10 virgins- why were they foolish?

[Rain]

9 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

I don't understand why there would be an issue with continually referring to the parable? And the interpretation that we are so 'attached to' should be that we should be about the business of building our trust in the Lord and gaining our own understanding/appreciation of that dynamic rather than relying inordinately on another's understanding/appreciation. Why is that now in need of a 'shake up'?

I have no problem with looking for new ways of understanding parables. But why the energy behind thinking differently of this one?

For some it might because the interpretation they have hasn't built trust in the Lord for them so they are trying to get understanding from others that may help them build that trust.

[smac97]

On 5/26/2023 at 12:40 PM, MustardSeed said:

I recently heard it suggested that we re- examine our assessment of the 5 “foolish” virgins.  Rather than teach and believe that they are foolish because they come unprepared, instead to believe that they are foolish, because they believed the fear mongering of the self righteous other five.

Could you elaborate on the "fear mongering" and "self righteous" claims here?

On 5/26/2023 at 12:40 PM, MustardSeed said:

The so-called foolish virgins were there. They had oil in their lamp. They stayed overnight. They were doing all of the same things the others were doing, the only difference is that they did not have extra oil.

Kind of a big difference, that.

On 5/26/2023 at 12:40 PM, MustardSeed said:

Had they trusted in the bride groom he would most likely have shared his light with them, because their hearts were in the right place.  

Perhaps not.  Consider this treatment by Pres. Kimball:

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Spencer W. Kimball gave an LDS perspective on the difference between the wise and the foolish virgins, and why they could not share the oil: "This was not selfishness or unkindness. The kind of oil that is needed to illuminate the way and light up the darkness is not shareable. How can one share obedience to the principle of tithing; a mind at peace from righteous living; an accumulation of knowledge? How can one share faith or testimony? How can one share attitudes or chastity.... Each must obtain that kind of oil for himself."

Sound counsel, I think.

On 5/26/2023 at 12:40 PM, MustardSeed said:

This would change the moral of the story to be, rather than scarcity and panic around am I good enough, to

“show up, do the work, and trust God to do the rest”. 

Do you think there’s any problem with, what is in my opinion, a more gentle version of Jesus? 

Jesus was gentle mostly, but he was not entirely so.  

Christ did not upend the moneychangers' tables in the temple because it was popular.  He did so because it was right.  Christ did not preach the "Bread of Life" sermon in John 6 (which caused many to "murmur" against him) because it was popular.  He did so because it was right.

Christ preached a gospel that was not going to be popular in the minds of an increasingly wicked world.  He knew that.  But He preached it anyway.  I think He knew beforehand that His message would alienate many people, including some otherwise good and decent people.  But He preached anyway.  I think He did so because those who were ready for His message needed to hear it, and needed to be gathered out of the World.  

Perhaps this is why He said: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."  Perhaps this is why He also said (several times, actually) : "Behold, I am God; give heed unto my word, which is quick and powerful, sharper than a two-edged sword, to the dividing asunder of both joints and marrow; therefore give heed unto my words."  Christ also said: "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."  Christ also said "For if ye will not abide in my covenant ye are not worthy of me."  

My dad and I were talking about these things a while back, some of which have been described as the "dark sayings of Jesus."  My dad noted that some people focus on the "sweetness and light" sayings of the Savior, which is probably fine - unless that focus is exclusionary.  Christ had warnings for us, after all.  Such as this: "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you."  And this: "The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil."   And this: "Therefore, fear not, little flock; do good; let earth and hell combine against you, for if ye are built upon my rock, they cannot prevail."   And this: "For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory."

I am reminded of Aslan from The Chronicles of Narnia by C.S. Lewis, in which he (Aslan) is repeatedly described as "not a tame lion."  I think Lewis used this description to emphasize the wild and untamed nature of Aslan's character.  Aslan, an allegorical representation of Jesus Christ, is a majestic and powerful lion who is revered as the creator and ruler of the magical land of Narnia. He embodies a divine and awe-inspiring presence. By stating that Aslan is "not a tame lion," Lewis conveyed that Aslan is not someone to be controlled or manipulated by humans. He is a force of nature, embodying both immense power and a deep sense of goodness. Aslan operates according to his own will and purposes, and his actions are often beyond human understanding.

Aslan was both comforting and awe-inspiring.  "Not a tame lion" carries an element of unpredictability, and even danger. It suggests that while Jesus is loving and compassionate, he cannot be confined to our limited understanding or bent to our desires. He is a figure to be respected and revered, not someone we can easily mold or manipulate to fit our own preferences or agendas. 

