The Mysteries of the Spirit World

[Navidad]

I would enjoy it some of you here could walk me through (no pun intended) what exactly, in your doctrine of the post-death experience, will happen with or to me when I "wake up" in the spirit world? Someone on a thread recently talked about the "steps" a Christian and/or an atheist must go through at that time. How clear is your understanding of what will happen to me, or for that matter to a faithful member of the church at that time? My assumption in the question is that I will die without having received any salvific LDS ordinances in this world, nor with anyone having done any proxy work for me. What specifically will I see or do? Will my parents be there? My wife, if she proceeds me in death? Will a missionary greet me? Someone from the ward? Will my favorite pastor as a boy be there? Will there be LDS missionaries? Baptismal fonts? Will I see Christ, my GA emeritus friend? Will I be offered ordinances right away? Who will offer them to me? Is Christ involved at all at this point? I really am interested in your concept of the post-death experiences. It seem like the many funerals I have attended, the sermons and verbiage are pretty much like in any other church I have attended? Any books or literature, beyond the church website that you can recommend? Thanks so much . 

[CV75]

59 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I would enjoy it some of you here could walk me through (no pun intended) what exactly, in your doctrine of the post-death experience, will happen with or to me when I "wake up" in the spirit world? Someone on a thread recently talked about the "steps" a Christian and/or an atheist must go through at that time. How clear is your understanding of what will happen to me, or for that matter to a faithful member of the church at that time? My assumption in the question is that I will die without having received any salvific LDS ordinances in this world, nor with anyone having done any proxy work for me. What specifically will I see or do? Will my parents be there? My wife, if she proceeds me in death? Will a missionary greet me? Someone from the ward? Will my favorite pastor as a boy be there? Will there be LDS missionaries? Baptismal fonts? Will I see Christ, my GA emeritus friend? Will I be offered ordinances right away? Who will offer them to me? Is Christ involved at all at this point? I really am interested in your concept of the post-death experiences. It seem like the many funerals I have attended, the sermons and verbiage are pretty much like in any other church I have attended? Any books or literature, beyond the church website that you can recommend? Thanks so much . 

I think it is safe to assume that you will process your environment in much the same way as you do here. You will see what you are willing to see (so a lot may depend on what you believe and hold on to), but all that the Lord wishes to give you will be accessible and offered at some point, when you are ready. You mentioned a few things that are important to you, mostly relationships. So, keep your eyes open!

[webbles]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

My assumption in the question is that I will die without having received any salvific LDS ordinances in this world, nor with anyone having done any proxy work for me.

This sounds like you think someone can do proxy work for you before you are dead.  Proxy work can't be done till after you are dead.

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Baptismal fonts? ... Will I be offered ordinances right away? Who will offer them to me?

Those who haven't received an ordinance before they died must wait till someone living does their proxy work.  Many believe that the dead are aware when the ordinances is being performed.  You might hear stories of people doing temple work feeling like the person they are helping is next to them or aware of what is happening.

[Sara H]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

I would enjoy it some of you here could walk me through (no pun intended) what exactly, in your doctrine of the post-death experience, will happen with or to me when I "wake up" in the spirit world? Someone on a thread recently talked about the "steps" a Christian and/or an atheist must go through at that time. How clear is your understanding of what will happen to me, or for that matter to a faithful member of the church at that time? My assumption in the question is that I will die without having received any salvific LDS ordinances in this world, nor with anyone having done any proxy work for me. What specifically will I see or do? Will my parents be there? My wife, if she proceeds me in death? Will a missionary greet me? Someone from the ward? Will my favorite pastor as a boy be there? Will there be LDS missionaries? Baptismal fonts? Will I see Christ, my GA emeritus friend? Will I be offered ordinances right away? Who will offer them to me? Is Christ involved at all at this point? I really am interested in your concept of the post-death experiences. It seem like the many funerals I have attended, the sermons and verbiage are pretty much like in any other church I have attended? Any books or literature, beyond the church website that you can recommend? Thanks so much . 

According to our doctrine, after death, a person will go to either of two locations in order to wait for the Resurrection to occur. Simply expressed, those spirits who have received the everlasting gospel, been baptized by a man with sufficient priesthood authority, and observed the commandments while they were living on earth are the only ones who are eligible to enter Spirit Paradise when they pass on. A great number of Spirits in Paradise will be selected to serve as missionaries within the Spirit prison, where they will teach other Spirits in the same manner as missionaries do on earth. We believe that many of the men who were influential here on earth, such as prophets, apostles, Seventy, and many other worthy men will go to Spirit Prison, including Hell, which is in Prison, and teach Spirits that never accepted the everlasting gospel while they were on earth. The church is still an organization in the spirit world. Those members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who broke the covenants they made with God will likewise go to prison. 

