10 virgins- why were they foolish?

[MustardSeed]

I recently heard it suggested that we re- examine our assessment of the 5 “foolish” virgins.  Rather than teach and believe that they are foolish because they come unprepared, instead to believe that they are foolish, because they believed the fear mongering of the self righteous other five. The so-called foolish virgins were there. They had oil in their lamp. They stayed overnight. They were doing all of the same things the others were doing, the only difference is that they did not have extra oil.  
Had they trusted in the bride groom he would most likely have shared his light with them, because their hearts were in the right place.  
This would change the moral of the story to be, rather than scarcity and panic around am I good enough, to

“show up, do the work, and trust God to do the rest”. 
Do you think there’s any problem with, what is in my opinion, a more gentle version of Jesus? 

[Tacenda]

13 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I recently heard it suggested that we re- examine our assessment of the 5 “foolish” virgins.  Rather than teach and believe that they are foolish because they come unprepared, instead to believe that they are foolish, because they believed the fear mongering of the self righteous other five. The so-called foolish virgins were there. They had oil in their lamp. They stayed overnight. They were doing all of the same things the others were doing, the only difference is that they did not have extra oil.  
Had they trusted in the bride groom he would most likely have shared his light with them, because their hearts were in the right place.  
This would change the moral of the story to be, rather than scarcity and panic around am I good enough, to

“show up, do the work, and trust God to do the rest”. 
Do you think there’s any problem with, what is in my opinion, a more gentle version of Jesus? 

I never liked this parable. I remember a Relief Society lesson on it and women dressed in the attire they might have worn and going room to room. 

Just dislike it so much, and "virgins" really?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I recently heard it suggested that we re- examine our assessment of the 5 “foolish” virgins.  Rather than teach and believe that they are foolish because they come unprepared, instead to believe that they are foolish, because they believed the fear mongering of the self righteous other five. The so-called foolish virgins were there. They had oil in their lamp. They stayed overnight. They were doing all of the same things the others were doing, the only difference is that they did not have extra oil.  
Had they trusted in the bride groom he would most likely have shared his light with them, because their hearts were in the right place.  
This would change the moral of the story to be, rather than scarcity and panic around am I good enough, to

“show up, do the work, and trust God to do the rest”. 
Do you think there’s any problem with, what is in my opinion, a more gentle version of Jesus? 

The foolish virgins did show up and do the work, as far as they could tell, but nobody did the rest for them -- even the bridegroom did not share.

When I first read your post, I thought, "Maybe the 5 wise could share with those who lacked, trusting that the bridegroom would arrive in the last saving moment before everyone's lamp went out altogether." But then I thought, they were wise because they watched (anticipated potential problems), not knowing the exact time of arrival, and this is the concluding lesson of the parable.

The bridegroom knows (by mutual contact or acquaintance) his guests and what is expected of them, whether they actually or ostensibly wish to greet him. He denies knowing them once they act "ostensibly" because he knows - meaning accepts as well as being acquainted/in contact - only his true friends by their inclinations and actions.

Maybe the bridegroom had every reason to trust that all 10 virgins would be prepared for any contingency (after all, the journey may be fraught with risk and danger), and 5 let him down.

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by CV75

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

But then I thought, they were wise because they watched (anticipated potential problems), not knowing the exact time of arrival, and this is the concluding lesson of the parable.

But need it be?  This parable gives me (and others) so much anxiety.  
I much prefer this other interpretation.  Can scripture mean something different than the pat interpretation we have been fed over and over in Sunday school? 

[CV75]

12 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

But need it be?  This parable gives me (and others) so much anxiety.  
I much prefer this other interpretation.  Can scripture mean something different than the pat interpretation we have been fed over and over in Sunday school? 

Yes, I believe the Spirit can teach multiple lessons from the same parable and scripture. "Pat" and "fed over and over" is a matter of attitude, I guess! But I think the CFM approach to group discussion permits a nice exchange of ideas and testimony.

