS paradigm. What we each believe may differ; the only actual restrictions are the temple interview questions.

I like this last sentence. Good for you for including it. You clearly identify it as the LDS paradigm. Now, I can accept and receive that without the slightest hesitation. My biggest issue with the temple interview questions is the "feeling worthy" part. How in the world do any of us ever feel sufficiently worthy to worship a Holy God? I would have to answer no to that. I go to worship based on the worthiness of Christ, not that of my own. Take care.

 

s

Edited August 20, 2023 by Navidad

[Navidad]

13 hours ago, teddyaware said:

But to answer one of your questions: Section 138 reveals that there won’t be a single man or woman who ever lived who won’t eventually be baptized, either in the flesh or by proxy, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by the time of the final judgement.

Then what, in the LDS thinking is the nature and purpose of the final judgment of the individual person?

Edited August 20, 2023 by Navidad

[Navidad]

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes to all.

You might be surprised to see who is NOW a "convert" to the LDS paradigm, after learning more about how "the system" actually is theworks.

I assume you are talking about in the after-life. Sometimes I wonder how such a pragmatist can be so assuredly speculative? 😀

[webbles]

46 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Why is it disturbing to me? Perhaps I am not understanding it, but I assume when it says "rejected the gospel" I believe it means the distinctive "LDS version of the gospel" not the gospel (atonement - death, burial, resurrection) of Christ itself. That puts me in that category doesn't it? I have had the LDS gospel (exclusive authority, power, baptism, priesthood, ordinance-assisted, salvation/exaltation distinction, continuing revelation on behalf of groups, etc.) preached to me and I have rejected it. . . not the gospel as simply referring to the euangelion - the good news of Christ's atonement as generically considered across Christianity, but the specific gospel with all its nuances as found in the LDS church. So, because I have rejected the "gospel" after it was preached to me on earth, I will "suffer in a condition known as hell." I "have removed myself from the the mercy of Jesus Christ." Then "After suffering for my sins" (rejecting the LDS gospel, it seems), I "will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the Telestial kingdom" which, according to my understanding is eternity in the absence of the Father and Son. I think they won't even visit the Telestial kingdom. Is that correct?

We do believe that our version of the Gospel is the only correct version and that everyone has to accept it to make it into the Celestial Kingdom.  But just rejecting someones attempt to preach the Gospel isn't necessarily damming.  Otherwise, putting out TV commercials would damn everyone that watches and ignores it.  We generally say that you have to have received a witness from the Holy Ghost during the preaching and then reject that witness for you to be dammed.

[Tacenda]

56 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I find this last paragraph in the "official teachings" a bit disturbing.

Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (Doctrine and Covenants 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the Telestial kingdom.

 

Why is it disturbing to me? Perhaps I am not understanding it, but I assume when it says "rejected the gospel" I believe it means the distinctive "LDS version of the gospel" not the gospel (atonement - death, burial, resurrection) of Christ itself. That puts me in that category doesn't it? I have had the LDS gospel (exclusive authority, power, baptism, priesthood, ordinance-assisted, salvation/exaltation distinction, continuing revelation on behalf of groups, etc.) preached to me and I have rejected it. . . not the gospel as simply referring to the euangelion - the good news of Christ's atonement as generically considered across Christianity, but the specific gospel with all its nuances as found in the LDS church. So, because I have rejected the "gospel" after it was preached to me on earth, I will "suffer in a condition known as hell." I "have removed myself from the the mercy of Jesus Christ." Then "After suffering for my sins" (rejecting the LDS gospel, it seems), I "will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the Telestial kingdom" which, according to my understanding is eternity in the absence of the Father and Son. I think they won't even visit the Telestial kingdom. Is that correct?

So, as I read this on the "official" page it seems to me that the punishment for rejecting the LDS gospel on earth (the word "or" seems important) is pretty clear and pretty severe. No talk on this website of further progression or exaltation. Am I wrong in this reading of what seems to be very straight-forward teaching?  Can I accept the gospel as understood over the millennia and not have to go to hell (even for a time) and then not be restricted to eternity without Father and Son? Should the last paragraph be rewritten, clarified, or is it fine as it is? It isn't scripture after all, is it?

