The Mysteries of the Spirit World

[Navidad]

20 minutes ago, pogi said:

I see what you are saying, but I don't think it is unusual to project our beliefs (like the light of Christ, for example) onto others.   For instance, I think all Christians would agree that Hindu's were created by God, are part of His plan, that Christ paid for their sins allowing them to repent and accept Him, and that they will all be judged of God at final judgment.   Whether a Hindu claims it as their belief or not, we hold that it is true and let them know as much through proselytization.  In Mormonesque, we call it "building upon common beliefs".   For example, if a missionary was talking with a Hindu who may believe in the divine in all matter, the missionary would help them identify that as the light of Christ.  We believe in and experience the same divine spirit but call it by different names.   

In regards to the indwelling, when does the "indwelling" occur?  Is it something that is required for salvation?  Do all Christians experience it at some point?  How does one go about getting it?  IS it something that when received you have it with you always?  Can someone be influenced by the spirit who has not had the "indwelling"?

   

 

I wouldn't say that "Hindus" "Mormons" or "Baptists) were created by God . . . . etc. . . . I would say that humans were created by God, as part of His plan, etc. What is the criterion or criteria for Christ's decision-making on the Day of Judgment? That is a genuine question. I would love to know what you believe will be His criteria or criterion. How will the interview go? Will He ask Pogi different questions than Navidad and different questions of our Hindu, Catholic, Muslim, and Animist friends? I think each will have to "examine himself" as before the sacrament, give account of themselves before the one who already will know all about each one of us. If you tell him you lived on earth as a member of the LDS church will He smile, if I tell him I was a Mennonite will He frown, and if the next person tells Him he was a Hindu, will He scowl? I don't think so. What do you think? My assumption is that you, I, and our Hindi friend will stand before him just as we are today if we die today. How does time work on the other side? I don't know. How will we be organized on the other side? I don't know. Since we will have to give some kind of account of our lives I assume we will have cognizance of our life on earth. I served a mission. Will I get points for that? I don't really think so. I attended an LDS ward for six years and never joined. Will I lose points for that? I don't think so. How will the ultimate decision regarding my eternal life be made? I am not a self-assured person. I can't imagine walking up to the throne for my judgment in a self-assured manner. Will you? You seem pretty self-confident on this forum. I am the one always talking about provisional certainty. I will say however, I think that is an attribute, not a fault. But I am not certain! 

If that missionary converts that Hindu to the LDS church, will that change that person's interview with the Lord on judgment day? If so, how? If a Baptist missionary converts him, will that change that person's interview with the Lord on judgment day? How does Christ's mercy fit into judgment day decision-making?

To answer your other questions, I believe the indwelling occurs at the time of faith - repentance and acknowledgement of the atonement. It isn't required for salvation, it is a byproduct of salvation. All Christians receive it at that point; not all will experience it or implement it in their lives. Precious few Christians will avail of it consistently. The Holy Spirit is the comforter; not all want comfort. The Holy Spirit is the one who convicts. Not all want to be convicted. The Holy Spirit teaches patience, meekness, love, mercy, humility. Not all want patience, meekness, love, mercy, or humility.  I can't answer whether I believe we have the indwelling 100% of the time in our lives? I kind of doubt it. I believe we are taught we can grieve the Holy Spirit. But I also don't assume that grievance is permanent, except in some severe cases. One doesn't get it. It is given. Yes, I think someone can be influenced by the Spirit prior to salvation. That is one way we are convicted of our need.

I think that is the flaw in the Moroni test. Why would the Holy Spirit convict me of a need that I don't have, of a truth that I already believe? If I told you as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to read John 3:16 and then pray real hard, that you would then be led by the Spirit to become a Mennonite and to receive the gift of the Spirit, what would you say? Do you have have a need to convert to another church? If so, maybe the answer would be yes. If you are spiritually happy, fulfilled, growing, and sensing the indwelling of the Spirit  where you are, I think the answer would be no, or no thank you.

I have great assurance in a merciful God. I don't believe mercy is found in a handbook. I don't think salvation is found in a church or in a church's doctrinal statement. Take care and best wishes.

[Leaf474]

21 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

What I said was, I think, that WE can relate easier to a God who is embodied. 

Further there is the immanent vs transcendent issue; I believe it would be contradictory to imagine a being who was both at the same time.

But I get it that some things must be taken on faith, and of course there ARE mysteries in ALL religions and words cannot "correspond to reality".

I am simply seeing it MY WAY, which everyone has a right to do!

And besides I am a postmodernist which means that "my truth" doesn't have to agree with "your truth".

 

21 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

All of us need to follow our own paths, even if we do not comprehend all the others.

Okay, 64,000 question: Does that hold for our relationship with Heavenly Father? Can we say to him that we get to choose our own path, and, I suppose the implication is, he shouldn't be all judgy about it with us?

21 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

 We can agree to disagree!

It's all only words, that's all!

 

[pogi]

48 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I wouldn't say that "Hindus" "Mormons" or "Baptists) were created by God . . . . etc. . . . I would say that humans were created by God, as part of His plan, etc. What is the criterion or criteria for Christ's decision-making on the Day of Judgment? That is a genuine question. I would love to know what you believe will be His criteria or criterion. How will the interview go? Will He ask Pogi different questions than Navidad and different questions of our Hindu, Catholic, Muslim, and Animist friends? I think each will have to "examine himself" as before the sacrament, give account of themselves before the one who already will know all about each one of us. If you tell him you lived on earth as a member of the LDS church will He smile, if I tell him I was a Mennonite will He frown, and if the next person tells Him he was a Hindu, will He scowl? I don't think so. What do you think? My assumption is that you, I, and our Hindi friend will stand before him just as we are today if we die today. How does time work on the other side? I don't know. How will we be organized on the other side? I don't know. Since we will have to give some kind of account of our lives I assume we will have cognizance of our life on earth. I served a mission. Will I get points for that? I don't really think so. I attended an LDS ward for six years and never joined. Will I lose points for that? I don't think so. How will the ultimate decision regarding my eternal life be made? I am not a self-assured person. I can't imagine walking up to the throne for my judgment in a self-assured manner. Will you?

