The Mysteries of the Spirit World

[Leaf474]

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Because then God is like us, and we can become like him.

He as a Father and Jesus as his Son means they more approachable and can relate to us and vice versa much easier.

Their work is to help us become as they are.

Thanks for the input ❤️

 

Before Jesus came to Earth, did he have a body?

[mfbukowski]

41 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Thanks for the input ❤️

 

Before Jesus came to Earth, did he have a body?

I would say the church would say no, quite clearly.  

[mfbukowski]

59 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Thanks for the input ❤️

 

Before Jesus came to Earth, did he have a body?

Yes, Jesus was the God Jehovah of the Old Testament 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/premortality?lang=eng

Premortality

Lesson 3: Jehovah and His Premortal Ministry

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/jesus-christ-and-the-everlasting-gospel-teacher-manual/lesson-3-jehovah-and-his-premortal-ministry?lang=eng

Edited August 23, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Leaf474]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I would say the church would say no, quite clearly.  

 

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes, Jesus was the God Jehovah of the Old Testament 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/premortality?lang=eng

Premortality

Lesson 3: Jehovah and His Premortal Ministry

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/jesus-christ-and-the-everlasting-gospel-teacher-manual/lesson-3-jehovah-and-his-premortal-ministry?lang=eng

Thanks for the input, but I didn't see in the links where I talked about Jesus having a body before coming to Earth. Was there a particular place in those links to look?

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Thanks for the input ❤️

 

Before Jesus came to Earth, did he have a body?

Physical body, no.  Spiritual body of refined matter, whatever that is, yes.  Apparently to those given the ability it looks much like our physical bodies, but that may be an effect of the vision.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/ether/3?lang=eng

Quote

6 And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said these words, behold, the Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones one by one with his finger. And the veilwas taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell downbefore the Lord, for he was struck with fear.

7 And the Lord saw that the brother of Jared had fallen to the earth; and the Lord said unto him: Arise, why hast thou fallen?

8 And he saith unto the Lord: I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me; for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.

9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

10 And he answered: Nay; Lord, show thyself unto me.

11 And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?

12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.

16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Physical body, no.  Spiritual body of refined matter, whatever that is, yes.  Apparently to those given the ability it looks much like our physical bodies, but that may be an effect of the vision.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/ether/3?lang=eng

 

Thanks. I didn't have a chance to get back here.

Also we have the birth of Jesus showing he had no body until that time.

This for me also shows that the Adam/God paradigm doesn't work; that would enable an unembodied Jehovah/Adam to Father children, which it seems to me is not consistent with other Doctrines, it also would then have to be that Jehovah "fell" along with Adam, as the same person 

[MiserereNobis]

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Because then God is like us, and we can become like him.

He as a Father and Jesus as his Son means they more approachable and can relate to us and vice versa much easier.

Their work is to help us become as they are.

I don’t believe God the Father has a body, and I believe there is a stark difference between creator and created.

I have never thought that this makes God the Father less approachable or that He is somehow unable to relate to us. Such a view would certainly diminish His omniscience. And it would certainly fly contrary to the experiences I have had.

In traditional Christian theology, the Incarnation of Christ is key to this discussion. A timeless God chooses to enter time and space and take on flesh and mortality. Since God is timeless, God has always had this experience. 
 

[teddyaware]

17 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I don’t believe God the Father has a body, and I believe there is a stark difference between creator and created.

I have never thought that this makes God the Father less approachable or that He is somehow unable to relate to us. Such a view would certainly diminish His omniscience. And it would certainly fly contrary to the experiences I have had.

In traditional Christian theology, the Incarnation of Christ is key to this discussion. A timeless God chooses to enter time and space and take on flesh and mortality. Since God is timeless, God has always had this experience. 
 

Does the incarnation of Christ diminish his omniscience?

[MiserereNobis]

16 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Does the incarnation of Christ diminish his omniscience?