I think I may be worse off, according to these teachings. I'm glad I don't believe whomever (Joseph?) thought the scripture up. Because I don't believe it came from the God I believe in. I believe God would want us to have our own God given compass to discern whether it's from God or man. When I read some of the things that Joseph got revelation on in the D&C, I believe it's the same revelation that we all think we receive in our daily lives. Do we all go out and write them down for all to read and tell them it came from God? I think that could be taking His name in vain if it actually isn't directly from Him and that's a big problem. Some revelations have hurt many, so I'm almost sure that God isn't happy about that. We all need to watch what we say when we say it came from above, these can have many bad consequences in certain cases. 

polygamy/polyandry

blacks denied the priesthood

gay couples children not being allowed to be baptized until 18 and only if they denounce their gay parents' choice to marry

teachings that the world would end in members' lifetimes

patriarchal blessings that lead someone to do something they would not have and it ending badly

 

 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

I find this last paragraph in the "official teachings" a bit disturbing.

Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (Doctrine and Covenants 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the Telestial kingdom.

 

Why is it disturbing to me? Perhaps I am not understanding it, but I assume when it says "rejected the gospel" I believe it means the distinctive "LDS version of the gospel" not the gospel (atonement - death, burial, resurrection) of Christ itself. That puts me in that category doesn't it? I have had the LDS gospel (exclusive authority, power, baptism, priesthood, ordinance-assisted, salvation/exaltation distinction, continuing revelation on behalf of groups, etc.) preached to me and I have rejected it. . . not the gospel as simply referring to the euangelion - the good news of Christ's atonement as generically considered across Christianity, but the specific gospel with all its nuances as found in the LDS church. So, because I have rejected the "gospel" after it was preached to me on earth, I will "suffer in a condition known as hell." I "have removed myself from the the mercy of Jesus Christ." Then "After suffering for my sins" (rejecting the LDS gospel, it seems), I "will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the Telestial kingdom" which, according to my understanding is eternity in the absence of the Father and Son. I think they won't even visit the Telestial kingdom. Is that correct?

So, as I read this on the "official" page it seems to me that the punishment for rejecting the LDS gospel on earth (the word "or" seems important) is pretty clear and pretty severe. No talk on this website of further progression or exaltation. Am I wrong in this reading of what seems to be very straight-forward teaching?  Can I accept the gospel as understood over the millennia and not have to go to hell (even for a time) and then not be restricted to eternity without Father and Son? Should the last paragraph be rewritten, clarified, or is it fine as it is? It isn't scripture after all, is it?

It does say, "...or in the spirit prison," so there is still hope if the spirit prison is indeed where you find yourself. There are people who reject the "LDS version of the gospel" on earth but who find themselves in paradise, you may indeed find yourself there. This I believe is an instance of "save two churches only"; only the individual can tip the scales on where they go; we gravitate toward one or the other, and I also believe there are degrees of paradise and prison.

Removing 1) the assumption that "gospel" means what you accept to be "the distinctive "LDS version of the gospel," and 2) any assumption (yours or anyone else's) that you will not continue your current gospel walk and conversation in the spirit world offer ample support for entering paradise and further advancing your walk and conversation, just as on earth.

[webbles]

6 hours ago, Navidad said:

Then what, in the LDS thinking is the nature and purpose of the final judgment of the individual person?

The final judgement is based on our thoughts, words, and deeds.  Everyone in all the kingdoms is saved through Christ's atonement.  They all had to accept Him as their savior.  The few that reject Him go to "Outer Darkness".

You are probably aware of John 14:2:

Quote

In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Joseph Smith gave a discourse around that verse and said (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-18?lang=eng&id=p5#p5😞

Quote

“My text is on the resurrection of the dead, which you will find in the 14th chapter of John—‘In my Father’s house are many mansions.’ [John 14:2.] It should be—‘In my Father’s kingdom are many kingdoms,’ in order that ye may be heirs of God and joint-heirs with me. … There are mansions for those who obey a celestial law, and there are other mansions for those who come short of the law, every man in his own order.”

 

[manol]

9 hours ago, Navidad said:

So, as I read this on the "official" page it seems to me that the punishment for rejecting the LDS gospel on earth is pretty clear and pretty severe. No talk on this website of further progression or exaltation.

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."  John 3:17

My understanding of this teaching is that any line of reasoning which terminates in condemnation rather than salvation (or "exaltation" in LDS terminology) has departed from the intention and mission of the Son of God.