Parables are effective when they are relatable. I can relate to the foolish virgins, having the terrible experience of being desperately unable to reverse negative spiritual consequences fast enough, no matter who (people or God) was there to help, and no matter how compassionate*. This is due to loss of the necessary spiritual perspective and power, a function of very individual choice; agency does rest solely upon us. If I were to alter the parable, it would be to add another five virgins that went and bought as soon as they realized the bridegroom tarried.

I think “show up, do the work, and trust God to do the rest” is taught in other scriptures also, such as the laborers in the field, storing treasures in heaven, the mustard seed, instructions to the disciples in the Sermon on the Mount, etc. Alma 32 is a big one, and the example of the widow feeding Elijah.

* Luke 13:34, "how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!"

[MustardSeed]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I never liked this parable. I remember a Relief Society lesson on it and women dressed in the attire they might have worn and going room to room. 

Just dislike it so much, and "virgins" really?

I don’t know for sure that Jesus actually used the word virgins.  It’s the term used by the interpreters but I don’t like it myself either. 

[Rain]

Misreading Scriptures with Western Eyes talks about how has westerners we see an awful lot of "me" in the scriptures - it has been amazing to me how much we do that.  However, culturally in eastern lands they are more likely to read (and write) from a we point of view.

Also, the authors talk about how there are 3 stories in a row (2 in chapter 34), about when the time is. One story put it as now.  One as earlier than you think. The virgins is later than you think.  

Maybe the story isn't so much about how foolish or self-righteous individual virgins are, but how they are preparing together as a group or family.  We talk a lot about family history and "we without our dead".  Could this be illustrating that we should try to all be one together so that whenever He comes that the family (all God’s children) will be ready? Not a rhetorical question.  Just wondering about the possibilities.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Rain

[MustardSeed]

Sounds like a book I would like to read. I have a long had a problematic relationship with my scriptures. 

[Rain]

22 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Sounds like a book I would like to read. I have a long had a problematic relationship with my scriptures. 

I love it so far.  I have it on kindle, but reccomend it in paper form - the index at the back where the references are has page numbers that don't work with kindle and using the search function doesn't always work well with it.

The authors are clear on the idea of not taking it as they say, but giving you other possibilities you may miss because of context.

[MorningStar]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I don’t know for sure that Jesus actually used the word virgins.  It’s the term used by the interpreters but I don’t like it myself either. 

I’ve always taken it to mean “brides to be.” 

[CV75]

21 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

I’ve always taken it to mean “brides to be.” 

That would emphasize the bridegroom's expectations for them to wait, but is also shows how Zion/the Church is united, symbolically, as the bride of Christ.

[MorningStar]

I’ve heard it explained that the oil is like a testimony. We can’t transfer our knowledge to another person or live on our parents’ testimony. Also, the way oil lamps are shaped, you can’t pour oil from one lamp into another lamp. 

[Rain]

1 hour ago, MorningStar said:

I’ve heard it explained that the oil is like a testimony. We can’t transfer our knowledge to another person or live on our parents’ testimony. Also, the way oil lamps are shaped, you can’t pour oil from one lamp into another lamp. 

That would be interesting to check out.  You could in the lamps we got in Israel, but I am under no impression that they are accurate reproductions.  I am curious what shape they would be that you could get oil in them, but not from another lamp.

[bluebell]

I think that if that interpretation is useful to someone then it’s valid. 

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, MorningStar said:

I’ve heard it explained that the oil is like a testimony. We can’t transfer our knowledge to another person or live on our parents’ testimony. Also, the way oil lamps are shaped, you can’t pour oil from one lamp into another lamp. 

I have an unpopular opinion- I think we can be deeply impacted by someone else’s testimony. I think we can live on parents testimony to a certain degree.  Or on Nephis.  Or on Joseph’s. But I of course understand the sentiment. 

 

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I have an unpopular opinion- I think we can be deeply impacted by someone else’s testimony. I think we can live on parents testimony to a certain degree.  Or on Nephis.  Or on Joseph’s. But I of course understand the sentiment. 