Not in the least. The Incarnation has always been part of His omniscience, as has every experience that ever has been.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

This for me also shows that the Adam/God paradigm doesn't work; that would enable an unembodied Jehovah/Adam to Father children, which it seems to me is not consistent with other Doctrines, it also would then have to be that Jehovah "fell" along with Adam, as the same person 

Exactly.  We teach resurrection means the permanent joining of body and spirit, never to be separated again, but the multiple mortal probations contradict that with the belief that those resurrected still go through a loss of their immortal body prior to birth, getting it back again after death, etc.  I don’t know how MMP addresses spirit prison/paradise/hell as in time is spent there or the recycling happens relatively quickly (Lori Daybell apparently believes her niece is the incarnation of her sister who died as an infant, so not that long in her book…but I don’t know if she is typical MMP believer, borrowing full ideas from the originators of those beliefs or she and her partner in crime just made it up to fit their own agenda).

PS:  I do not know if Adam God is actually a multiple mortal probations belief system with everyone going through MMPs or if Brigham saw the need for a resurrected being to take on the Adam role as happening to only a few very advanced individuals and MMP proponents took his idea and expanded it big time.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Calm

[teddyaware]

7 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Not in the least. The Incarnation has always been part of His omniscience, as has every experience that ever has been.

Does this mean that if the Father did happen to have a body, in the exact likeness of his Son’s glorified body, that his omniscience wouldn’t be negatively impacted as well? To put the same question another another way: if God the Father did have a glorified body, in the exact likeness of  his Son’s glorified body, would it negatively impact the fullness of his divinity in any way?

[Leaf474]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

Physical body, no.  Spiritual body of refined matter, whatever that is, yes.  Apparently to those given the ability it looks much like our physical bodies, but that may be an effect of the vision.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/ether/3?lang=eng

 

Thanks, that helps 👍

 

But what's this in verse 14

"Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son."

 

I thought the Father was separate from the Son. Or is this the Godhead speaking?

[Leaf474]

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Thanks. I didn't have a chance to get back here.

 

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Also we have the birth of Jesus showing he had no body until that time.

Okay, so no physical body for Jesus before he came to Earth.

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

This for me also shows that the Adam/God paradigm doesn't work; that would enable an unembodied Jehovah/Adam to Father children, which it seems to me is not consistent with other Doctrines, it also would then have to be that Jehovah "fell" along with Adam, as the same person 

Does a being have to have a physical body in order to father children?

[Leaf474]

11 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I don’t believe God the Father has a body, and I believe there is a stark difference between creator and created.

I have never thought that this makes God the Father less approachable or that He is somehow unable to relate to us. Such a view would certainly diminish His omniscience. And it would certainly fly contrary to the experiences I have had.

In traditional Christian theology, the Incarnation of Christ is key to this discussion. A timeless God chooses to enter time and space and take on flesh and mortality. Since God is timeless, God has always had this experience. 
 

That's an interesting way of looking at it.

 

I've studied lots of different aspects of Christianity - I'm probably closest to Evangelical right now.

 

If it's true that a being has to have a physical body in order to father children, then it sounds like Heavenly Father is operating inside of a system he himself didn't design?

[Nofear]

1 hour ago, Leaf474 said:

Does a being have to have a physical body in order to father children?

We are the literal spirit children of Heavenly Parents. We don't know the process by which spirit children are made and so I don't know if it is a technical requirement. Theologically speaking, only glorified and exalted beings with physical bodies seem to be creating spirit children.

Why would God want a physical body? Well, Spirit Matter and Physical Matter have a pretty low interaction rate. With just a spirit body, much of the universe would be beyond one's perception and interaction. Same if I only had a spirit body. God, who has dominion over all the universe, has ready access to both physical and spirit matter -- something much more possible because he has both a physical and spirit body.

Anyway, that's one way of thinking about it from a materialistic perspective, which, as a physicist, I pretty much am -- I just don't limit myself to the physical materialism. Not strictly a requirement of LDS theology though quite a few early thinkers thought in a similar way (e.g. the Pratts, even if they got several things wrong).