I think you have misunderstood my point and intent with that comment.  I was not questioning or commenting about the criteria of judgement if one is or is not Christian, but simply showing you that you too project beliefs upon people who believe differently from you.  Despite not believing in your God, you still hold that non-Christians will stand before Him to be judged.  Despite not believing in your God, you still affirm that they were created by Him etc.   It doesn't matter if they believe it or not.   Latter-day Saints are doing the same thing with the light of Christ.  Just trying to help you understand that it is not much different from what you do.    

48 minutes ago, Navidad said:

You seem pretty self-confident on this forum. I am the one always talking about provisional certainty. I will say however, I think that is an attribute, not a fault. But I am not certain! 

I'm not sure where you are coming from with this comment or what it has to do with what I said, but I have long denied certainty.  I don't believe men can know absolute truth.  I believe in Holism.  I believe we are all blind men palpating the elephant.   I guess what I believe comes pretty close to "provisional certainty" as you describe it. 

48 minutes ago, Navidad said:

If that missionary converts that Hindu to the LDS church, will that change that person's interview with the Lord on judgment day? If so, how? If a Baptist missionary converts him, will that change that person's interview with the Lord on judgment day? How does Christ's mercy fit into judgment day decision-making?

Again, this is all beside the point I was making.  

48 minutes ago, Navidad said:

To answer your other questions, I believe the indwelling occurs at the time of faith - repentance and acknowledgement of the atonement. It isn't required for salvation, it is a byproduct of salvation. All Christians receive it at that point; not all will experience it or implement it in their lives. Precious few Christians will avail of it consistently. The Holy Spirit is the comforter; not all want comfort. The Holy Spirit is the one who convicts. Not all want to be convicted. The Holy Spirit teaches patience, meekness, love, mercy, humility. Not all want patience, meekness, love, mercy, or humility.  I can't answer whether I believe we have the indwelling 100% of the time in our lives? I kind of doubt it. I believe we are taught we can grieve the Holy Spirit. But I also don't assume that grievance is permanent, except in some severe cases. One doesn't get it. It is given. Yes, I think someone can be influenced by the Spirit prior to salvation. That is one way we are convicted of our need.

Thanks for explaining.  These are honest questions, not trying to trick you or catch you.

In your belief can non-Christians not receive the gifts of patience, meekness, love, mercy, humility, comfort, etc. through the Holy Spirit?  Can they speak with these gifts?  If not, then by what gift do they receive or speak it? 

48 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I think that is the flaw in the Moroni test. 

There is no flaw with praying for answers to anything one has questions about. 

48 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Why would the Holy Spirit convict me of a need that I don't have, of a truth that I already believe?

That's not what the Moroni test is about.   The Moroni test is simply praying about the Book of Mormon.  Praying about becoming a member of another Church is a different thing, another prayer. 

48 minutes ago, Navidad said:

If I told you as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to read John 3:16 and then pray real hard, that you would then be led by the Spirit to become a Mennonite and to receive the gift of the Spirit, what would you say?

I would say I would convert to be a Mennonite in a second if I felt that is where God directed me after praying about it.  But what does John 3:16 have to do with that?

48 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Do you have have a need to convert to another church? If so, maybe the answer would be yes. If you are spiritually happy, fulfilled, growing, and sensing the indwelling of the Spirit  where you are, I think the answer would be no, or no thank you.

If you are tasting spiritual fruits, I agree that is good.  It doesn't mean there can't be more.  I am always looking and open to where the Lord might direct me.  I am not going to take my spiritual fruits as an indication that there isn't more good for me to learn or new places for me to go.  

I think the critical part in all this is that it shouldn't be based in what we think we need or believe.  It is about humbling ourselves in prayer for God to direct us where He wants us.  I am not trying to convert you to Mormonism.  If you haven't been reading my comments lately, know that I am on my own spiritual journey right now and am open.  I do believe in the principles of prayer and asking questions and seeking guidance though - that is all Moroni's test is about. 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by pogi

[Leaf474]

21 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Remember Spirit IS matter.

Well, in that case, it doesn't "matter" what kind of body any of us have, does it?

21 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

He has a body of spirit and so communicates with our spirits.

 

[Leaf474]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

1. Realize that YOUR spirit was individually made by God to be his son/ daughter.

Made in the sense of formed out of matter that was already existent? Prior to me being formed, was the matter that would become me differentiated in some way from the rest of matter?

[Navidad]

4 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Can we say to him that we get to choose our own path, and, I suppose the implication is, he shouldn't be all judgy about it with us?

Hi: Can you please explain what you mean by this? What do you mean by "choose our own path?" I am not sure the question is "He shouldn't be all judgy about it with us as much as "will He be all judgy about it with us?" But then I am not sure what you are suggesting when you say "we get to choose our own path?" Thanks.

[Navidad]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

think you have misunderstood my point and intent with that comment.  I was not questioning or commenting about the criteria of judgement if one is or is not Christian, but simply showing you that you too project beliefs upon people who believe differently from you.  Despite not believing in your God, you still hold that non-Christians will stand before Him to be judged.  Despite not believing in your God, you still affirm that they were created by Him etc.   It doesn't matter if they believe it or not.   Latter-day Saints are doing the same thing with the light of Christ.  Just trying to help you understand that it is not much different from what you do.    

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I will have to ponder on this part a bit. Right now I think what I am putting forth is worlds different from what my LDS friends do. I am too tired and too much on edge right now to respond well. I own that. A few posts above someone downvoted a post I made in which I quoted, almost verbatim several real live conversations about us in our ward, including factual details about the area president. Someone else said he couldn't imagine that kind of a conversation in his ward. Well, I didn't have to imagine it. I experienced it in part and my wife experienced it in part. Take care and best wishes. I think I need a break!