The LDS have a scripture which quotes Christ as saying, "This is my work and my glory - to bring to pass the immortality [resurrection] and eternal life [exaltation] of man."  (Moses 1:39)

They have another scripture which says God will accomplish his purposes, which obviously includes bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man:  "The works and the designs and the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, neither can they come to naught."  (D&C 3:1)

@Navidad, I suggest you set your internal filter to exclude from your belief system any teachings from the Mormon church, or from anywhere else for that matter, which lead to "condemnation" as a conclusion.  Condemnation is NOT what Christ came into the world to bring about, and imo it is a mistake for any religion to use anything about Christ as justification for condemnation.  Now I realize this is a big ask, as "condemnation" or "damnation" teachings abound in religions and religious texts.  Substitute the concept of "learning" (and perhaps even "learning the hard way") in place of "condemnation".

We have no idea how many "Plan B's" Christ has ready to deploy so that he can accomplish his work and his glory.  All we know (or at least have reason to believe) is that he will not fail.  The LDS teachings about proxy baptism and missionary work in the Spirit World accomplish this:  They DO introduce at least one "Plan B" scenario, giving us reason to believe that the Good Shepherd's pursuit of each and every lost sheep will continue however long is necessary. 

"The worth of souls is great in the sight of God."  (D&C 18:10)

In my opinion. 

On 8/19/2023 at 6:29 PM, Calm said:

I don’t think we can even be sure Spirit Prison [...] or Paradise are locations rather than simple states of being or mind as they are here in this life.  Someone standing next to me in the grocery line may be suffering in their own moment of hell while on the other there is someone living a life of joy and spiritual peace.   (emphasis manol's)

I think you are exactly right! 

I think that "where" we are on the other side of the veil (and arguably on this side as well) is far more about our state of being or mind than about our geography.  This is a central theme of the NDE (by a woman with an LDS background) linked below, and you can engage the closed captioning so you can read rather than having to listen if that works better for you.   @Kevin Christensen and @Navidad, ya'll might find it interesting as well.  Don't be put off by the click-baity title that pops up:

https://youtu.be/O1f0heJGsUM?t=42

(In my opinion Near-Death Experiences are arguably an epicenter of uncurated latter-day revelation, widely available to seekers from all backgrounds.)

Edited August 21, 2023 by manol

[teddyaware]

19 hours ago, Navidad said:

Then what, in the LDS thinking is the nature and purpose of the final judgment of the individual person?

The purpose of the final judgement is to determine what degree of heavenly glory each saved individual will be worthy to receive. A second purpose is to identify the unsaved on the left hand of God who will be consigned to perdition.

To answer another one of your questions: The desperately wicked — such as the hardened liars, sorcerers, adulterers and whoremongers of Doctrine and Covenants 76 — will obtain the telestial kingdom of glory, but only after being humbled enough in the spirit prison to be able to exercise living faith In in the redemption of Christ.

Meanwhile, the decent and honorable men and women of the world, who reject to the message restored gospel at first but later embrace it in the spirit world, will inherit the terrestrial kingdom of glory, where they will be ministered to personally by Jesus Christ himself, in a realm of light and glory that will be as great a heaven as any Catholic or Protestant can presently conceive.

You’re mistake is that you’re conflating the hardened and rebellious wicked with the decent and honorable people who initially reject the message of the restored gospel due to being deceived. Speaking of the inheritors of the terrestrial kingdom of heavenly glory, Doctrine 76 testifies they are they who…

74 … received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness. (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

Again, the desperately wicked and rebellious, who are eventually rendered humble and contrite after suffering in the spirit prison, are not in the same category as the the good and honorable men and women of the world who rejected the restored gospel due to being deceived. In the latter category are those who were sincere in their rejection of the restored gospel, but were nonetheless sincerely wrong. To imagine that a just God would consign the good and honorable people of the world to same fate as the evil who are hardened in sin is to imagine a great injustice that could never be.

Edited August 21, 2023 by teddyaware

[Sara H]

10 hours ago, teddyaware said:

The purpose of the final judgement is to determine what degree of heavenly glory each saved individual will be worthy to receive. A second purpose is to identify the unsaved on the left hand of God who will be consigned to perdition.

To answer another one of your questions: The desperately wicked — such as the hardened liars, sorcerers, adulterers and whoremongers of Doctrine and Covenants 76 — will obtain the telestial kingdom of glory, but only after being humbled enough in the spirit prison to be able to exercise living faith In in the redemption of Christ.