[Nofear]

1 hour ago, Leaf474 said:

... then it sounds like Heavenly Father is operating inside of a system he himself didn't desi

LDS theology do not require that God the Father be the "first cause" of everything and that his glory is in no way diminished if he is co-eternal with other stuff. There is a fundamental part of us that is uncreate and co-eternal with God (that we existed in some form or another before he and his wife organized spirit bodies for us).

[mfbukowski]

On 8/22/2023 at 1:30 PM, Leaf474 said:

Hi! It seemed really important to the missionaries I was talking to that God has a body. Why would that be important to them?

If you want to take that farther, it is pretty clear biblically that God was believed to be embodied.

Joseph's revelations say that he ORGANIZED existing matter - no creation "ex nihilo". 

Most Fundamentalist Christians believe that God is like an immaterial cloud of spirit so far removed from us that there is no logical way to understand him as " father".

That distance between God and matter leads to the idea that "material" things are "dirty", - not from holy realms - and with that goes Original Sin - being embodied connotes being on some inferior status that could never be like God or become God.

But if God is embodied, He is not associated with that tendency to see matter as beneath Him.

We do not have Original Sin- we are born sinless.

Spirit  Joseph taught, is  Material as well  But more refined.

 We know today that matter in fact, can release energy, and does so to an amazing degree, as shown by an atomic bomb .   So to some degree we can conclude that spirit is some kind of energy .

 All of this flows from the idea that God is  embodied and more

- Dictated, Please excuse errors

Edited August 24, 2023 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

47 minutes ago, Nofear said:

LDS theology do not require that God the Father be the "first cause" of everything and that his glory is in no way diminished if he is co-eternal with other stuff.

 Also, philosophers from the 1700s and on have shown that the concept of a first cause is incoherent

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hume#:~:text=Hume argued that inductive reasoning,"constant conjunction" of events.

Edited August 24, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Leaf474]

55 minutes ago, Nofear said:

We are the literal spirit children of Heavenly Parents. We don't know the process by which spirit children are made and so I don't know if it is a technical requirement. Theologically speaking, only glorified and exalted beings with physical bodies seem to be creating spirit children.

Why would God want a physical body? Well, Spirit Matter and Physical Matter have a pretty low interaction rate. With just a spirit body, much of the universe would be beyond one's perception and interaction. Same if I only had a spirit body. God, who has dominion over all the universe, has ready access to both physical and spirit matter -- something much more possible because he has both a physical and spirit body.

Anyway, that's one way of thinking about it from a materialistic perspective, which, as a physicist, I pretty much am -- I just don't limit myself to the physical materialism. Not strictly a requirement of LDS theology though quite a few early thinkers thought in a similar way (e.g. the Pratts, even if they got several things wrong).

That's interesting, thanks for the input 🙂

 

The Holy Ghost doesn't have a body, does he? How then does he interact with us?

[Nofear]

16 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

That's interesting, thanks for the input 🙂

 

The Holy Ghost doesn't have a body, does he? How then does he interact with us?

Joseph Smith, when speaking about the work for the dead wrote this:

“I will open your eyes in relation to the dead. All things whatsoever God in his infinite wisdom has seen fit and proper to reveal to us, while we are dwelling in mortality, in regard to our mortal bodies, are revealed to us in the abstract, and independent of affinity of this mortal tabernacle, but are revealed to our spirits precisely as though we had no bodies at all; and those revelations which will save our spirits will save our bodies," TPJS p475.

I extend the line of thinking a bit and suggest that the Holy Ghost speaks to our spirit body. Because we are bound to it, our physical body has some interaction with it (exactly how it works I don't know). Consequently, it is possible for two individuals to receive the same influence of the Holy Ghost and their perceptions vary as how their physical body responds to stimulus of their spirit body may not be identical. Would also explain why it's hard to pin down "feeling the Spirit". It varies from person to person and event to event.