[teddyaware]

3 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Made in the sense of formed out of matter that was already existent? Prior to me being formed, was the matter that would become me differentiated in some way from the rest of matter?

The answer to your question is a resounding yes.  But after reading your posts, I don’t think it would be worth taking the time and effort to try to explain it to you.

Edited August 26, 2023 by teddyaware

[Calm]

49 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

The answer to your question is a resounding yes.  But after reading your posts, I don’t think it would be worth taking the time and effort to try to explain it to you.

Leaf has been nothing but cordial and seems sincerely curious to me. I don’t understand why you think it’s not worth the effort unless you only think the value of sharing our beliefs is for conversion and correction.

Leaf, I will be happy to provide whatever info you are interested in and there are probably quite a few others who love to talk religion with anyone curious. 

[Calm]

I am using official sources first (though adding my own commentary which may or may not be accurate doctrine, lots is from members dissecting revelation, so actually speculation) so you know what the Church teaches.  Since there isn’t much actual detail in official teachings, my post after the next one will have stuff from other references just to provide ways members have thought about and explained these teachings.  There is a massive amount of this out there because we live to debate what it all means….well some of us do.  

 This may duplicate some info already posted, too unfocused to reread the thread right now.  

Intelligence the term can be confusing because we (Saints) use it in three ways. See here for scriptures list using the term and explanation of meanings:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/intelligence-intelligences?lang=eng#title1

There are two lines of thought (added:  actually reminded there are at least 5, these two are the ones I hear most) about our uncreated selves in the Church.  One is the first existence was as spirit children, that God formed us out of refined matter or adopted us as we were already formed; here, intelligence and spirit means the same thing (they were used interchangeably by some early leaders, see below quote where it speaks of us as an unembodied spirit as well as an intelligence), suggesting the elements were not originally a unique being or that God and Heavenly Mother adopted our spirits/children as his children. Everything said about the preexistence when we were spirit children is therefore talking about us as intelligences.
 
The more common belief currently is we were originally an uncreated, eternal being that we call an intelligence that is of a different element than what our spirits are made out of (some make it confusing by calling this element intelligence as well suggesting these elements were brought together to form the being, but not so; the being has always existed in this view).  Think of it as a sentient, gendered** male or female (but what eternal gender actually means is unknown); it is unknown what we were capable of though. My guess is we were capable of learning, interacting in a limited way with our surroundings and we had agency (I do know one leader taught we didn’t have agency, but I believe we could at least accept or reject God’s gift to be part of his family…I don’t believe there are spirits out there wandering around in despair, who never rejoiced that God gave them a spirit, though some may have later changed their minds when God encouraged them it was time to move to the next step), though limited because of our limited abilities. God taking us into his family and giving us spirit bodies allows us to progress more and likely faster, perhaps we would never have been able to gather spirit elements around ourselves and created our own spirit bodies if God hadn’t done that for us, but perhaps after many eons, we intelligences (at least some) might have managed.  It is the same with the next step of physical bodies. I have personally speculated there may be further bodies that we will acquire, depends on what is needed to fully interact in a progressive, godly fashion with our environment, but there is no hint of that in our beliefs except for the doctrine of eternal progression…which may be defined in several ways.

———

Official teachings…

This link is to our basic doctrinal/set of beliefs manual. I advise anyone serious about learning about us to read it as it provides the overall framework of our doctrine (with references for why we believe this).  

It limits discussion to when we were the spirit children of God though, no mention of intelligence (though depending on the version one chooses, it might not matter).  See chapter 1 and 2

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles?lang=eng

The second manual that is focused on exploring doctrine is more useful for this topic, it covers pretty much the same things, just more detail and references.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/6-premortal-life?lang=eng#p2

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“The Lord made it known to Moses (See Book of Moses Chap. 3.) and also to Abraham (Abraham Ch. 3) and it is expressed in several revelations, that man was in the beginning with God. In that day, however, man was a spirit unembodied. The beginning was when the councils met and the decision was made to create this earth that the spirits who were intended for this earth, should come here and partake of the mortal conditions and receive bodies of flesh and bones. The doctrine has prevailed that matter was created out of nothing, but the Lord declares that the elements are eternal. Matter always did and, therefore, always will exist, and the spirits of men as well as their bodies were created out of matter. We discover in this revelation that the intelligent part of man was not created, but always existed. There has been some speculation and articles have been written attempting to explain just what these ‘intelligences’ are, or this ‘intelligence’ is, but it is futile for us to speculate upon it. We do know that intelligence was not created or made and cannot be because the Lord has said it. There are some truths it is well to leave until the Lord sees fit to reveal the fulness” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Church History and Modern Revelation, 1:401).

If it is not in these two manuals, it is probably a good idea to consider the possibility that it’s speculation**** or at least a belief that officially is not fleshed out much.  Intelligence is one of these topics. We talk a lot about what was going on for us as spirit children, but very little is known about what existence was like before that.

I am just urging caution approaching this and other more obscure aspects of our faith. We like to have answers and sometimes assume reasoned ideas are actual doctrine…but they are not. Even our leaders have been known to speculate, especially early on in our history. Doctrine is seen as revealed knowledge, eternal truth though many of our teachings are filling in the gap with reason, meaning it may be put aside with further revelation and sometimes what we believe is doctrine is just our messed up understanding of actual godly truth. Reason is not sufficient because we may be missing crucial information that alters our logic, even at a fundamental level.  We also allow for leaders and members to make mistakes with interpretation of revelation, we are very line upon line as a faith***. This means later teachings appear and may even actually contradict previous teachings, that went beyond actual doctrine (speaking of doctrine as eternal truth and not just what we teach and believe is truth). However, as a rule we would say revelation is eternal, unchanging truth…our understanding is what changes. 
 