Perhaps we ought to approach the Savior's parables in a somewhat similar way.  Some of them are not intended to be comforting or gentle.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

[smac97]

On 5/26/2023 at 12:54 PM, Tacenda said:

I never liked this parable. I remember a Relief Society lesson on it and women dressed in the attire they might have worn and going room to room. 

Could you elaborate?  What is it about this parable you find problematic?

On 5/26/2023 at 12:54 PM, Tacenda said:

Just dislike it so much, and "virgins" really?

The original Greek word, parthenos:

Quote

a virgin

1. a marriageable maiden
2. a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a man
3. one's marriageable daughter

Various translations use "virgins" or "bridesmaids," and less commonly "young women" or "maidens."

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

On 5/26/2023 at 3:32 PM, MustardSeed said:

Quote

But then I thought, they were wise because they watched (anticipated potential problems), not knowing the exact time of arrival, and this is the concluding lesson of the parable.

But need it be?  This parable gives me (and others) so much anxiety.  

Could you elaborate?  What is it about the parable you find problematic?

On 5/26/2023 at 3:32 PM, MustardSeed said:

I much prefer this other interpretation.  Can scripture mean something different than the pat interpretation we have been fed over and over in Sunday school? 

I think we can vary a bit when interpreting scripture as to meaning and application, but not to the extent we "wrest" them (Alma 13:20, Alma 41:1, D&C 10:63).

Sometimes there are messages that we need to hear, even if they are not what we want to hear.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

On 5/26/2023 at 5:35 PM, MustardSeed said:

Sounds like a book I would like to read. I have a long had a problematic relationship with my scriptures. 

I can relate to this.  I have had some difficulty with some aspects of the Restored Gospel (including some parts of the scriptures).

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

On 5/26/2023 at 8:39 PM, MustardSeed said:

I have an unpopular opinion- I think we can be deeply impacted by someone else’s testimony. I think we can live on parents testimony to a certain degree.  Or on Nephis.  Or on Joseph’s. But I of course understand the sentiment. 

I think that's quite apt.  See, e.g., D&C 46:

Quote

10 And again, verily I say unto you, I would that ye should always remember, and always retain in your minds what those gifts are, that are given unto the church.
11 For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God.
12 To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.
13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.
14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

Thanks,

-Smac

[MustardSeed]

59 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Could you elaborate?  What is it about the parable you find problematic?

I mentioned previously that I am a perfectionist. This parable pokes at my anxiety with the idea that in comparison with others, I fall short. Yes, I know we are not “supposed to” compare ourselves to others. But in my opinion, in a religion where excellence and achievement is lauded, it is quite natural for someone like me with natural anxieties to compare myself to those who seem to have nailed the program.  
No one looks at me an assumes I have nailed it.  I have accepted my fate as less then and sometimes that hurts. 

This parable pokes at my insecurities.  This alternative interpretation is soothing to my achy soul. 

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I think that's quite apt.  See, e.g., D&C 46:

Thanks,

-Smac

Thank you. 

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Sometimes there are messages that we need to hear, even if they are not what we want to hear.

For me there is plenty of scripture and lecture to remind me of my failures. 

[Vanguard]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I mentioned previously that I am a perfectionist. This parable pokes at my anxiety with the idea that in comparison with others, I fall short. Yes, I know we are not “supposed to” compare ourselves to others. But in my opinion, in a religion where excellence and achievement is lauded, it is quite natural for someone like me with natural anxieties to compare myself to those who seem to have nailed the program.  
No one looks at me an assumes I have nailed it.  I have accepted my fate as less then and sometimes that hurts. 

This parable pokes at my insecurities.  This alternative interpretation is soothing to my achy soul. 

On this point, I hear you. Anxieties abound within my own family unit (active and no longer active) for some of these same reasons and I can understand the experience. My only caution would be that we not unnecessarily distort (I am not accusing of this) parables for the sole purpose of not feeling bad (and again, I am not accusing you of doing this) such that we have lost the meaning behind the parable. Now understandably, there is no ultimate authoritative version of what is the 'right' meaning behind any parable though I think there is still a risk of unnecessary distortion.