 You are a loyal Christian, but according to our belief, you are destined for Spirit Prison for a time. You will still have agency, and you will have the chance to accept  the everlasting gospel. However, because you will still have agency, you will also have the option to choose not to accept the gospel, in which case you will most likely be cast into the telestial kingdom after the day of judgment. If you do not accept the gospel while you are in prison, there is a chance that you will spend a length of time in Hell that is proportionate to the amount of punishment you deserve for your sins. 

Your parents will be prison if they have not yet accepted the gospel in prison. If they have accepted the gospel and have moved on to Paradise, then I assume they will be able to visit you in prison. However, until you accept the gospel, you will not be able to be with them in Paradise. The same applies to your wife.

There will undoubtedly be missionaries there, but I am unable to say for certain whether or not they will meet you there.

If your favorite pastor accepted the gospel he will be in paradise. If he did not accept the gospel, he will be in hell.

In my opinion, baptismal fonts will be in prison. 

It's hard for me to say whether or not you'll meet Jesus. The answer is probably not, at least not unless you acknowledge and embrace the gospel. 

Before you make a decision to follow the gospel, I don't believe Christ is involved. 

According to my knowledge, the agency that exists in the spirit realm is comparable to that which exists in our world. Which is something I don't understand at all. Does the presence of agency in the spirit world indicate the presence of other gospels and their teachings? Or is there no other option besides to either accept the everlasting gospel or to reject the everlasting gospel? If that's the only option available, then it doesn't really feel like much of a choice, does it? If you don't agree to this, I'll send you to hell, doesn't that sound more like a coercion scenario? 

When I first started studying about the gospel a few months ago, everything that I just explained to you sounded so straightforward to me at the time. However, as of right now, I'm not so sure. I am getting the impression that Spirit Paradise is a little too militaristic to be true. I've been following certain policies and doctrines, but I'm beginning to think that they are to tight and strict for a God who has the ability to know everything there is to know. Why is it that people have such a difficult time understanding the everlasting gospel when it is explained to them if the experience of being mortal is supposed to be a test to show our worthiness to God, as we think it is? When you are fully committed to and actively living the gospel in the manner in which you were instructed when you were a child, it is really strange how the message of the gospel can appear to be so straightforward and easy to grasp. However, based on the lessons I've learned over the course of the previous several months, it now appears to be quite convoluted and difficult to discover solutions that satisfy my curiosity. 

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Sara H

[Navidad]

51 minutes ago, webbles said:

Those who haven't received an ordinance before they died must wait till someone living does their proxy work.  Many believe that the dead are aware when the ordinances is being performed.  You might hear stories of people doing temple work feeling like the person they are helping is next to them or aware of what is happening.

Ok. That is helpful. I didn't know the first part. I thought there were going to be ordinances viz a vis baptisms in the spirit world? Am I wrong? I know a lady who regularly testifies in sacrament services to seeing the spirits of those for whom she is being baptized. They are always smiling or laughing - in a positive sense.

[Calm]

We don’t know much about specifics.  I don’t think we can even be sure Spirit Prison (an inaccurate name imo because our prison is our own limitations and inability to progress until we have enough comprehension of God’s ways as well as the necessary ordinances have been performed rather than something God imposes I believe) or Paradise are locations rather than simple states of being or mind as they are here in this life.  Someone standing next to me in the grocery line may be suffering in their own moment of hell while on the other there is someone living a life of joy and spiritual peace.  Otoh, we have analogous places, which would be for Spirit Prison actual prisons for those experiencing punishment in hell (self imposed or not, referred to as everlasting burnings) and schools or chapels for those who are being taught the Gospel and the ways of God.  So it could be either or both (chances are if it’s a location, it’s both as the people there are in those states of being as well)…hell for those suffering the agonies that drive us to repentance if love is not enough; a sense of being limited, not enough that drives us to learn more, to accept the Gospel, to learn to love God, ourselves, and others; the joy and peace of paradise that comes with being one with God).

As far as who we will be with, official revelation doesn’t suggest much though those in paradise seem to be able to be with family, but if one believes that NDEs are actual visitations of the afterlife, those suggest we will be with those we love and others that are important to us (which is why I lean towards paradise and hell being internal states rather than material locations).

