JAHS Posted March 20, 2023 Posted March 20, 2023 Debate erupts as LGBTQ+ supporters contest SUU choice of church official as commencement speaker "Southern Utah University was set to start hosting "listening sessions" Monday in response to pushback from supporters of the LGBTQ+ community against the school's choice of Elder Jeffery R. Holland, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as the keynote speaker for the 2023 commencement ceremonies. Intense opposition to the announcement raged online over the weekend, with more than 15,000 people signing an online petition calling for the school to remove Holland. Authors of the petition said Holland "has openly opposed LGBTQ+ individuals," including in a controversial 2021 speech at Brigham Young University in which Holland called on faculty and staff there to take up metaphorical "muskets" to defend the church's stance that marriage should only be between a man and a woman. "Including Holland in the Commencement proceedings of SUU would fail to serve the student body, especially those in the LGBTQ+ community and students who do not follow the religious teachings of the LDS church," reads the petition. Elder Jeffery R. Holland, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. A separate petition to keep Holland on as speaker had a little more than 700 signatures as of early Monday. University officials announced Holland as the keynote speaker on Thursday, saying his local connections as a St. George native matched up well with the school's 125th anniversary this year, making him the ideal speaker for the April 28 commencement ceremonies." ------------------------------------------ I am willing to bet that in his speech he will not include anything related specifically to the Church, but perhaps only general Christian doctrines if even that. I very much doubt that this petition will be successful. 1
bluebell Posted March 20, 2023 Posted March 20, 2023 14 minutes ago, JAHS said: Debate erupts as LGBTQ+ supporters contest SUU choice of church official as commencement speaker "Southern Utah University was set to start hosting "listening sessions" Monday in response to pushback from supporters of the LGBTQ+ community against the school's choice of Elder Jeffery R. Holland, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as the keynote speaker for the 2023 commencement ceremonies. Intense opposition to the announcement raged online over the weekend, with more than 15,000 people signing an online petition calling for the school to remove Holland. Authors of the petition said Holland "has openly opposed LGBTQ+ individuals," including in a controversial 2021 speech at Brigham Young University in which Holland called on faculty and staff there to take up metaphorical "muskets" to defend the church's stance that marriage should only be between a man and a woman. "Including Holland in the Commencement proceedings of SUU would fail to serve the student body, especially those in the LGBTQ+ community and students who do not follow the religious teachings of the LDS church," reads the petition. Elder Jeffery R. Holland, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. A separate petition to keep Holland on as speaker had a little more than 700 signatures as of early Monday. University officials announced Holland as the keynote speaker on Thursday, saying his local connections as a St. George native matched up well with the school's 125th anniversary this year, making him the ideal speaker for the April 28 commencement ceremonies." ------------------------------------------ I am willing to bet that in his speech he will not include anything related specifically to the Church, but perhaps only general Christian doctrines if even that. I very much doubt that this petition will be successful. I would bet that your bet would be right, but for a lot of people that doesn’t matter. Someone could say the wisest and most profound things—relevant to everyone in attendance—and for many (who support SSM) it would be completely dismissible if that person did not do the same.
Calm Posted March 20, 2023 Posted March 20, 2023 19 minutes ago, JAHS said: I am willing to bet that in his speech he will not include anything related specifically to the Church, but perhaps only general Christian doctrines if even that. I very much doubt that this petition will be successful. What does he typically do in nonChurch settings?