As a loosely related example, I have an active family member who too often characterizes exchanges with other active members in a negative light and against the other active members. I say this because on some of these occasions I am also present. I challenge this family member (hopefully in an appropriate way) to reconsider their characterization. I do not see it serving enough good to - what I believe - mischaracterize a situation so that this family member in question can feel better about themselves though at the expense of what I consider to be a much more judicious rendering. I believe it would be better for this family member to emotionally process their experience in a safe environment with the hopes of recreating a new narrative about themselves that does not require them to throw another 'under the bus' as it were.

Again, I am not suggesting you are doing this with the parable though I think we all run the risk of falling prey to doing this very thing if we are not vigilant.    

Edited May 31, 2023 by Vanguard

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

think we all run the risk of falling prey to doing this very thing

Thank you for the good reminder. 

[Vanguard]

17 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Thank you for the good reminder. 

Conversely, members should be allowed to reinterpret the parables to find something that resonates for them and contributes to their ultimate growth and progress toward the Savior. : )

[Calm]

3 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

No one looks at me an assumes I have nailed it.

I suspect most who do not take great pains to attempt to hide their weaknesses from others feel the same way from the way I hear people describe themselves, though for some it is more an ever present thought and for others an occasional one.  And those who do hide them successfully or at least think they do have a worst set of hang ups they should be dealing with imo…

Quote

 

 I have accepted my fate as less then and sometimes that hurts. 

Is your “less than” more about being less than others…because I have a lot to say about that, not being one prone to idolize humanity generally or individually and you have impressed me the more I learn about you…or is it more about being less than the person you believe you could be?  That is something I have a very hard time with no matter how often I tell myself my inner limitations are real and if God wanted me to be out there doing, he would have given me the support system and the body to do it.  I think it’s a pit that is easy for church members to fall into due to our church teaching ideals so much.  It also seems pretty typical in our greater culture.  So many slogans out there about pushing yourself to breakthrough your limits as if they are all just illusions. The constant murmur in the back of my head (and I am guessing in lots of others’ minds) is I obviously could be doing more in that one thing (maybe work on it instead of visiting the board so much?), so why aren’t I? The easy answer is I must be not willing to be uncomfortable, can’t be because I am being wise about spreading my resources out, recharging, and trying to ensure I am saving a little in reserve for crises so nothing of necessity falls through the cracks….or at least mostly wise or most accurate, as wise as I can be.

We aren’t taught to look at ourselves as having limited inner resources as well as external ones, at least not the nonbiological ones and most aren’t taught how to judge our biology that well either…we are too busy learning to do things and then trying to do them to pay attention to our most important tools unless they force our attention.  Too many push themselves till they drop, get up and go again and end up burning out.  No pain, no gain after all.  If something is painful, I must be doing it well!  Screwed up my feet big time due to that little slogan.  That pain meant my feet were getting stronger…till it didn’t go away.  Never occurred to me the structure wasn’t built for it (check your second toe, if it’s longer than your big toe, your weight may not be spreading out on the foot as it should be; there’s exercises and orthotics to help though).

While it is easy to check the clock and our car’s gas tank (to figure out how far it can go before it becomes a chunk of useless metal) and therefore make wise choices and compromises of which errands we will accomplish that day, including perhaps not driving to the exceptional grocery, bakery, and butcher shops we really want to go to in order to get the best quality of food for the best price and instead choosing to settle for paying a bit more for a bit less at our local market so that we can also fit in the trip to the dentist and picking our kids up at school to take them to music lessons with time to grab the present your 9 year old wants to give her best friend at her birthday party this weekend, we have no concrete and sure way to judge our inner available physical, mental, and emotional fuels and how much each activity will cost us in those areas.  What really sucks is if we actually manage to do it right, we end up feeling like there is something left in our tank, something to celebrate with our cars as that means we can get to the gas station for fueling for the next set of errands.  However, we can’t know for sure how much inner energy is actually left—maybe it is almost fumes, maybe we could keep going for hours more—for many of us we too easily start into the second guessing of our choices even if we have pretty much trained ourselves to judge the limits pretty well.  So easy to slip into bad habits of telling ourselves we aren’t doing enough, maybe we are really just lazy, maybe we are letting our fears dictate our choices and it’s not being prudent at all, but being wimpy etc. etc….because after all, maybe all that negative talk is reality and we have been letting ourselves off with excuses.  The only way to know for a certainty how much we can do is to do too much.  

Why did God make us that way?