**https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/the-family-a-proclamation-to-the-world/the-family-a-proclamation-to-the-world?lang=eng#p3

Quote

All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/family?lang=eng#p60

****https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine
 

***https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng#p6

Quote

We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.” —Articles of Faith 1:9

 

Edited August 26, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

Adding these articles from the Church’s website….not that they add info, but saying things in multiple ways may help.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2015/02/what-we-know-about-premortal-life?lang=eng#p4

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Each of us “is a beloved spirit son ordaughter of heavenly parents” with “a divine nature and destiny.” Before our spiritbodies were created, we each existed as “intelligence,” which “had no beginning, neither will it have an end.”

This full article covers most of what we are taught generally about the preexistence.

These are most of the scriptures we interpret as relating to premortal life:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/premortal-life?lang=eng#p17
 

This talk by an apostle presents the historical and other context of premortal teachings very well for its briefness, imo.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1985/10/premortality-a-glorious-reality?lang=eng#p29

 

Discusses relevant modern scripture:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/the-pearl-of-great-price-student-manual-2018/the-book-of-abraham/abraham-3-1-28?lang=eng#title14

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Abraham 3:18–23. The Spirit Children of Heavenly Father

Abraham learned that there are varying degrees of intelligence among Heavenly Father’s spirit children. (Abraham called the spirit children of our Heavenly Father “spirits” in Abraham 3:18–19, “intelligences” in verse 22, and “souls” in verse 23.) He learned that God dwelled in the midst of all the spirits or intelligences and that God “is more intelligent than they all” (verse 19).

Abraham 3:18–23. The Premortal Existence

The Prophet Joseph Smith stated: “God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 210).

Abraham 3:18–19. What Does it Mean to Be “More Intelligent”?

Speaking of the differences between spirits, President Joseph Fielding Smith said: “We know they were all innocent in the beginning; but the right of free agency which was given to them enabled some to outstrip others, and thus, through the eons of immortal existence, to become more intelligent, more faithful, for they were free to act for themselves, to think for themselves, to receive the truth or rebel against it” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie [1954], 1:59).

Abraham 3:18–19. Our Spirits Are Eternal

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it has a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic” (Teachings: Joseph Smith, 210).

Speaking about the eternal nature of our spirit, President Brigham Young (1801–77) stated:

“Mankind are organized of element designed to endure to all eternity; it never had a beginning and never can have an end. There never was a time when this matter, of which you and I are composed, was not in existence, and there never can be a time when it will pass out of existence; it cannot be annihilated.

“It is brought together, organized, and capacitated to receive knowledge and intelligence, to be enthroned in glory, to be made angels, Gods—beings who will hold control over the elements, and have power by their word to command the creation and redemption of worlds, or to extinguish suns by their breath, and disorganize worlds, hurling them back into their chaotic state. This is what you and I are created for” (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [1971], 48; see also D&C 93:29–33).

Regarding the origin of our spirits in the premortal life, President Marion G. Romney (1897–1988) of the First Presidency taught: “In origin, man is a son of God. The spirits of men ‘are begotten sons and daughters unto God’ (D&C 76:24). Through that birth process, self-existing intelligence was organized into individual spirit beings” (“The Worth of Souls,” Ensign, Nov. 1978, 14).

Elder Neal A. Maxwell (1926–2004) wrote: “Admittedly we do not now understand all the implications of the words, ‘spirits … have no beginning; they existed before … for they are … eternal’ (Abraham 3:18). Yet we surely understand enough to see a loving and redeeming God at work, striving to help us become as He is—a cause for our deep gratitude and joy, instead of despair and doubt, and for a willing submission to whatever He perceives will further that purpose” (“Not My Will, But Thine” [1988], 40).

Abraham 3:19–21. The Lord Is “More Intelligent than They All”

Elder Neal A. Maxwell wrote: “Let us not forget that great insight given us about the premortal world. The ascendancy of Jesus Christ (among all of our spirit brothers and sisters) is clearly set forth. Of Him it was said that He is ‘more intelligent than they all.’ (Abraham 3:19.) … Moreover, what the Lord knows is, fortunately, vastly more—not just barely more—than the combination of what all mortals know” (All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience [1979], 22).

Abraham 3:22–23. The Noble and Great Ones

Among the spirits or intelligences that Abraham saw were many “noble and great ones” (Abraham 3:22). God said that these noble and great spirits were good and that He would make them His rulers. Abraham was one of the noble and great ones. President Joseph F. Smith (1838–1918) also saw in a vision many of the noble and great spirits “who were chosen in the beginning to be rulers in the Church of God” (D&C 138:55). Of them President Smith stated: “Even before they were born, they, with many others, received their first lessons in the world of spirits and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in his vineyard for the salvation of the souls of men” (D&C 138:56).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-93-truth-is-knowledge-of-things?lang=eng

 

Quote

 

D&C 93:23. Man Was in the Beginning with God

As explained in Doctrine and Covenants 29:30–33, the Lord used the word beginning only because finite mortals cannot grasp completely that all things are eternal. The word beginning may refer to the time when we began as the spirit offspring of God or to the time when the earth began as a temporal sphere.

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that the intelligent part of man has always existed: “The spirit of man is not a created being; it existed from eternity, and will exist to eternity. Anything created cannot be eternal.” (History of the Church, 3:387.)

 

 

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-harold-b-lee/chapter-2?lang=eng#p6
 

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“As I thought about it I remarked that we do use words rather loosely when we speak of the ‘life before this, and this life, and the next life,’ as though we were a cat of nine lives, when as a matter of fact, we only have one life. This life we speak of did not begin with mortal birth. This life does not end with mortal death. There is something that is not created or made. The Scriptures called it ‘intelligence,’ which at a certain stage in the pre-existence was organized into a ‘spirit.’ After that spirit had grown to a certain stature it then was given the opportunity by an all-wise Father to come into another stage for its development. It was added upon, and after having lived its span and having attained to its purpose in mortality, another change took place. We go, not into another life in fact, but into another stage of the same life. There is something which was not created or made, and something which does not die, and that something shall live on forever.”