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted March 21, 2023 Posted March 21, 2023 18 hours ago, JAHS said: I am willing to bet that in his speech he will not include anything related specifically to the Church, but perhaps only general Christian doctrines if even that. I very much doubt that this petition will be successful. Anyone who knows this great speaker, knows that he will not show up with the intent to inflict the least amount of harm to anyone. He is an honorable man, also very empathetic (hope the spelling is correct) of those too whom he speaks. He knows full well, as do all, that he is not there to give a General Conference address. I am frightened that one day our children, and grandchildren, will (or might) one day live in an America, where differing opinions will never be heard. A time when education will no longer be the objective, but indoctrination. I don’t speak as a Prophet on this matter, but as an observer for the last 66 years. Currently, most students bodies exist to go back decades, in search of anything they care find, that will disqualify anyone. Young people by nature of fear they are unheard on so many things, and now they are drunk on this newfound power. Even to see if their own champion Professors have ever said anything that might be misunderstood. We live in an age when adults are pouring over everything they have ever written, to be electronically scrubbed from existence. Even “tenured Professors, and Teachers”, are leaving High Schools, and Universities, because of the onslaught they face from many student bodies. In short, let him speak, assuming he would want to know. Enough for now… 4
Duncan Posted March 21, 2023 Posted March 21, 2023 21 hours ago, Calm said: What does he typically do in nonChurch settings? I know someone who lives down the street from the Hollands and apparently they get a lot of Amazon stuff! 1
Calm Posted March 21, 2023 Posted March 21, 2023 33 minutes ago, Duncan said: I know someone who lives down the street from the Hollands and apparently they get a lot of Amazon stuff! Lol, so do I. Especially since Lego got on board. Amazon is a blessing and a curse for those who don’t have time or who can’t handle cars or stores that well. Not saving as much money as I was before I picked up the habit, but my house is in much better shape. But I meant what kind of speeches does he give when not in a Church owned venue. 2
The Nehor Posted March 21, 2023 Posted March 21, 2023 Oh, an online petition? That is definitely gonna work. Better back it up with a STERNLY WORDED letter to make sure you get maximum impact. 3
california boy Posted March 24, 2023 Posted March 24, 2023 On 3/20/2023 at 1:10 PM, JAHS said: I am willing to bet that in his speech he will not include anything related specifically to the Church, but perhaps only general Christian doctrines if even that. I very much doubt that this petition will be successful. The petition is not about what he might say, but what he represents. To many, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the most anti LGBT religion in America and has done thing and said things that they won't forget. He is a leader in that Church. And his Musket speech only makes the choice to have him speak that much less sensitive. The real question for me is, why would the school choose such a speaker that is so polarizing? What was the criteria for deciding he should speak as a commencement speaker that should consider the views of all of the students? What does Elder Holland have to say to all of the students that over ride what he represents to so many of those students? I assume most of you are aware of the recent PEW report on how the Church is viewed by the majority outside Mormonism. It is pretty clear not everyone thinks everything the Church does is wonderful and uplifting. Maybe it is not so much about sensoring as appropriateness. 1
CV75 Posted March 24, 2023 Posted March 24, 2023 On 3/20/2023 at 4:10 PM, JAHS said: Debate erupts as LGBTQ+ supporters contest SUU choice of church official as commencement speaker "Southern Utah University was set to start hosting "listening sessions" Monday in response to pushback from supporters of the LGBTQ+ community against the school's choice of Elder Jeffery R. Holland, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as the keynote speaker for the 2023 commencement ceremonies. Intense opposition to the announcement raged online over the weekend, with more than 15,000 people signing an online petition calling for the school to remove Holland. Authors of the petition said Holland "has openly opposed LGBTQ+ individuals," including in a controversial 2021 speech at Brigham Young University in which Holland called on faculty and staff there to take up metaphorical "muskets" to defend the church's stance that marriage should only be between a man and a woman. "Including Holland in the Commencement proceedings of SUU would fail to serve the student body, especially those in the LGBTQ+ community and students who do not follow the religious teachings of the LDS church," reads the petition. Elder Jeffery R. Holland, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. A separate petition to keep Holland on as speaker had a little more than 700 signatures as of early Monday. University officials announced Holland as the keynote speaker on Thursday, saying his local connections as a St. George native matched up well with the school's 125th anniversary this year, making him the ideal speaker for the April 28 commencement ceremonies." ------------------------------------------ I am willing to bet that in his speech he will not include anything related specifically to the Church, but perhaps only general Christian doctrines if even that. I very much doubt that this petition will be successful. RE: metaphorical muskets aimed at arguments antithetical to the doctrine and covenants of our Church: "And while I have focused on this same-sex topic this morning more than I would have liked, I pray you will see it as emblematic of a lot of issues our students, our communities, and our Church face in this complex, contemporary world of ours." The Second Half of the Second Century of Brigham Young University | BYU Speeches
