The Mysteries of the Spirit World

[Navidad]

I think it would be good if my LDS friends didn't tell me or speak for me  as a non-LDS Christian about what would suit me just fine in eternity, ok? Or describe my beliefs about the Father and the Son in generalized and somewhat condescending tone. I have not rejected "the gospel." I have embraced the gospel of Jesus Christ as I understand it. Many of you have differing interpretations of your own gospel, just as do non-LDS Christians when talking about the gospel they know. 

I can't say a whole lot about my vision of heaven and eternity, because there is more that I don't know than I do know. I know that it will be the dwelling place for Father and Son. In New Testament terms it is the place of eternal life - the gift of the Father. Is it a gift without a price? No. Please don't say that either. A terrible price was paid for that gift, and in some way I believe we pay a price in faithfulness and being Christ-like as well. 

Simplifying  or misrepresenting my beliefs is a form of mocking them. It is a form of what is today deemed in popular conflict theory as symbolic violence or perhaps a form of gaslighting. Because I believe the Father is Spirit does not mean I don't believe he has a presence. So please don't say that again. He had a presence in the Old Testament - the Shekinah glory. It was the physical visible presence of the Father. He even had on occasion a voice without a mouth. How about that? Christ was the physical visible presence on earth for thirty-three years. When I talked to Waldo P Call, I saw God. Not because Waldo P Call was LDS, or not because he was special as an LDS general authority. Nope! But because he was a Godly man. He manifested God - because he was a Godly man. I knew Anglican pastor/scholar/theologian/writer John R.W. Stott. When I talked with him, I saw God. Not because he was an Anglican. Not because he was an Anglican pastor. It was because of his Godliness. I knew Don Augsburger. When I talked to him, I saw God. Not because he was Mennonite. Certainly not because he was a Mennonite bishop. It was because of his Godliness. He was the physical visible image of God to me. 

Will I have a relationship with the Father in eternity? Yes, I believe so. Will He take on human form? Could be? The form of the burning bush? Could be? The pillar of fire or the cloud of smoke? Could be? I believe whatever it is, it will be physical and visible. So please don't say I believe otherwise. Will eternity be eternal life absent the presence of the Father and Son? Nope! Will it be amazing and wonderful? Nope! Would I look forward to that? Nope! I never met Melvin J Ballard. He lived long before me. I never have met his grandson. If I ever do will I see God? Possibly, but not because he is LDS, or an LDS leader. It will be because I see God in him because of his Godliness. Would that surprise me? Not a bit.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Navidad

[mfbukowski]

2 minutes ago, Bassil said:

If our growth checks the boxes, we move to the next phase of our everlasting growth journey. Otherwise, we return to Earth again.

The Christian view

Is one time through.

I'm a poet.

 

[Nofear]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

The Lord judges every case.  We don't know if a person has had a "good chance" to receive the gospel.  Since this life is the best time to learn the gospel, accept it, and begin obeying God, we should strive for everyone to hear it.  But we should never tell anyone that they are going to Terrestial or Telestial because we aren't the judge.  We don't know their inner heart.

Agreed. I've presented an analogy that our mortal experience is like a school where we take "courses" and learn subjects/topics/lessons. Nobody learns every topic/subject/lesson during their mortal experience and the schooling continues even after death. Everybody won't get or need the exact same curricula (either mortal or post-mortal) and some subjects/lessons will be taught in different courses (that is, get same content but a little differently). There is a required course that everyone must take eventually, The Gospel of Jesus Christ. A small minority of humanity will take that course during mortality. Most won't. While I consider myself very fortunate to have the opportunity to take that course now I cannot judge another who has a different schedule. Those others may get other courses during their mortal experience that I won't get which I'll most definitely need to take later . It is not my place to judge another because the timeline of their education looks different than my timeline.

[Bassil]

10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

The Christian view

Is one time through.

With the help of the Holy Spirit, we pass through.

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Relax.

Pretend it is religion XYZ that says you will be frozen in a glacier for a million years if you do not join.

So what?

It's a wacko religion!  That's the attitude I had

So what's the problem?

Go or stay

Spirit bugging you?

Never Mind!

Edited August 21, 2023 by Navidad
Experience trumps argument.

[manol]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The Christian view

Is one time through.

 

1 hour ago, Bassil said:

With the help of the Holy Spirit, we pass through.

 

If Bukowski's a poet, then so are you. 

[manol]

2 hours ago, Bassil said:

If our growth checks the boxes, we move to the next phase of our everlasting growth journey. Otherwise, we return to Earth again.

A concept taught in a few small groups that are off-shoots of the LDS Church is "multiple mortal probations".  Basically, it's reincarnating to finish growing until we are ready to move on to the next phase. 

Imo there are reasonable arguments on both sides, both for and against reincarnation, but I think our job here on earth is the same either way.  Like you said in another thread:

"You can believe whatever you want. All God needs from us is a good heart. If we are good people, then everything is good... Goodness is required. Trust that."