Quote

Now there are several precious truths found in that scripture. In the first place, we have just a hint, just a flash of what a spirit is. A spirit, did you hear Abraham saying, was an organized intelligence. This is the first beginning we have in our understanding of what a spirit is. It is an organized intelligence that lived as a spirit before this world was. Now what does a spirit look like? What kind of a conception do you have of that spirit? Well, the Lord has given through the Prophet Joseph Smith, an inspired answer, a part of which reads as follows: “That which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal; and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual.” Now listen, “the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature which God has created.” [D&C 77:2.]

All right, now, you see me here as a mature physical man. There is a part of me that you can’t see with your physical eyes—that spiritual part of me that looks out through my eyes and gives me power of movement, and gives me a measure of intellect and intelligence. …

Now that is the first truth that we learn—that there was an organized intelligence that was called … a spirit. Here the Lord [Jehovah], who was that great illustrious spirit like unto God [the Father], came among those organized intelligences called spirits, and He said to them, We will make an earth whereon you as spirits may dwell, and you who live worthy here in the spirit world can go down upon that earth and be added upon. And so those spirits who kept their faith, shall I say, or were worthy, were permitted to come on the earth and have added to their spiritual body, a physical body here on this earth. … The fact that you and I are here on this earth with a physical body is an evidence that we were among those who kept our first estate; we passed the test and were permitted to come here. If we hadn’t passed the test we wouldn’t be here; we would be down with Satan trying to tempt the ones who had a body. …

 

Edited August 26, 2023 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Leaf has been nothing but cordial and seems sincerely curious to me. I don’t understand why you think it’s not worth the effort unless you only think the value of sharing our beliefs is for conversion and correction.

Leaf, I will be happy to provide whatever info you are interested in and there are probably quite a few others who love to talk religion with anyone curious. 

Likewise 

[Calm]

Now to nonofficial sources…I might add some later, though in a new post so you won’t miss them

https://rsc.byu.edu/pearl-great-price-revelations-god/history-intelligence-latter-day-saint-thought
 

There is so much here, I am not going to quote it.  If you want a detailed, but not too analytical and not too much commentary discussion of various ideas from past and more recent church leaders, this is likely your best reference.  I will quote his ending because I like it.

Quote

Perhaps, as President Smith and Elder McConkie have counseled us, we, as a people, could make better use of our time in studying subjects about which we have had more revealed. Still, as we bring this essay to a close, let us hazard a few additional speculative thoughts.

Perhaps God has told us that there is something about us which is eternal, while at the same time placing us upon an earth where we all experience death, to remind us how precious existence really is. The fact that there is something rather than nothing should cause us, at least for a few moments in the span of our lives, to be grateful that we, in fact, exist. We should remind ourselves that each person is important to God, and we should be special to each other. We will all, even the wicked, according to the Gospel plan, exist forever as individuals. There is no such thing as spiritual or resurrected suicide.

It is also possible that we have been told through the scriptures that we are eternal to keep us cognizant of how much we need each other. Whenever I get depressed or discouraged and, like Alma of old, want to cease to exist, I think of how much the existence of my wife, my children, and my fellow ward members mean to me. Then I become conscious once more, or at least hope once more, that there are some people who need me as much as I need them.

Perhaps we are also taught that we are not totally the creation of God, so we cannot blame Him for what we are or what we become. We are morally responsible for that which is us. With God’s help we can become as He is, but if we fail it is our own fault.

It is also possible that he has revealed so much more about our spiritual existence so as to teach us how much we really do owe Him. Most, if not all, of what we are that is important we can credit to our Heavenly Father.

It is possible, further, that because we are individuals, at least as far back as we know, this is one of the reasons Jesus talked so much about unity and love. In the universe there are many; so He preached unity. Moreover, through his atonement, the many may in a powerful sense become one. The last great sermon he gave, as recorded in John 17, speaks again and again about love and unity, which seemed to be utmost in his mind as he drew closer to his own death as noted by Phillip Barlow in an unpublished talk at the 1985 Church Education System New Testament Symposium.

Finally, it is nice to know that we are something and not nothing; that we have existed, we do exist, and we will continue to exist, because intelligence, whatever it might be, was not created, neither indeed can be.

Don’t have time to read this one, but know the author has good stuff, though not always traditional or ‘classic Mormonism’.  He is a philosopher.

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V15N01_61.pdf
 

This really gets into the nitty gritty differences of the theories in his listing of them…but alas, no ultimate truth can be given.  It is a popular philosophical discussion topic among Saints…but not much solid content at its core, pretty much boiled down to we have always existed in some form.

http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2011/07/preexistence-an-overview/2754/

Quote

There are currently, so far as I can tell, five distinctive models in LDS thought for our pre-existent state.

1.- Eternal Spirits in an eternal relationship with God and eternally of the same essence as God. – Sometimes attributed to Joseph Smith and championed by Blake Ostler, this notion is that we have always existed and have always been in the relationship we are now in with the Godhead. This concept faces the challenge of eternity and progression, ie- why did it take us so long to get to this life on earth? It also is commonly challenged by the spiritual creation narrative from the Book of Moses, though this is often dismissed by claims of doctrinal supersession. Some, like Geoff J, have used concepts like Multiple Mortal Probations to alleviate this challenge. In terms of Spirit Birth, there is no beginning, so no birth.

2. Eternal Spirits in a Non-eternal relationship with God but eternally of the same essence as God.- Also attributed to Joseph Smith, this concept was once speculated by Truman Madsen (When he wasn’t championing BH Roberts). It speculates that the Godhead was formed at a specific point in time via covenant for the purpose of bringing about God’s plan. By extension, just as the relationships of the Godhead had a beginning, so also do our relationships with God. While this sidesteps the challenge of eternity and progression, it does not completely eliminate it, and it also brings up the question of Joseph’s Ring Analogy (If there was a beginning, there must be an end). Another major challenge is that it has never been popularized by a prominent LDS leader or teacher. In terms of Spirit Birth, Spirit Birth is limited to merely being the adoptive change of state we go through via accepting our relationship with God the Father.