CV75 Posted March 24, 2023 Posted March 24, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, california boy said: The petition is not about what he might say, but what he represents. To many, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the most anti LGBT religion in America and has done thing and said things that they won't forget. He is a leader in that Church. And his Musket speech only makes the choice to have him speak that much less sensitive. The real question for me is, why would the school choose such a speaker that is so polarizing? What was the criteria for deciding he should speak as a commencement speaker that should consider the views of all of the students? What does Elder Holland have to say to all of the students that over ride what he represents to so many of those students? I assume most of you are aware of the recent PEW report on how the Church is viewed by the majority outside Mormonism. It is pretty clear not everyone thinks everything the Church does is wonderful and uplifting. Maybe it is not so much about sensoring as appropriateness. I think it would be more effective for those concerned to let him speak and then discuss content afterwards and hold up equally articulate proponents expressing any opposing view. This is the interest the public square serves, and SUU is a public university, so it is in its best interests to encourage public dialog. Edited March 24, 2023 by CV75 1
california boy Posted March 24, 2023 Posted March 24, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, CV75 said: I think it would be more effective for those concerned to let him speak and then discuss content afterwards and hold up equally articulate proponents expressing any opposing view. This is the interest the public square serves, and SUU is a public university, so it is in its best interests to encourage public dialog. He could offer to do that whether he is the commencement speaker or not. Do you think he will? Sometimes I don't think Church leaders or Church members realize how big of divide the Church has done by their actions. When I tell people I used to be Mormon, the earful that I get is quite different than when I was a member and told them I was Mormon. People often won't say how they really feel because they don't want to offend you personally. Yet as the Pew poll shows, the data is there. Edited March 24, 2023 by california boy
carbon dioxide Posted March 24, 2023 Posted March 24, 2023 First step of tolerance is to tolerate those whom one believes is not tolerant. Some of the students apparently don't get that. Holland however should excuse himself from speaking. No need to create contention. 1
JAHS Posted March 24, 2023 Author Posted March 24, 2023 4 hours ago, california boy said: The petition is not about what he might say, but what he represents. To many, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the most anti LGBT religion in America and has done thing and said things that they won't forget. He is a leader in that Church. And his Musket speech only makes the choice to have him speak that much less sensitive. The real question for me is, why would the school choose such a speaker that is so polarizing? What was the criteria for deciding he should speak as a commencement speaker that should consider the views of all of the students? What does Elder Holland have to say to all of the students that over ride what he represents to so many of those students? I assume most of you are aware of the recent PEW report on how the Church is viewed by the majority outside Mormonism. It is pretty clear not everyone thinks everything the Church does is wonderful and uplifting. Maybe it is not so much about sensoring as appropriateness. I think there were other reasons that outweighed the possibility that some students might be offended. He is a native of the St George area, he has been a university president; has been very dedicated to the education system; understands and how important it is to obtain a good education; and understands what students have to go through while they obtain that education. He also served as president of the American Association of Presidents of Independent Colleges and Universities and was a board member of the National Association of Independent Colleges and Universities. Sounds like he is well qualified for what he has been asked to do. Probably a bad analogy but, my respect for Will Smith dropped because of the slap heard round the world, but that doesn't mean I no longer respect him as a great actor or don't still enjoy his movies. 2