Meanwhile, the decent and honorable men and women of the world, who reject to the message restored gospel at first but later embrace it in the spirit world, will inherit the terrestrial kingdom of glory, where they will be ministered to personally by Jesus Christ himself, in a realm of light and glory that will be as great a heaven as any Catholic or Protestant can presently conceive.

You’re mistake is that you’re conflating the hardened and rebellious wicked with the decent and honorable people who initially reject the message of the restored gospel due to being deceived. Speaking of the inheritors of the terrestrial kingdom of heavenly glory, Doctrine 76 testifies they are they who…

74 … received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness. (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

Again, the desperately wicked and rebellious, who are eventually rendered humble and contrite after suffering in the spirit prison, are not in the same category as the the good and honorable men and women of the world who rejected the restored gospel due to being deceived. In the latter category are those who were sincere in their rejection of the restored gospel, but were nonetheless sincerely wrong. To imagine that a just God would consign the good and honorable people of the world to same fate as the evil who are hardened in sin is to imagine a great injustice that could never be.

You just told Navidad that because of his "incomplete" Christian views, he will not be able to be with God after he dies. But enjoy the kingdom you deserve because it's atleast if not better than what you have always imagined heaven to be?

[Sara H]

On 8/19/2023 at 8:11 PM, Navidad said:

So in spirit paradise there will only be members of the LDS church? Will they be conscious of their LDSness at that time? Will the LDS church be the only Christian group to be carried over into the after-death world? Will I know I was a Mennonite in my earthly life? I guess I hear you and the others saying that Christ will judge us as to whether we were faithful LDS church members at the final judgment and how well those who lived that faith lived it, to determine between the higher kingdoms. For those of us who are not LDS in this life to live with Christ and the Father for eternity will solely depend on what we do with the LDS church and its ordinances in the after-life? That is a bunch of questions - no debate or disagreement. I just want to understand, if that is possible. 

 

[Nofear]

I read Elder Ballard's Three Degrees of Glory as a missionary. While he has some worthwhile points in the quote above, it is not Church doctrine. I have come to quite a few different conclusions than he did on a few things (e.g. he was a strongly against the idea "kingdom hopping", me not so much).

[Sara H]

36 minutes ago, Nofear said:

I read Elder Ballard's Three Degrees of Glory as a missionary. While he has some worthwhile points in the quote above, it is not Church doctrine. I have come to quite a few different conclusions than he did on a few things (e.g. he was a strongly against the idea "kingdom hopping", me not so much).

What do you mean it's not church doctrine? It reads like D&C 76.

[teddyaware]

52 minutes ago, Sara H said:

You just told Navidad that because of his "incomplete" Christian views, he will not be able to be with God after he dies. But enjoy the kingdom you deserve because it's atleast if not better than what you have always imagined heaven to be?

I guess you missed the part where I said the inheritors of the terrestrial kingdom will live in the presence of the resurrected God Jesus Christ? And since non-LDS Christians believe God the Father is without body, parts and passions, and is everywhere yet nowhere in particular at the same time, being in a heavenly realm where they’re not able to able to see that the Father has a body will suit them just fine. No? And since non-LDS Christians don’t believe in eternal marriage and families, being in a kingdom where they will remain separately and singly forever will likely suit them just fine as well. Anyway, why force a kind of heaven on people that they don’t believe in and don’t at all expect?

I wonder if you fully appreciate the fact that Moroni’s promise is sure and certain. In Moroni 10, the prophet Moroni promises the honest inquirer that if he wants to know whether or not the Book of Mormon is true, all he has to do is read the Book of Mormon with an open mind and then ask God with a sincere heart, with real intent, while exercising faith in Christ if it is indeed true? And if the aforesaid requirements to receive personal revelation are sufficiently met, God will manifest the truth of the Book of Mormon unto that man by the power of the Holy Ghost. And if Moroni’s promise really is true (I know it is) then no man or woman will have anyone else to blame but themselves if Moroni’s promise fails them

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with s sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. (Moroni 10)

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

being in a heavenly realm where they’re not able to able to see that the Father has a body will suit them just fine. No? And since non-LDS Christians don’t believe in eternal marriage and families, being in a kingdom where they will remain separately and singly forever will likely suit them just fine as well

No, why would they be satisfied with past beliefs when they hold them no longer, when they know the truth of the nature of God and what is possible with family?  It suits them fine because they believe this is what God wants them to have.  When they find out God has more he wants to give us, why wouldn’t they desire that as much as they currently desire the gifts they believe God is giving them?