NDE often have Christ appearing.  There is nothing in our teachings that prevents him from socializing with us except our own rejection of him at that point (so he probably doesn’t hit hell much, it at all), but we are taught our primary teachers will be the dead who have gone before us who have accepted the gospel and been called to the work of teaching souls.  Those who were great teachers and missionaries here may be in the afterlife as well.  Sometimes at funerals they speak of the loved one having been called to go home and they are now doing missionary work in the Spirit world.  Some may be inspired to say so or it may be a personal belief.  Can’t say which since I don’t read minds.   

There is one quote about a vision of the afterlife that is often referred to about “sociality” after we die and it being the same for us as before death.  I will try and find it.

added: found it, whole page might be useful

Quote

Latter-day Saint scripture teaches that the “samesociality which exists among us here will exist among us there [in eternity], only it will be coupled with eternal glory” (Doctrine and Covenants 130:2). 

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/heaven#:~:text=Latter-day Saint scripture teaches that the “same sociality which,and Covenants 130%3A2).

Added again:  I was wrong, that is the scripture that speaks of it, I am thinking of something else.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/130?lang=eng&id=2#2

This is the official teachings.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world?lang=eng

Edited August 20, 2023 by Calm

[webbles]

53 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Ok. That is helpful. I didn't know the first part. I thought there were going to be ordinances viz a vis baptisms in the spirit world? Am I wrong? I know a lady who regularly testifies in sacrament services to seeing the spirits of those for whom she is being baptized. They are always smiling or laughing - in a positive sense.

As far as I know, ordinances aren't performed in the spirit world.  They are performed by a living person in this world for the dead person.  The dead person then just has to accept the ordinance that was performed.  The ordinances require a physical body which is why we do it here.

[Calm]

Here is a talk with a great collection of quotes about the Spirit world.  I wouldn’t treat these as doctrine themselves, they may support doctrine of course.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/brent-l-top/thing-men-call-death-latter-day-saint-teachings-spirit-world/

[Navidad]

So in spirit paradise there will only be members of the LDS church? Will they be conscious of their LDSness at that time? Will the LDS church be the only Christian group to be carried over into the after-death world? Will I know I was a Mennonite in my earthly life? I guess I hear you and the others saying that Christ will judge us as to whether we were faithful LDS church members at the final judgment and how well those who lived that faith lived it, to determine between the higher kingdoms. For those of us who are not LDS in this life to live with Christ and the Father for eternity will solely depend on what we do with the LDS church and its ordinances in the after-life? That is a bunch of questions - no debate or disagreement. I just want to understand, if that is possible. 

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, Navidad said:

in spirit paradise there will only be members of the LDS church?

Not as defined in the here and now.

There will only be the Church of Jesus Christ.  All the error, misconceptions and prejudice and incompleteness that exists in our mortal Church will be absent in the eternal, celestial church.

I would not be surprised if there were aspects of other faiths that we lack that are present in the eternal Church. 

I would also not be surprised if it’s not called Church, but called Family.

Will they have to have ordinance work done prior to being there?  Seems unlikely if just a location because Christ told the thief he would be with him in paradise that day.  If a state of being, maybe?  Maybe ordinances contribute to unlocking that spiritual potential in some fashion.  But again unlikely in my view because of the thief.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

We call it Spirit Prison because Peter speaks of spirits being in prison***, but not the righteous and there were likely a lot of righteous who didn’t have ordinances prior to Jesus’ death.  They would have been waiting in paradise for Christ’s resurrection in order to move on to the next step of their own resurrection.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

I know some members assume they have to have received a proxy baptism in that the members believe that is required to receive the gospel, but I don’t believe that.

****It is the separation of bodies and spirit that is a prison and freedom is resurrection, so even those waiting in paradise are in that prison.

Quote

There are two major states or divisions among the spirits in the spirit world: paradise and spirit prison. Righteous spirits go to paradise, which is “a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow” (Alma 40:12). The spirits of people who haven’t yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ are said to be in spirit prison (see 1 Peter 3:18–20). They can still choose good or evil and accept or reject the gospel. The spirits in paradise can preach the gospel to them (see D&C 138). Those whose spirits and bodies are separated for a long time view this separation as “a bondage” (D&C 45:17; 138:50).

My bold

Edited August 20, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

Quote

The spirits are classified according to the purity of their lives and their obedience to the will of the Lord while on earth. The righteous and the wicked are separated (see 1 Nephi 15:28–30), but the spirits may progress as they learn gospel principles and live in accordance with them. The spirits in paradise can teach the spirits in prison (see D&C 138).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng
 

Quote

The Apostle Peter referred to the postmortal spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:18–20). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.