[mfbukowski]

22 minutes ago, manol said:

"You can believe whatever you want. All God needs from us is a good heart. If we are good people, then everything is good... Goodness is required. Trust that."

I do, of course.

But that leaves me wanting answers.

[Bassil]

43 minutes ago, manol said:

it's reincarnating to finish growing until we are ready to move on to the next phase. 

We won't need that with Holy Spirit with us.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, manol said:

 

 

If Bukowski's a poet, then so are you. 

Good spotting that!  And being the caboose!

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Tacenda

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Bassil said:

We won't need that with Holy Spirit with us.

Now we are getting somewhere.

Pragmatically, there is no difference between our concept of "eternal progression" and reincarnation.  Both allow for eternal progression - us becoming closer to the spirit for eternity.

There are differences, and some of them are debatable and or "discussable".

Our Doctrine is that after death progression can still be made to become closer to the spirit.  At a certain point called the "Final Judgement" we are assigned a position in one of three kingdoms; only the highest permits further progression, yet all three are equivalent to the "heaven" the person is spiritually ready to deserve at the time the final assignment is given.  Even the lowest, it has been said, is so much better than earth life, that people might be tempted to commit suicide just to get there. 

So God gives us the "heaven" we expect in a sense.

Those most spiritual keep on progressing and eventually can become like God himself.   And I believe that there are possibly higher and lower "Gods", and passages in the bible imply this, I believe.

The doctrine though is a little unclear saying that once assigigned a Kingdom of the first or second levels, one does not progress any further.

That is debatable and you often find discussions  hereabouts about such things- I personally think that progression can be eternal - with no end- for all.

We do not believe that matter is in any way inferior to spirit- that both are eternal.   A scripture tells us that spirit IS "matter" but just more "refined", and so we come up with a doctrine that might be seen to be compatible with physics which show us - as in the use of nuclear  energy- and a fire in the fireplace - that matter can indeed be transformed into energy.  I think we do not have a suitable view of "energy" yet in physics.  But of course science and religion are very different ways of seeing the world, so we can expect that.

But the criteria for accepting such things as "true" are found within each of us, as the spirit dictates.   On that I think we can agree.

Edited August 22, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

only the highest permits further progression

added:  Oops…didn’t read far enough, lol.  Apologies, Mark.

Even if progression isn’t allowed between kingdoms (and this is debatable as leaders have taught both), is there anything prevent progression within a kingdom?  There could be certain areas that are limited, but no limits in other ways.

PS to Bassil, if I don’t provide documentation of the church’s teachings, it is best to assume that part of what I am saying is speculation.  Humans love to fill in gaps of knowledge with our own ideas, but we often forget to note that they are just our own ideas.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

22 minutes ago, Calm said:

added:  Oops…didn’t read far enough, lol.  Apologies, Mark.

Even if progression isn’t allowed between kingdoms (and this is debatable as leaders have taught both), is there anything prevent progression within a kingdom?  There could be certain areas that are limited, but no limits in other ways.

PS to Bassil, if I don’t provide documentation of the church’s teachings, it is best to assume that part of what I am saying is speculation.  Humans love to fill in gaps of knowledge with our own ideas, but we often forget to note that they are just our own ideas.

I think he would say that "our own ideas" when given by the Spirit is all we need.

Let's see.   It seems he has no "sources" other than what he has received.

I can relate to that.   But I fill in with doctrine IFF it is confirmed to me. 

[mfbukowski]

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

Even if progression isn’t allowed between kingdoms (and this is debatable as leaders have taught both), is there anything prevent progression within a kingdom?  There could be certain areas that are limited, but no limits in other ways.

But the doctrine says we then are resurrected to a body that corresponds to the kingdom.

But I personally cannot imagine a Celestial K Cop pulling someone over asking "What are YOU doing HERE Mr. Terestrial Body"?      < joking.  

[Bassil]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Those most spiritual keep on progressing

LDS keeps becoming more interesting. I like it.

[Nofear]

10 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

But the doctrine says we then are resurrected to a body that corresponds to the kingdom.

We've been told neither way whether or not a resurrected body could advance in glory. If it is possible I can see some wisdom in not telling us such as we are to do the best we can now and no need to suggest an idea that might fuel procrastination. On the other hand if progression is absolutely impossible that might be some incentive to mention in (albeit not the best kind of incentive). Thus the absence of a direct revealed answer allows one both opinions.

[Navidad]

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The Christian view

Is one time through.

Ok, you are a poet! But what is your poem saying? Are you separating yourself from a Christian view? What does one time through mean? Are you a Christian poet? Does your faith show it? Is it by experience that you know it? Your faith is strong, is there any way to grow it? I see your line, can you toe it? Tow it? Oh never mind. I have to get out to the garden and hoe it.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Navidad

[mfbukowski]

12 hours ago, Bassil said:

LDS keeps becoming more interesting. I like it.