Edited August 21, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

I wonder if you fully appreciate the fact that Moroni’s promise is sure and certain.

And what of those who are hampered in this life somehow from experiencing the spirit, say by medication they are required to take?  Or they were taught not to trust themselves.

I don’t see a time limit put on that promise.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Calm

[Nofear]

2 hours ago, Sara H said:

What do you mean it's not church doctrine? It reads like D&C 76.

It reads like an interpretation of some of what D&C 76 says and extrapolates a fair bit in other places. Do not confuse one's personal interpretation as being doctrine. Not mine. Not the prophets.

[webbles]

3 hours ago, Sara H said:

 

Here's an online, textual version https://prophetsseersandrevelators.wordpress.com/2021/11/04/the-three-degrees-of-glory-by-melvin-j-ballard/

Here's the paragraph in textual form instead of as an image:

Quote

This revelation clearly informs us that any man or woman, not only those in the days of Noah, who heard the Gospel and rejected it, but in this day any man or woman who has had a good chance to have heard the Gospel, to receive it and embrace it and enjoy its blessings and privileges, who lived during their life in absolute indifference to these things, ignoring it, need not to hope or anticipate that when they are dead the work can be done for them and they gain Celestial Glory. Don’t you Latter-day Saints get the notion that a man or woman can live in defiance or total indifference, having had a good chance not a casual chance or opportunity and when they die you can go and do the work for that individual and have them receive every blessing that the faithful ones are entitled to. If that becomes the doctrine of the Church we will be worse than the Catholics, who believe that you can pray a man out of purgatory. But they charge for it and we don’t, so we would be more foolish than they. [p.33]

He also goes on to say:

Quote

More than once I have had a mother come to me and ask if it would not be possible to have her daughter sealed to her dead husband. She had lived with him, she had prayed with him and plead with him, but he was totally indifferent, and now since he is dead couldn’t the work be done for him and the daughter sealed to him for time and for eternity? If he repents he will come up in the Terrestrial Glory and she does not want to be there. Then why be sealed to him?

Brothers and sisters, I say this to stimulate you to try and make your lives conform to the commandments of the Master, that you may work while the day lasts, for the night cometh when it will not profit a man to work. That applies to those who had a chance to receive the Gospel but rejected it. That was their day, and there comes a night when all the work they may do will be of no avail, as they cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom. I want to say this: It applies also to men and women who neglect going to the House of God, who think, “Oh, well, if I don’t do the work wife will fix it up.” I tell you they are treading on dangerous ground. They may wake up and find that their day and opportunity has gone. They had the chance. They died without accepting it. They neglected it and may lose it.

I am not judging their case; the Lord will judge every case on its merits. It is a general rule we ought to understand.

This was given in 1922.  One thing you might notice is that he talks about why a non-member man shouldn't be sealed to his wife after his death.  We no longer follow that policy.  We seal everyone, no matter whether they were "indifferent" or not.  The reason can be seen in the last line I quoted from him.  Let me quote it again:

Quote

I am not judging their case; the Lord will judge every case on its merits. It is a general rule we ought to understand.

The Lord judges every case.  We don't know if a person has had a "good chance" to receive the gospel.  Since this life is the best time to learn the gospel, accept it, and begin obeying God, we should strive for everyone to hear it.  But we should never tell anyone that they are going to Terrestial or Telestial because we aren't the judge.  We don't know their inner heart.

[mfbukowski]

On 8/20/2023 at 7:50 AM, Navidad said:

Why is it disturbing to me? Perhaps I am not understanding it, but I assume when it says "rejected the gospel" I believe it means the distinctive "LDS version of the gospel" not the gospel (atonement - death, burial, resurrection) of Christ itself. That puts me in that category doesn't it? I

Relax.

Pretend it is religion XYZ that says you will be frozen in a glacier for a million years if you do not join.

So what?

It's a wacko religion!  That's the attitude I had

So what's the problem?

Go or stay

Spirit bugging you?

[Bassil]

If our growth checks the boxes, we move to the next phase of our everlasting growth journey. Otherwise, we return to Earth again.