california boy Posted March 24, 2023 Posted March 24, 2023 1 hour ago, JAHS said: I think there were other reasons that outweighed the possibility that some students might be offended. He is a native of the St George area, he has been a university president; has been very dedicated to the education system; understands and how important it is to obtain a good education; and understands what students have to go through while they obtain that education. He also served as president of the American Association of Presidents of Independent Colleges and Universities and was a board member of the National Association of Independent Colleges and Universities. Sounds like he is well qualified for what he has been asked to do. Probably a bad analogy but, my respect for Will Smith dropped because of the slap heard round the world, but that doesn't mean I no longer respect him as a great actor or don't still enjoy his movies. I can see why you would think Elder Holland would qualify as a commencement speaker. Not sure how all of those that have been impacted by the actions of the Church against the LGBT community and specifically Elder Holland feel like they would want to sit through a talk by him. Sometimes previous qualifications don't gloss over everything about what he now represents and some of the comments he has personally made. Comments that you are probably perfectly ok with and think the whole uproar was over nothing, but others see his comments decidedly differently. I totally get that you are ok with Elder Holland speaking. Is it possible for you to see why others might not be ok with that choice? And if they are not ok with that choice, how do they get their voices heard? 1
california boy Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: First step of tolerance is to tolerate those whom one believes is not tolerant. Some of the students apparently don't get that. Holland however should excuse himself from speaking. No need to create contention. Isn't tolerance what this uproar is all about? Just how tolerant is the Church currently concerning LGBT students at BYU? How tolerant was the Church when it came to baptizing underaged children of gay couples? Not only do some students apparently don't get that, either does the Church. Hence two sides with totally different views of what is acceptable behavior. I get that those in the Church are bound by their membership to accept the direction the Church takes towards the LGBT community. What they are not good at is seeing the issue from another perspective and being tolerant to those views. Are they forced to skip their own college graduation because the school had decided to invite a polarizing speaker for their commencement? What is ironic is that Elder Holland was not very tolerant AT ALL by the speaker at BYU's commencement, HIS commencement, who stated he was gay. And just what did that speaker say that Elder Holland found so offensive that he went off on a triad against that student at HIS graduation? Did Elder Holland realize that the first step in tolerance is to tolerate those whom one believes is not tolerant? Honestly, I don't think the Church is on very solid ground here.
CV75 Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 4 hours ago, california boy said: He could offer to do that whether he is the commencement speaker or not. Do you think he will? Sometimes I don't think Church leaders or Church members realize how big of divide the Church has done by their actions. When I tell people I used to be Mormon, the earful that I get is quite different than when I was a member and told them I was Mormon. People often won't say how they really feel because they don't want to offend you personally. Yet as the Pew poll shows, the data is there. Who (Elder Holland?) could offer to do what (not speak at a public university?) -- that's the opposite of a key feature of our democratic republic. The Pew poll and how people react on a personal level have nothing to do with what I offered as a means for more effective public engagement, not less.
california boy Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 13 minutes ago, CV75 said: Who (Elder Holland?) could offer to do what (not speak at a public university?) -- that's the opposite of a key feature of our democratic republic. The Pew poll and how people react on a personal level have nothing to do with what I offered as a means for more effective public engagement, not less. Sorry I wasn't clear. You said Quote I think it would be more effective for those concerned to let him speak and then discuss content afterwards and hold up equally articulate proponents expressing any opposing view. I am saying that if Elder Holland wanted to have such a dialogue with those who oppose him speaking at the commencement, Elder Holland could still do that even if he is disinvited from speaking. The Pew poll definitely brings data on how people feel about the Church. Maybe that is something Church leaders should be more aware of and take opportunities like this to have dialogue with those people who have the strongest negative feelings towards the Church. Having dialogue with this group does not require a person to be the commencement speaker. Just the will for engaging in dialogue to better understand and explain the resentment towards the Church. I think Elder Holland and many members are clueless as to why so many found his remarks offensive. Maybe it is time to hear why so many reacted the way they did.