 

It shouldn’t be an unpopular opinion Imo for a Saint given D&C 46.

Quote

13 To some it is given by the holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

There is also the parable I hear among members where we can light our own candles (testimonies) from others’ flames and then light others’ candles in the same way. 

Edited May 27, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, MorningStar said:

the way oil lamps are shaped, you can’t pour oil from one lamp into another lamp. 

I would think you could easily from the shape, but perhaps not while they were lit as the wick might fall out. 

But maybe you could use your thumb to catch the end of the wick against the bottom of the lamp and then pour.

However, the personal lamps one would carry are small it seems and the spare oil was likely not in the lamp but in a container which was constructed just for that purpose, to pour oil into lamps.

https://www.israeltoday.co.il/read/oil-lamps-from-the-time-of-jesus-remind-us-of-the-ten-virgins/

Edited May 27, 2023 by Calm

[BlueDreams]

23 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I recently heard it suggested that we re- examine our assessment of the 5 “foolish” virgins.  Rather than teach and believe that they are foolish because they come unprepared, instead to believe that they are foolish, because they believed the fear mongering of the self righteous other five. The so-called foolish virgins were there. They had oil in their lamp. They stayed overnight. They were doing all of the same things the others were doing, the only difference is that they did not have extra oil.  
Had they trusted in the bride groom he would most likely have shared his light with them, because their hearts were in the right place.  
This would change the moral of the story to be, rather than scarcity and panic around am I good enough, to

“show up, do the work, and trust God to do the rest”. 
Do you think there’s any problem with, what is in my opinion, a more gentle version of Jesus? 

I'll be honest, I don't really like the analogy remake. It's not that I don't like rethinking analogies...I really do. But this remake has some serious problems to me. 

For one it reduces the foolishness of the 5 virgins by remaking the wise virgins as self-righteousness. In short it reduces judgment on one group by casting judgment on another. I don't think that's a healthy impulse in our culture. I also keep thinking of this time that I had a roommate who was deeply in spiritual and emotional need to the point of being codependent in others. I would help her some,  but only to the degree that I had extra space in me to take on her pains. she found my boundaries at first as being mean. Later she realized the wisdom of having boundaries...that they allow you to live and thrive. And that me showing her the better way of engaging with people gave her permission and a template for how to do the same. I picture this when I here this idea of the "wise" just being self-righteous. It's a wisdom we don't feel comfortable with so we judge it rather than explore our discomfort.  

 

To me I'd want to understand what does it mean to be foolish and what does it mean to be prepared. Foolish to me means less of making a mistake or minor error, but lack solid judgment or being a little dumb on how you make a decision. So for example it would be foolish of me to take my phone that I'll need on a 4 day trip without a charging cable. I think the decision the foolish virgins made would have been clear to the culture to be a poor idea. It would need to be in order for it to make sense. Which would mean being prepared doesn't necessarily mean being ready for every potential circumstance, but having the basics of what is needed in order to engage with God/Zion.  I think in our culture we suck at prioritizing, so everything becomes equally "essential," leading us to feel overwhelmed with the idea of being prepared. it would mean if we forget one small thing we're screwed. I personally don't see that when I read this parable. 

I like also rain's idea of we v me orientation when reading. Instead of focusing on an I need to be prepared, it's more of a communal necessity we're missing. It's understanding the custom of Zion. I think of it like culture. If I go to a completely foreign land and want to participate in a custom of there's I will stick our like a sore thumb as I will not know the order to what's to be done. A person would rightly be able to say, I'm not known because it's obvious I'm not really prepared to engage in their custom without making a fool of myself or bringing difficulty to the group experience. Instead of having the whole be able to fix the attention and experience on the purpose of the event, the event would become about getting me up to snuff enough to engage with each custom. It would turn the custom into an I experience instead of a we one in essence. If I were of the culture and purposely ignored a fundamental aspect of the custom, then I would be purposely choosing to put myself out of step with the community. The bridegroom is the representative of the whole, so to say "I don't know you" is recognizing the misplacement in the whole, not just with the bridegroom. 