But the part you may not like is that God exists as a glorified human being - embodied- and implied in various writings, we find the idea that He (gendered) essentially was "once" as we are now, and we can become as He is now.

Of course the time reference there has to be taken figuratively- if it happened that way it would have to be in a "time before time" as we reference it.

The utility of that concept becomes that God is on a mission to make all humankind perfect.

For me personally then religion becomes also a humanistic pursuit.

The Doctrine continues that part of this process is the return of Christ to earth, where He (Son of God) will reign for one thousand years.

We are very focused on the physical, which again brings matter and spirit together again, as one.  Death is the separation of spirit, life is the unification of spirit and body. Again spirit is described as "more refined" matter, so this is not contradictory.

[mfbukowski]

6 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Ok, you are a poet! But what is your poem saying? Are you separating yourself from a Christian view? What does one time through mean? Are you a Christian poet? Does your faith show it? Is it by experience that you know it? Your faith is strong, is there any way to grow it? I see your line, can you toe it? Tow it? Oh never mind. I have to get out to the garden and hoe it.

Cute.

No, I do not believe in reincarnation, if that is your question 

[Bassil]

7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

But the part you may not like is that God exists as a glorified human being

Not at all. I already believe that Jesus is God embodied.

God want people that he call friends. That's why he's perfecting us. 

[manol]

16 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Pragmatically, there is no difference between our concept of "eternal progression" and reincarnation.  Both allow for eternal progression - us becoming closer to the spirit for eternity.

Agreed - progression (becoming the same manner of man or woman as Christ) is the task at hand at this stage, rather than figuring out all the specifics of exactly what the pathways of progression look like. 

16 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I personally think that progression can be eternal - with no end- for all.  (emphasis manol's)

Agreed. 

Imo any paradigm which entails an "us versus them" perception is an impediment to that progression. 

Imo there is no "us versus them". There is only "us". 

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The utility of that concept becomes that God is on a mission to make all humankind perfect.  (emphasis manol's)

Yes!  It's not "us versus them".  There is only "us".   Or to put it another way, imo separation is an illusion, and union is the underlying reality. 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by manol

[Leaf474]

15 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Now we are getting somewhere.

Pragmatically, there is no difference between our concept of "eternal progression" and reincarnation.

Hi! Newbie here. I've had that same thought, about eternal progression and reincarnation. I'm glad I wasn't the only one!

15 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Both allow for eternal progression - us becoming closer to the spirit for eternity.

There are differences, and some of them are debatable and or "discussable".

Our Doctrine is that after death progression can still be made to become closer to the spirit.  At a certain point called the "Final Judgement" we are assigned a position in one of three kingdoms; only the highest permits further progression, yet all three are equivalent to the "heaven" the person is spiritually ready to deserve at the time the final assignment is given.  Even the lowest, it has been said, is so much better than earth life, that people might be tempted to commit suicide just to get there. 

So God gives us the "heaven" we expect in a sense.

Those most spiritual keep on progressing and eventually can become like God himself.   And I believe that there are possibly higher and lower "Gods", and passages in the bible imply this, I believe.

The doctrine though is a little unclear saying that once assigigned a Kingdom of the first or second levels, one does not progress any further.

That is debatable and you often find discussions  hereabouts about such things- I personally think that progression can be eternal - with no end- for all.

We do not believe that matter is in any way inferior to spirit- that both are eternal.   A scripture tells us that spirit IS "matter" but just more "refined", and so we come up with a doctrine that might be seen to be compatible with physics which show us - as in the use of nuclear  energy- and a fire in the fireplace - that matter can indeed be transformed into energy.  I think we do not have a suitable view of "energy" yet in physics.  But of course science and religion are very different ways of seeing the world, so we can expect that.

But the criteria for accepting such things as "true" are found within each of us, as the spirit dictates.   On that I think we can agree.

 

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Bassil said:

Not at all. I already believe that Jesus is God embodied.

God want people that he call friends. That's why he's perfecting us. 

2+

Didn't know you believed Jesus is God embodied!

Definitely making progress!!

And so for us, Father is also embodied.  Scripture says Jesus does what he has seen his father do.

Interestingly our church used to call folks studying our approach "investigators" which I never liked.

Now the name is "friend".

I suppose that makes you a "friend" to LDSaints. 😁

Edited August 22, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Leaf474]

29 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

2+

Didn't know you believed Jesus is God embodied!

Definitely making progress!!

And so for us, Father is also embodied.  Scripture says Jesus does what he has seen his father do.

Interestingly our church used to call folks studying our approach "investigators" which I never liked.

Now the name is "friend".

I suppose that makes you a "friend" to LDSaints. 😁

Hi! It seemed really important to the missionaries I was talking to that God has a body. Why would that be important to them?

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Hi! It seemed really important to the missionaries I was talking to that God has a body. Why would that be important to them?

Because then God is like us, and we can become like him.

He as a Father and Jesus as his Son means they more approachable and can relate to us and vice versa much easier.

Their work is to help us become as they are.