This is where I differ from what is generally taught.  I would really like to see the revelation that specifies we have to receive ordinances to be in paradise rather than for resurrection.  I think this is where interpretation may have made a potential error similar to the one that was potentially made about section 131 referring only to the Celestial Kingdom and not all the Celestial realm or Heaven in general.

This is the verse I believe we generally interpret to mean ordinances have to be performed before being in paradise.

Quote

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/138?lang=eng&id=53-60#p53

Receiving a reward though is generally referring to judgment and resurrection and what kingdom of heaven one is given by God.  I am thinking the principle being taught here is focused on what is happening with the dead, have they repented or not and there is an assumption the ordinances are ready when they are rather than this is about them having to sit in prison waiting to go to paradise for the ordinances.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

Navidad, are you aware of this section of the D&C?  It seems most relevant to what you are asking.  I should have posted it first, but am a bit out of it today.  We always point to the previous one, 137, but 138 is chock full of goodies too.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/138?lang=eng&id=50#50

added:  a discussion of its doctrine

https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2021/11/i-saw-the-hosts-of-the-dead/

Edited August 20, 2023 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

My assumption in the question is that I will die without having received any salvific LDS ordinances in this world, nor with anyone having done any proxy work for me

First of all, EVENTUALLY you WILL  have proxy work done, simply because the paradigm is that during the thousand years of "the millenium" with peace and Christ as literal king of the world, "Zion" there will be PLENTY of time to concentrate on doing genealogy for all humans who ever lived.

All?

Yes, that is the goal.  If there are records of your existence, you will have it done, and you can be sure of that.

And if you have NO records, because of the altered nature of the planet, the paradigm says that you will be able as spirit to appear to those doing temple work and give them the required info for them to do ALL the ordinances you now presumably desire to have done for you.

No one who wants the ordinances will be forgotten. 

Those who decide not have the ordinances will be in a place so wonderful, it has been said, that they would commit suicide to get to that Telestial Kingdom.

So ALL will have a shot at the Celestial Kingdom, and have no described " deadline" as to when they decide to go down the path of exaltation. 

Some believe the deadline to get on the path is after the Millennium at a final Judgement. I personally believe that would be enough but really who knows?

THIS as I understand it is the LDS paradigm. What we each believe may differ; the only actual restrictions are the temple interview questions.

 

[teddyaware]

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

I would enjoy it some of you here could walk me through (no pun intended) what exactly, in your doctrine of the post-death experience, will happen with or to me when I "wake up" in the spirit world? Someone on a thread recently talked about the "steps" a Christian and/or an atheist must go through at that time. How clear is your understanding of what will happen to me, or for that matter to a faithful member of the church at that time? My assumption in the question is that I will die without having received any salvific LDS ordinances in this world, nor with anyone having done any proxy work for me. What specifically will I see or do? Will my parents be there? My wife, if she proceeds me in death? Will a missionary greet me? Someone from the ward? Will my favorite pastor as a boy be there? Will there be LDS missionaries? Baptismal fonts? Will I see Christ, my GA emeritus friend? Will I be offered ordinances right away? Who will offer them to me? Is Christ involved at all at this point? I really am interested in your concept of the post-death experiences. It seem like the many funerals I have attended, the sermons and verbiage are pretty much like in any other church I have attended? Any books or literature, beyond the church website that you can recommend? Thanks so much . 

Doctrine and Covenants 138 beautifully answers your questions. Read, study and deeply ponder each verse of Section 138 and you’ll be richly rewarded, if you immerse yourself in this great revelation with an earnest and prayerful  spirit.

But to answer one of your questions: Section 138 reveals that there won’t be a single man or woman who ever lived who won’t eventually be baptized, either in the flesh or by proxy, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by the time of the final judgement.

57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they (the dead who repent) have paid the penalty of their transgressions (suffered for their sins the spirit prison in order to learn contrition and humility), and are washed clean (I.e. cleansed of their sins by vicarious baptism), shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

Edited August 20, 2023 by teddyaware

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

What specifically will I see or do? Will my parents be there? My wife, if she proceeds me in death? Will a missionary greet me? Someone from the ward? Will my favorite pastor as a boy be there? Will there be LDS missionaries? Baptismal fonts? Will I see Christ, my GA emeritus friend? Will I be offered ordinances right away? Who will offer them to me? Is Christ involved at all at this point?

Yes to all.