3. Eternal Spirits called Intelligences in a Non-eternal relationship with God and not eternally of the same essence as God (lacking a spirit body)- Here we have the concept championed by BH Roberts, and popularized by Truman Madsen. The main difference between this and #2 above is that it attempts to harmonize #2 with concepts and statements put forth by Brigham Young or the Pratts which called for Spirit Birth, as well as ideas like those found in the Book of Moses (spirit creation) with statements from Joseph Smith in the King Follet Discourse and in the Book of Abraham revelation. (spirits without beginning or end). This plan merely divides the pre-mortal state into segments, moving from amorphous intelligence to spirit body. Challenges to this concept include it being initially derided by higher general authorities, it’s having been intellectually thoughr out, rather than arrived upon via official revelation, and its common (though unnecessary) connection with spiritual vivaporous birth. This is one of the primary areas of spirit birth, though there is a range of belief as to how literal this birth is, going from a literal sexual act where spirit seed fertilizes spirit eggs, through less literal views up to something closely resembling #2 above.

4.Non-Eternal Spirits formed from unintelligent matter called intelligence and not eternally of the same essence as God (lacking a spirit body)- Championed by Brigham Young, this notion, it is argued, comes from the early apostles missing out (due to missionary work) on the later sermons of Joseph Smith, which were not verified nor widely available until BH Roberts published History of the Church. (or possibly until JFSII abridged it to TOPJS). Here we have something fundamentally similar to creation ex-nihilo, where God as creator takes the chaos of eternal matter, forming it so that our spirits may emerge naturally or supernaturally from within. Good spirits go on to greatness, while the bad ones face eventual obliteration, decomposing back to the raw material from which they came. Being like ex nihilo, it faces the challenges therein. Whether it escapes the problem of determinism depends on whether you feel life is naturally emergent from formed intelligence or if you believe God supernaturally made it so. However, naturally emergent life comes with its own set of challenges, primarily the lack of need for a creator. Sprit Birth here is typically of the sexual variety, though again, not really out of necessity. It could just as well be a chemistry set.

5. Non-Eternal Spirits formed from intelligent Matter called intelligence and not eternally of the same essence as God (lacking a spirit body)- Here we have Pratt and Pratt’s concept of spiritual atomism, with intelligent subparts coming together and forming, via synergy with God, a being greater than the sum of their parts. I always fail at describing this one correctly, having not been interested enough to dig through the seer and gaining most of what I know about it from the letter in which it is repudiated. So I’ll leave this one to more capable hands

 

 

Edited August 26, 2023 by Calm

[Leaf474]

10 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi: Can you please explain what you mean by this? What do you mean by "choose our own path?" I am not sure the question is "He shouldn't be all judgy about it with us as much as "will He be all judgy about it with us?" But then I am not sure what you are suggesting when you say "we get to choose our own path?" Thanks.

Hi Navidad, I was responding to something @mfbukowski wrote.

 

I'm still learning the quoting system here, so maybe there's a better way to do this, but

________________

On 8/24/2023 at 3:25 PM, mfbukowski wrote:

 ...I am a postmodernist which means that "my truth" doesn't have to agree with "your truth".

All of us need to follow our own paths, even if we do not comprehend all the others. We can agree to disagree!

_________________

So in a sense, I'm asking mfbukowski the same thing you're asking me... What do you mean by that? And does God see it the same way in his relationship with us? Does he tell us to each have our own truth?

[Leaf474]

10 hours ago, teddyaware said:

The answer to your question is a resounding yes.  But after reading your posts, I don’t think it would be worth taking the time and effort to try to explain it to you.

Well, I believe I asked two questions there, so I'm not sure which one you are saying Yes to.

 

But if you don't want to talk about it, that's fine 🙂

[Leaf474]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

I am using official sources first (though adding my own commentary which may or may not be accurate doctrine, lots is from members dissecting revelation, so actually speculation) so you know what the Church teaches.  Since there isn’t much actual detail in official teachings, my post after the next one will have stuff from other references just to provide ways members have thought about and explained these teachings.  There is a massive amount of this out there because we live to debate what it all means….well some of us do.  

 This may duplicate some info already posted, too unfocused to reread the thread right now.  

Intelligence the term can be confusing because we (Saints) use it in three ways. See here for scriptures list using the term and explanation of meanings:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/intelligence-intelligences?lang=eng#title1

There are two lines of thought (added:  actually reminded there are at least 5, these two are the ones I hear most) about our uncreated selves in the Church.  One is the first existence was as spirit children, that God formed us out of refined matter or adopted us as we were already formed; here, intelligence and spirit means the same thing (they were used interchangeably by some early leaders, see below quote where it speaks of us as an unembodied spirit as well as an intelligence), suggesting the elements were not originally a unique being or that God and Heavenly Mother adopted our spirits/children as his children. Everything said about the preexistence when we were spirit children is therefore talking about us as intelligences.
 
The more common belief currently is we were originally an uncreated, eternal being that we call an intelligence that is of a different element than what our spirits are made out of (some make it confusing by calling this element intelligence as well suggesting these elements were brought together to form the being, but not so; the being has always existed in this view).  Think of it as a sentient, gendered** male or female (but what eternal gender actually means is unknown); it is unknown what we were capable of though. My guess is we were capable of learning, interacting in a limited way with our surroundings and we had agency (I do know one leader taught we didn’t have agency, but I believe we could at least accept or reject God’s gift to be part of his family…I don’t believe there are spirits out there wandering around in despair, who never rejoiced that God gave them a spirit, though some may have later changed their minds when God encouraged them it was time to move to the next step), though limited because of our limited abilities. God taking us into his family and giving us spirit bodies allows us to progress more and likely faster, perhaps we would never have been able to gather spirit elements around ourselves and created our own spirit bodies if God hadn’t done that for us, but perhaps after many eons, we intelligences (at least some) might have managed.  It is the same with the next step of physical bodies. I have personally speculated there may be further bodies that we will acquire, depends on what is needed to fully interact in a progressive, godly fashion with our environment, but there is no hint of that in our beliefs except for the doctrine of eternal progression…which may be defined in several ways.