 

 

I believe in a loving Jesus. But I've noticed there's a fine line between gentleness/empathy/care and enabling/permissiveness in our culture. I personally feel these sort of parables often leave people uncomfortable because it pushes that particular cultural button. 

 

With luv, 

BD 

 

 

[MustardSeed]

22 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I'll be honest, I don't really like the analogy remake. It's not that I don't like rethinking analogies...I really do. But this remake has some serious problems to me. 

For one it reduces the foolishness of the 5 virgins by remaking the wise virgins as self-righteousness. In short it reduces judgment on one group by casting judgment on another. I don't think that's a healthy impulse in our culture. I also keep thinking of this time that I had a roommate who was deeply in spiritual and emotional need to the point of being codependent in others. I would help her some,  but only to the degree that I had extra space in me to take on her pains. she found my boundaries at first as being mean. Later she realized the wisdom of having boundaries...that they allow you to live and thrive. And that me showing her the better way of engaging with people gave her permission and a template for how to do the same. I picture this when I here this idea of the "wise" just being self-righteous. It's a wisdom we don't feel comfortable with so we judge it rather than explore our discomfort.  

 

To me I'd want to understand what does it mean to be foolish and what does it mean to be prepared. Foolish to me means less of making a mistake or minor error, but lack solid judgment or being a little dumb on how you make a decision. So for example it would be foolish of me to take my phone that I'll need on a 4 day trip without a charging cable. I think the decision the foolish virgins made would have been clear to the culture to be a poor idea. It would need to be in order for it to make sense. Which would mean being prepared doesn't necessarily mean being ready for every potential circumstance, but having the basics of what is needed in order to engage with God/Zion.  I think in our culture we suck at prioritizing, so everything becomes equally "essential," leading us to feel overwhelmed with the idea of being prepared. it would mean if we forget one small thing we're screwed. I personally don't see that when I read this parable. 

I like also rain's idea of we v me orientation when reading. Instead of focusing on an I need to be prepared, it's more of a communal necessity we're missing. It's understanding the custom of Zion. I think of it like culture. If I go to a completely foreign land and want to participate in a custom of there's I will stick our like a sore thumb as I will not know the order to what's to be done. A person would rightly be able to say, I'm not known because it's obvious I'm not really prepared to engage in their custom without making a fool of myself or bringing difficulty to the group experience. Instead of having the whole be able to fix the attention and experience on the purpose of the event, the event would become about getting me up to snuff enough to engage with each custom. It would turn the custom into an I experience instead of a we one in essence. If I were of the culture and purposely ignored a fundamental aspect of the custom, then I would be purposely choosing to put myself out of step with the community. The bridegroom is the representative of the whole, so to say "I don't know you" is recognizing the misplacement in the whole, not just with the bridegroom. 

 

 

I believe in a loving Jesus. But I've noticed there's a fine line between gentleness/empathy/care and enabling/permissiveness in our culture. I personally feel these sort of parables often leave people uncomfortable because it pushes that particular cultural button. 

 

With luv, 

BD 

 

 

Thoughtful, thank you- 

“think in our culture we suck at prioritizing, so everything becomes equally "essential," leading us to feel overwhelmed with the idea of being prepared. it would mean if we forget one small thing we're screwed. I personally don't see that when I read this parable.”

I think I always have felt that way.  As a perfectionist I have a deep need to see the savior as safe to feel motivated to keep trying.  I identify too much with the fools 😕

 

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I'll be honest, I don't really like the analogy remake. It's not that I don't like rethinking analogies...I really do. But this remake has some serious problems to me. 