You might be surprised to see who is NOW a "convert" to the LDS paradigm, after learning more about how "the system" actually is theworks.

[mfbukowski]

39 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Doctrine and Covenants 138 beautifully answers your questions. Read, study and deeply ponder each verse of Section 138 and you’ll be richly rewarded, if you immerse yourself in this great revelation with an earnest and prayerful  spirit.

But to answer one of your questions: Section 138 reveals that there won’t be a single man or woman who ever lived who won’t eventually be baptized, either in the flesh or by proxy, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by the time of the final judgement.

57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they (the dead who repent) have paid the penalty of their transgressions (suffered for their sins the spirit prison in order to learn contrition and humility), and are washed clean (I.e. cleansed of their sins by vicarious baptism), shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

It's all so clear when you actually read the scriptures 

[mfbukowski]

Error

[Kevin Christensen]

This is my favorite approach.

And I wrote this: "Nigh Unto Death: NDE Research and the Book of Mormon"

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/jbms/vol2/iss1/2/

And there is the "Spirit World" Chapter in the Brigham Young Manual, which exists because Brigham Young had a NDE and subsequently taught from experience, rather than speculation or tradition.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-38?lang=eng

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

 

[Calm]

This is why I lean towards Paradise and Spirit Prison being more state of mind than location, except that those interested in learning the gospel likely gather together to be taught, but can also see missionaries visiting them as they do now.

Quote

In Joseph Smith’s visit to the Johnson farm mentioned earlier, he told Benjamin F. Johnson, “From a boy I have been persecuted … Why should I not wish for my time of rest?” And then he said, “I would not be far away from you, and if on the other side of the veil I would still be working with you, and with a power greatly increased, to roll on this kingdom.”  

This story highlights another important doctrine of the restored gospel: the spirit world is right here on earth and the spirits of our departed loved ones are in reality among us. This doctrine is as comforting to the Saints as it is unique among Christian beliefs of the afterlife. Our deceased family and friends are not gone, neither are they far, far away in some distant “heaven.” The Prophet Joseph Smith taught, “They are not far from us, and know and understand our thoughts, feelings, and motions, and are often pained therewith.”  

I think it is the unique doctrine of salvation for the dead that really gives personal meaning to the doctrine of the spirit world. The teachings of the early Brethren emphasized the nearness of our family, the nearness of the spirit world, the relationship between the two realms, and the fact that spirits continue to be interested and intimately involved in the Lord’s work on both sides of the veil.

https://www.ldsliving.com/life-after-death-6-insights-into-the-spirit-world/s/77329

Also of interest from the article:

Quote

Section 77 in the Doctrine and Covenants provides profound understanding on what the spirit world is like and how it compares to our mortal existence. The Lord told the Prophet Joseph, “That which is spiritual [is] in the likeness of that which is temporal; and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual.” This important principle teaches us not only that we have within our earthly tabernacle an immortal spirit that generally looks like our bodies, but also that, to a large degree, the spirit world looks and is organized like the earthly world. 

Brigham Young taught, “When you are in the spirit world, everything there will appear as natural as things now do. Spirits will be as familiar with spirits in the spirit world—will converse, behold, and exercise every variety of communication one with another as familiarly and naturally as while here in tabernacles. There, as here, all things will be natural, and you will understand them as you now understand natural things.” 

Quote

Though the spirit world will, as Brigham Young taught, appear just as natural as do things here on earth, it will be suffused with “inexpressible glory.”  I jokingly say that earthly life might be compared to regular television as it was first invented, and the spirit world is more like high-definition television, enhanced with incredible resolution and beautiful detail. 

That spiritual power and glory enables spirits, at least righteous spirits, to possess capacities and experience conditions that we cannot have in the quite same way in this fallen world with mortal bodies. That explains some of the most remarkable teachings of the early Brethren. 

Enhanced Travel

For example, Brigham Young taught that when enter into paradise we will be “free to travel with lightning speed.” He compared this spiritual movement, including what we today call “time travel,” to lightning or electricity (or perhaps we could add fiber optics, satellites, and internet). These, Brigham said, “furnish a fine illustration of the ability and power of the Almighty. … When we pass into the spirit world we shall possess a measure of this power.”  Perhaps this is what the Prophet Joseph meant when he said of described the righteous spirits as being “enveloped in flaming fire.”  Here is another example of enhanced capacities of the spirit bodies.