———

Official teachings…

This link is to our basic doctrinal/set of beliefs manual. I advise anyone serious about learning about us to read it as it provides the overall framework of our doctrine (with references for why we believe this).  

It limits discussion to when we were the spirit children of God though, no mention of intelligence (though depending on the version one chooses, it might not matter).  See chapter 1 and 2

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles?lang=eng

The second manual that is focused on exploring doctrine is more useful for this topic, it covers pretty much the same things, just more detail and references.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/6-premortal-life?lang=eng#p2

If it is not in these two manuals, it is probably a good idea to consider the possibility that it’s speculation**** or at least a belief that officially is not fleshed out much.  Intelligence is one of these topics. We talk a lot about what was going on for us as spirit children, but very little is known about what existence was like before that.

I am just urging caution approaching this and other more obscure aspects of our faith. We like to have answers and sometimes assume reasoned ideas are actual doctrine…but they are not. Even our leaders have been known to speculate, especially early on in our history. Doctrine is seen as revealed knowledge, eternal truth though many of our teachings are filling in the gap with reason, meaning it may be put aside with further revelation and sometimes what we believe is doctrine is just our messed up understanding of actual godly truth. Reason is not sufficient because we may be missing crucial information that alters our logic, even at a fundamental level.  We also allow for leaders and members to make mistakes with interpretation of revelation, we are very line upon line as a faith***. This means later teachings appear and may even actually contradict previous teachings, that went beyond actual doctrine (speaking of doctrine as eternal truth and not just what we teach and believe is truth). However, as a rule we would say revelation is eternal, unchanging truth…our understanding is what changes. 
 

**https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/the-family-a-proclamation-to-the-world/the-family-a-proclamation-to-the-world?lang=eng#p3

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/family?lang=eng#p60

****https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine
 

***https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng#p6

 

Thanks for all that research!

 

One thing I'm interested in is how the "Saint on the street" discusses these things. Sometimes an official Church teaching can be different from how the average member understands it.

 

For example, I believe an official Catholic Church teaching is that contraception is wrong. But many, maybe most, American Catholics are okay with it. So there may be a difference between what the Vatican says and what the "American Catholic on the street" says 🙂

 

So when the LDS Church - or the average Saint - uses the phrase "...man was in the beginning with God", are they referring to an absolute beginning, or the beginning of something like this universe? Or something else?

[rodheadlee]

11 hours ago, Navidad said:

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I will have to ponder on this part a bit. Right now I think what I am putting forth is worlds different from what my LDS friends do. I am too tired and too much on edge right now to respond well. I own that. A few posts above someone downvoted a post I made in which I quoted, almost verbatim several real live conversations about us in our ward, including factual details about the area president. Someone else said he couldn't imagine that kind of a conversation in his ward. Well, I didn't have to imagine it. I experienced it in part and my wife experienced it in part. Take care and best wishes. I think I need a break!

Sorry you are so offended by a down vote. I just couldn't believe it was a real conversation. 

How do you think Jesus Christ feels when people think His Works aren't real.?

Edited August 26, 2023 by rodheadlee

[Nofear]

1 hour ago, Leaf474 said:

So when the LDS Church - or the average Saint - uses the phrase "...man was in the beginning with God", are they referring to an absolute beginning, or the beginning of something like this universe? Or something else?

Most latter-day saints won't have really dug down into the topic. Calm's nice posts shows a variety of opinions. The Church concerns itself more with how we align our behaviors with what the Savior would have of us and less of theological subtleties. That is orthopraxy > orthodoxy.

For my part, I believe the universe extends into the infinite past. But, not as it currently is. The Big Bang initiated the conditions to create the universe we have now. But, the conditions that set up the Big Bang (it is not the start of time) ... we don't know much about that.

[Leaf474]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

Now to nonofficial sources…I might add some later, though in a new post so you won’t miss them

https://rsc.byu.edu/pearl-great-price-revelations-god/history-intelligence-latter-day-saint-thought
 

There is so much here, I am not going to quote it.  If you want a detailed, but not too analytical and not too much commentary discussion of various ideas from past and more recent church leaders, this is likely your best reference.  I will quote his ending because I like it.

Don’t have time to read this one, but know the author has good stuff, though not always traditional or ‘classic Mormonism’.  He is a philosopher.

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V15N01_61.pdf
 

This really gets into the nitty gritty differences of the theories in his listing of them…but alas, no ultimate truth can be given.  It is a popular philosophical discussion topic among Saints…but not much solid content at its core, pretty much boiled down to we have always existed in some form.

http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2011/07/preexistence-an-overview/2754/

 

Thanks for all the information ❤️

 

Could a Saint believe that from all eternity there was undifferentiated matter, meaning that there wasn't a piece or section of matter that said Leaf on it, or Calm, or Heavenly Father, but at some point along the way pieces of matter became those beings... could a Saint believe that and still reasonably give the right answers to the temple recommend questions?

[Leaf474]

9 minutes ago, Nofear said:

Most latter-day saints won't have really dug down into the topic. Calm's nice posts shows a variety of opinions. The Church concerns itself more with how we align our behaviors with what the Savior would have of us and less of theological subtleties. That is orthopraxy > orthodoxy.

For my part, I believe the universe extends into the infinite past. But, not as it currently is. The Big Bang initiated the conditions to create the universe we have now. But, the conditions that set up the Big Bang (it is not the start of time) ... we don't know much about that.