Back to the topic sort of…

1 Nephi 3:7 cuts into any reassurance for me when read the usual way I hear in Church…if I am not finding a way to do what needs to be done, that’s on me, I am failing because I am not committed enough (my dad’s motto was you can do anything you are really committed to).  But maybe that scripture isn’t meant to be generalized to every good thing in life, but is instead for unusual circumstances.  Perhaps it’s better wisdom to consider if I am not finding a way that works for me, maybe God hasn’t given me that commandment.  I am not talking about picking and choosing what commandments to follow though there is a season and a time and all that, I am talking about examining what we are really being commanded to do and by whom.  Maybe it isn’t God handing out a decree that must be done if we want to be righteous, maybe it is us turning our unrealistic goals into commandments in our heads.  Maybe all those bells and whistles aren’t needed to fulfill that teaching calling for the youth, maybe they don’t need to be that interested in the activities and instead need to know that you are interested in them as individuals.  

Taking scripture and flipping it around and seeing if it makes more sense a new way can be a useful tool to open ourselves up to the Spirit, imo.  It’s habitual readings imo that may lead us to always seeing the same things, to building hedges when what God wants us to do is climb that beautiful unfenced green hill to see new vistas.  And he may even want us to take our time and enjoy the climb to the top rather than keeping our eyes solely on the path, trying to break speed records to get there, gritting our teeth and grunting the whole way.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Calm

[Tacenda]

5 hours ago, Vanguard said:

I don't understand why there would be an issue with continually referring to the parable? And the interpretation that we are so 'attached to' should be that we should be about the business of building our trust in the Lord and gaining our own understanding/appreciation of that dynamic rather than relying inordinately on another's understanding/appreciation. Why is that now in need of a 'shake up'?

I have no problem with looking for new ways of understanding parables. But why the energy behind thinking differently of this one?

You didn't quote me, my posts don't usually look this good, haha. 

[Vanguard]

19 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

You didn't quote me, my posts don't usually look this good, haha. 

My bad - I'm sorry. You were quoting an excerpt from the clip.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

Conversely, members should be allowed to reinterpret the parables to find something that resonates for them and contributes to their ultimate growth and progress toward the Savior. : )

Though I don't think there is any way to legitimize the villainization of the "wise" virgins in the interpretation presented in the OP (I also don't think Jesus would have presented them as wise if He was teaching that they were self righteous), you said what I was thinking when I said that I thought MS's embracing of it was valid earlier in the thread.

If something is a stumbling block between us and the Savior, and if we are sincere in our desire to follow Him, then I think it can be really imperative to find a new way to look at it.  Sacrificing our relationship with Him for an interpretation of a parable or teaching doesn't make a lot of sense to me. 

Either our new interpretation will work just fine or, if it's a little wonky and missing the mark, the Savior will bring us around in a way that we can benefit from.  It's having a good and sincere relationship with Him that is the key, in my opinion.  

[Vanguard]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

If something is a stumbling block between us and the Savior, and if we are sincere in our desire to follow Him, then I think it can be really imperative to find a new way to look at it.  Sacrificing our relationship with Him for an interpretation of a parable or teaching doesn't make a lot of sense to me. 

Either our new interpretation will work just fine or, if it's a little wonky and missing the mark, the Savior will bring us around in a way that we can benefit from.  It's having a good and sincere relationship with Him that is the key, in my opinion. 

Total agreement. I would only add that sometimes the Savior will allow others to help 'bring us around' in a way that we can benefit from. That is the potential benefit to a forum like this. 

Edited June 1, 2023 by Vanguard

[MustardSeed]

On 5/31/2023 at 3:56 PM, Calm said:

It’s habitual readings imo that may lead us to always seeing the same things,

So much of my LDS church experience is habitual.  It’s not until I start asking questions that I really start to wake up.

[bluebell]

On 5/31/2023 at 7:48 PM, Vanguard said:

Total agreement. I would only add that sometimes the Savior will allow others to help 'bring us around' in a way that we can benefit from. That is the potential benefit to a forum like this. 

Agreed.

By saying that the Savior would take care of it, I wasn’t so much saying He would do it personally. Only meaning that, through whatever multiple means, He will direct our paths to Him (as long as we are direct-able and are sincerely trying to follow Him). 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

So much of my LDS church experience is habitual.  It’s not until I start asking questions that I really start to wake up.

Living on autopilot is a very useful skill because it saves a lot of mental and emotional energy and our mental energy is not an inexhaustible resource (we need to sleep for more than just our muscles), but we can’t respond well or at all to new information and experiences if that is our only mode.