Enhanced Communication

Elder Orson Pratt spoke extensively of the mode of communication in the spirit world. There, he said, communication isn’t dependent upon sound waves and auditory nerves in our ears. Instead, we communicate mind to mind, spirit to spirit. In my research I came across many accounts of non-Latter-day Saint near-death experiencers who spoke of this telepathic communication. That may sound like something out of Star Trek, but in reality the scriptures and prophets describe it as the “spirit of revelation”—that is, God speaks to our minds and hearts (see Doctrine and Covenants 8:2–3). That is perfect communication.

Enhanced Learning

There is another aspect of this enhanced capacity of righteous spirits in the spirit world that I really look forward to—increased ability to learn and retain knowledge. President Brigham Young stated, “I shall not cease learning while I live, nor when I arrive in the spirit- world; but shall there learn with greater facility.”  Orson Pratt explained this ability by declaring: “Instead of thinking in one channel, knowledge will rush in from all quarters; it will come in light like the light which flows from the sun, penetrating every part, informing the spirit, and giving understanding concerning ten thousand things at the same time; and the mind will be capable of receiving and retaining all.”  

This last would not qualify as “doctrinal”, but adding as possible.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

I am wandering looking for useful references on this subject and came across this vision of Ann Booth’s that I don’t remember.  Thought Navidad might be interested.  Since John Wesley accepted the ordinances once received, surely Navidad, you will be all for them as well!  

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In the vision, John Wesley greeted the angelic messenger with a shout of praise and announced to those surrounding him that “Deliverance has Com.” With the attention of the entire assembly, Patten proceeded to preach baptism and confirmation. Hearing the good news, hundreds followed Wesley’s lead in shouting praise. “The marble floor was then removed and a River of watter clere as Cristall seemed to f[l]ow in it[s] place.” Patten and Wesley entered the pool together, and the father of Methodism was the first to be baptized. Then Patten ordained him to the Aaronic Priesthood, and Wesley baptized the rest of the prisoners. Booth identified the initial baptisms as those of Methodist ministers she had known and then her grandfather, an uncle, a sister, and her mother. “All these had lived and died Methodest.” Following their baptisms, Patten confirmed them members of the Church and bestowed the gift of the Holy Ghost. “Then instantly the darkeness dispersed and they ware all surrounded & envellopd in a Brilint light, such as suround’d the Apostle at the first.”9

https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/ann-booths-vision-and-early-conceptions-of-redeeming-the-dead-among-latter-day-saints/

 Not saying this was official or even a real vision….but it could be.   

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In the nineteenth century, believing Christians often shared revelatory experiences and visions with one another and even published them for public edification.13 It was not uncommon for early Latter-day Saints, including men and women of all ecclesiastical positions, to share what they believed to be revelatory dreams and visions. Often Saints found comfort in hearing their fellow members’ experiences with the gifts of the Spirit.14 On the other hand, sharing personal revelations occasionally led to problems with Saints wondering if they were bound to accept another’s vision as authoritative. In 1833, Joseph explained that when Church members “<have a vision> heavenly or a visitation from an hevenaly messenger it must be for their own benefit and instruction.”15 Such manifestations took on no official status, and Joseph would make clear at various points in his ministry that Church members could be deceived when assuming a revelation came from a divine source.16 However, when a vision did not oppose a revealed doctrine or attempt to direct the Church, early Saints found no reason to see the manifestation as threatening. It is significant that, in the case of Booth’s vision, even Apostles considered a manifestation received by a member of no ecclesiastical rank meaningful enough to record and share with others.

 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

This is why I lean towards Paradise and Spirit Prison being more state of mind than location, except that those interested in learning the gospel likely gather together to be taught, but can also see missionaries visiting them as they do now.

https://www.ldsliving.com/life-after-death-6-insights-into-the-spirit-world/s/77329

Also of interest from the article:

This last would not qualify as “doctrinal”, but adding as possible.

For me, of course, there is no "reality" which is not a "state of mind".

We cannot get past what our minds create.

Except, I believe, when we see things as they are, unencumbered by our bodies.

But I have had a body for a while now.

Edited August 20, 2023 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Not saying this was official or even a real vision….but it could be.

A real vision as opposed to.... what exactly?

😳

[Calm]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

A real vision as opposed to.... what exactly?

😳

A dream or a fraud

When I say a real vision, I mean one inspired by God

Not being able to read her mind, there is no way to tell, though her and her husband’s experience of turning to relevant scriptures confirmed it for both of them it seems. 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

Mark, you might find this paper about Brigham’s cosmology interesting…quote is continued next page

https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2274&context=etd

  

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Calm