For one it reduces the foolishness of the 5 virgins by remaking the wise virgins as self-righteousness. In short it reduces judgment on one group by casting judgment on another. I don't think that's a healthy impulse in our culture. I also keep thinking of this time that I had a roommate who was deeply in spiritual and emotional need to the point of being codependent in others. I would help her some,  but only to the degree that I had extra space in me to take on her pains. she found my boundaries at first as being mean. Later she realized the wisdom of having boundaries...that they allow you to live and thrive. And that me showing her the better way of engaging with people gave her permission and a template for how to do the same. I picture this when I here this idea of the "wise" just being self-righteous. It's a wisdom we don't feel comfortable with so we judge it rather than explore our discomfort.  

 

To me I'd want to understand what does it mean to be foolish and what does it mean to be prepared. Foolish to me means less of making a mistake or minor error, but lack solid judgment or being a little dumb on how you make a decision. So for example it would be foolish of me to take my phone that I'll need on a 4 day trip without a charging cable. I think the decision the foolish virgins made would have been clear to the culture to be a poor idea. It would need to be in order for it to make sense. Which would mean being prepared doesn't necessarily mean being ready for every potential circumstance, but having the basics of what is needed in order to engage with God/Zion.  I think in our culture we suck at prioritizing, so everything becomes equally "essential," leading us to feel overwhelmed with the idea of being prepared. it would mean if we forget one small thing we're screwed. I personally don't see that when I read this parable. 

I like also rain's idea of we v me orientation when reading. Instead of focusing on an I need to be prepared, it's more of a communal necessity we're missing. It's understanding the custom of Zion. I think of it like culture. If I go to a completely foreign land and want to participate in a custom of there's I will stick our like a sore thumb as I will not know the order to what's to be done. A person would rightly be able to say, I'm not known because it's obvious I'm not really prepared to engage in their custom without making a fool of myself or bringing difficulty to the group experience. Instead of having the whole be able to fix the attention and experience on the purpose of the event, the event would become about getting me up to snuff enough to engage with each custom. It would turn the custom into an I experience instead of a we one in essence. If I were of the culture and purposely ignored a fundamental aspect of the custom, then I would be purposely choosing to put myself out of step with the community. The bridegroom is the representative of the whole, so to say "I don't know you" is recognizing the misplacement in the whole, not just with the bridegroom. 

 

 

I believe in a loving Jesus. But I've noticed there's a fine line between gentleness/empathy/care and enabling/permissiveness in our culture. I personally feel these sort of parables often leave people uncomfortable because it pushes that particular cultural button. 

 

With luv, 

BD 

 

 

Thanks for sharing that. 

[Kenngo1969]

5 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

...  I identify too much with the fools 

😕

 

Don't we all??!!!   

[mfbukowski]

On 5/26/2023 at 2:32 PM, MustardSeed said:

But need it be?  This parable gives me (and others) so much anxiety.  
I much prefer this other interpretation.  Can scripture mean something different than the pat interpretation we have been fed over and over in Sunday school? 

Of course! We are to get our own testimonies of every principle.

No church is 100% infallible - that would eliminate agency and encourage blind obedience 

[mfbukowski]

On 5/26/2023 at 6:01 PM, MorningStar said:

Also, the way oil lamps are shaped, you can’t pour oil from one lamp into another lamp. 

So how are you supposed to fill them?  Who would design anything like that?  . Just carry a filler thingy?

[Saint Bonaventure]

I'll just put this forward for consideration....

For me, it's important that the 5 wise virgins are described as "wise" and are not "right" or "self-righteous." I'm not the first person to observe this, but the wisdom of accepting Christ's righteousness, which is not earned, but which is accepted through grace, is presented as oil in the lamps, as oil that will sustain until the arrival of the bridegroom.

Viewed in this light, the bridegroom's delay is not a means to determine who is righteous and who is not. Rather, it is an opportunity for the foolish virgins to accept Christ's righteousness, to accept Christ's oil.

 

[MorningStar]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

So how are you supposed to fill them?  Who would design anything like that?  . Just carry a filler thingy?

With a funnel. 🤣