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Most Fundamentalist Christians believe that God is like an immaterial cloud of spirit so far removed from us that there is no logical way to understand him as " father".

Yet the Holy Spirit is our "comforter" and he is an immaterial cloud of spirit.  Are you now speaking for "most Fundamentalist Christians?" 😀 I didn't know you knew that many. 🙃

The Lord's Prayer in Matt. 6 is quite a common and comforting prayer prayed across most all Christian groups, is it not? It is a prayer to the Father and is very personal. It teaches about relationships and provision on several levels. Come to think of it I am not sure I have ever heard an LDS quoting the Lord's Prayer. Of course my sample population is limited. Oh and "Abba" is a very personal and endearing Aramaic term for the Father that is used by both Christ and believers. Methinks love, endearment, and comfort may not indeed always be "logical." Wouldn't you agree? Take care.

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Joseph's revelations say that he ORGANIZED existing matter - no creation "ex nihilo". 

There is a growing concept among Evangelicals that creation ex-nihilo and the use of the Hebrew "Barah" means God took pre-existent matter and material that was without form and substance (function) and gave it function, believing that "without form and substance" meant without function, meaning, or purpose. In Gen 1 creation God took all that was pre-existent and gave it meaning and function in supporting and sustaining life. That is very different from a belief that "Barah" meant creation from nothing. "The times, they are a changin'." We aren't in the fifties anymore!

Edited August 24, 2023 by Navidad

[Leaf474]

3 hours ago, Nofear said:

LDS theology do not require that God the Father be the "first cause" of everything and that his glory is in no way diminished if he is co-eternal with other stuff. There is a fundamental part of us that is uncreate and co-eternal with God (that we existed in some form or another before he and his wife organized spirit bodies for us).

Thanks for the information ❤️

 

It does seem to me that reincarnation would be the next step in thinking, or at least a possibility. It would be strange that we always existed, came to Earth for a blink of an eye, and then will exist forever in one of the Heavenly Kingdoms, or even hell, without a chance of progressing to a higher level.

[MiserereNobis]

7 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Does this mean that if the Father did happen to have a body, in the exact likeness of his Son’s glorified body, that his omniscience wouldn’t be negatively impacted as well? To put the same question another another way: if God the Father did have a glorified body, in the exact likeness of  his Son’s glorified body, would it negatively impact the fullness of his divinity in any way?

I don’t think so, but what do I know. The point I was responding to is that having a body does not mean he can relate to us more than not having a body.

This whole line of inquiry invariably ends up in paradox. Logic can only take us so far, and then it breaks down. It is often in this breakdown, beyond the language upon which logic relies, that I feel greater union with God.

[Leaf474]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

If you want to take that farther, it is pretty clear biblically that God was believed to be embodied.

Joseph's revelations say that he ORGANIZED existing matter - no creation "ex nihilo". 

Most Fundamentalist Christians believe that God is like an immaterial cloud of spirit so far removed from us that there is no logical way to understand him as " father".

That distance between God and matter leads to the idea that "material" things are "dirty", - not from holy realms - and with that goes Original Sin - being embodied connotes being on some inferior status that could never be like God or become God.

But if God is embodied, He is not associated with that tendency to see matter as beneath Him.

We do not have Original Sin- we are born sinless.

Spirit  Joseph taught, is  Material as well  But more refined.

 We know today that matter in fact, can release energy, and does so to an amazing degree, as shown by an atomic bomb .   So to some degree we can conclude that spirit is some kind of energy .

 All of this flows from the idea that God is  embodied and more

Fascinating, and thanks for that info too. I was just wondering if the kind of Monism that one sees in Hinduism can be found in LDS thinking as well. It looks like it can be.

 

There's just one substance, matter. It exists in different states of "refinement".

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

- Dictated, Please excuse errors

I totally get you on that, I use voice typing too 😀