Wow, that's what an Evangelical circles people might call a "God moment." I go through the posts one by one, so I didn't see yours until I had already posted my most recent one to @Calm.

 

Because orthopraxy, and I'm thinking here of what beliefs might prevent a person from entering the temple, is one of the key things I'm interested in.

 

So thanks for bringing that up!

[Navidad]

5 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Sorry you are so offended by a down vote. I just couldn't believe it was a real conversation. 

How do you think Jesus Christ feels when people think His Works aren't real.?

Good afternoon: I wasn't really offended by your down vote. I guess I was disappointed in it. I took a lot of time and was very careful to be accurate in all that I portrayed and said in that post. I will make a commitment right here and now that I will never make something up, or falsify something here for any purpose. Someone in a post mentioned the Light of Christ and it brought to my mind those conversations.

I guess I would hope that some here would have down voted (speaking metaphorically) the conversation I relayed, not me for having relayed it. My experience in that LDS folks in our ward and those to whom I speak at times, have a harder time reconciling their faith's doctrine when it comes down to the person in front of them, that they do saying "X number of anonymous Fundamentalists are Y or most Evangelicals are Z." I think sometimes doctrine causes conflict when it paints a negative picture of someone whom you have gotten to know well. Therefore it creates dissonance for the person who is trying to maintain doctrinal loyalty, but at the same time experiences an inconsistency in that because of the person in front of them who they have come to respect, appreciate, and perhaps in some way, love. When for example, someone is taught all their lives that a non-LDS Christian does not and cannot have the Gift of the Holy Spirit and then you meet and know for years someone (my wife for example) who consistently week-in and week-out in many different settings displays the gifts of the Spirit that emanate from the Gift of the Spirit, that can create dissonance with what one has always been taught that just isn't possible.

I don't know what you mean with your last sentence. I have stared at it trying to parse it for some minutes now without success. I simply can't figure out what you are trying to say with your question. I would appreciate it if you would clarify, but if you prefer not to, that is fine. Best wishes this Saturday afternoon.

[Navidad]

4 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Wow, that's what an Evangelical circles people might call a "God moment." I go through the posts one by one, so I didn't see yours until I had already posted my most recent one to @Calm.

 

Because orthopraxy, and I'm thinking here of what beliefs might prevent a person from entering the temple, is one of the key things I'm interested in.

 

So thanks for bringing that up!

Hi Leaf: I am an Evangelical and I am a huge fan of orthopraxy as well. I am much more interested in living the Christian experience than understanding the depths of the pre-existence or even of the post-mortality. I did start this thread however, so that shows I have some interest in LDS Eschatology. In my experience, in my Evangelical world, we don't use the phrase orthopraxy very much, but my LDS friends have enlightened me on it, and I appreciate that very much. Welcome to the forum!

[Leaf474]

31 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Hi Leaf: I am an Evangelical and I am a huge fan of orthopraxy as well. I am much more interested in living the Christian experience than understanding the depths of the pre-existence or even of the post-mortality. I did start this thread however, so that shows I have some interest in LDS Eschatology. In my experience, in my Evangelical world, we don't use the phrase orthopraxy very much, but my LDS friends have enlightened me on it, and I appreciate that very much. Welcome to the forum!

Thank you for the welcome 🙂

 

One thing I'm interested in exploring is how much range of belief is allowed within the LDS Church. I think that relates to orthopraxy: suppose a person is "living right" but believes x. Well that belief prevent them from taking certain roles in the church in practice?

 

To use an example from a different church, the largest church in my small town says that baptism were full immersion is required for salvation. I'd still be welcome to attend if I didn't believe that; in fact I'm sure they would want me to attend! But if I wanted to volunteer to be, say, I youth group leader, that would be right out.

 

Thank you for allowing this discussion in your thread 🙂

[Leaf474]

Just now, Leaf474 said:

Thank you for the welcome 🙂

 

One thing I'm interested in exploring is how much range of belief is allowed within the LDS Church. I think that relates to orthopraxy: suppose a person is "living right" but believes x. Well that belief prevent them from taking certain roles in the church in practice?

 

To use an example from a different church, the largest church in my small town says that baptism were full immersion is required for salvation. I'd still be welcome to attend if I didn't believe that; in fact I'm sure they would want me to attend! But if I wanted to volunteer to be, say, I youth group leader, that would be right out.

 

Thank you for allowing this discussion in your thread 🙂

I made some typos in that. Is there a way to edit posts?

 

Anyways, I use voice typing, so if you just think of what words might have sounded alike, that can make the sentences make more sense 😃

[manol]

On 8/25/2023 at 9:20 AM, Leaf474 said:

Is the idea that since all is one, the goal is not so much to become like God or to become a God, but to realize that you are already a God or God?

I am under the impression that “all is one” is not a doctrine of the LDS Church. I am under the impression that, in this context, the LDS Church emphasizes separation rather than union.

That being said, imo there are teachings within the LDS Church which imply that we are part of God (“I am the vine and you are the branches” from the 15^th chapter of John), and there are teachings which imply that God is part of us (“he is in all things, and through all things” from the 88^th section of the Doctrine & Covenants).

My current belief (speaking as a former Latter-day Saint) is largely informed by near-death experience accounts. I see them as uncurated latter-day revelation, and my impression is that they support an “all is one” or “we are part of God” paradigm moreso than a “separate and distinct” paradigm. However I think either can be useful; @mfbukowski has on multiple occasions written about the pragmatic utility of the LDS paradigm.

In case anyone is interested, here is a compilation of near-death experience accounts about oneness; I find them sort of mind-blowing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3DYRbVa9A0&t=1s

And last but not least, near-death experiencer Jeff Olsen (who has an LDS background), from his vision of the Sermon on the Mount:  "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God in everything."  (emphasis mine)

Edited August 27, 2023 by manol