The Nehor Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 15 hours ago, CV75 said: I think it would be more effective for those concerned to let him speak and then discuss content afterwards and hold up equally articulate proponents expressing any opposing view. This is the interest the public square serves, and SUU is a public university, so it is in its best interests to encourage public dialog. That is not what commencement speeches are for. 13 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: First step of tolerance is to tolerate those whom one believes is not tolerant. Not really.
Calm Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 3 hours ago, The Nehor said: That is not what commencement speeches are for. What are commencement speeches for? Is there any reason both whatever your answer is and CV’s suggestion that SUU use the result as a springboard for discussion can’t coexist at times?
MustardSeed Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 (edited) The word tolerance should be defined, in life. It’s become so seemingly rejected by one side when really it shouldn’t be. IMO. I think tolerance means patience. I’m working on mine all the time. In some places I really fail. Edited March 25, 2023 by MustardSeed 1
CV75 Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 18 hours ago, california boy said: He could offer to do that whether he is the commencement speaker or not. Do you think he will? Sometimes I don't think Church leaders or Church members realize how big of divide the Church has done by their actions. When I tell people I used to be Mormon, the earful that I get is quite different than when I was a member and told them I was Mormon. People often won't say how they really feel because they don't want to offend you personally. Yet as the Pew poll shows, the data is there. I am saying the dialog in terms of the public exchange of ideas. If someone doesn’t like a speaker or what he represents, say something after he actually says something. Say something ongoing if it’s the idea represented by him or his Church. A petition like this one may well be an attempt at the latter, but it is a far cry from the intelligent articulation of the opposing view. And a far cry from the principles of public discourse a public university like SUU stands for.
CV75 Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 5 hours ago, The Nehor said: That is not what commencement speeches are for. Not really. RE: commencement speeches, EXACTLY! I'm talking about outside that venue (that is what I meant by "afterwards") and not so much a structured debate but the ongoing exchange of ideas (which is what I mean by "public square" and "public dialog") involving equally articulate opponents to the Church's or Holland's views. Especially since no one knows what is planning to say at the commencement, and especially since this is about what he represents irrespective of commencement. I'd like to see those pushing the petition actually say something thoughtful and compelling. Commencement speeches aren't for petitions, either. "The petition was made by man and not man for the petition. Except where the man won't think for himself."
california boy Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 36 minutes ago, CV75 said: I am saying the dialog in terms of the public exchange of ideas. If someone doesn’t like a speaker or what he represents, say something after he actually says something. Say something ongoing if it’s the idea represented by him or his Church. A petition like this one may well be an attempt at the latter, but it is a far cry from the intelligent articulation of the opposing view. And a far cry from the principles of public discourse a public university like SUU stands for. I am really unclear what you are saying here. The petition IS saying something after he actually said something. It is partially in response to a speech by Elder Holland that many feel was insensitive and inflammatory. I feel like I am missing your point. This is a commencement talk, often given by someone who should be admired for the work he has done that is positive and helpful to the students of that university. Evidently there are a lot of students that don't share that admiration nor what Elder Holland stands for. 1
JAHS Posted March 25, 2023 Author Posted March 25, 2023 16 hours ago, california boy said: I can see why you would think Elder Holland would qualify as a commencement speaker. Not sure how all of those that have been impacted by the actions of the Church against the LGBT community and specifically Elder Holland feel like they would want to sit through a talk by him. Sometimes previous qualifications don't gloss over everything about what he now represents and some of the comments he has personally made. Comments that you are probably perfectly ok with and think the whole uproar was over nothing, but others see his comments decidedly differently. I totally get that you are ok with Elder Holland speaking. Is it possible for you to see why others might not be ok with that choice? And if they are not ok with that choice, how do they get their voices heard? I agree that others might not be OK with it, which is obvious. I was mostly focusing on why the choice was made to have him speak at the commencement. There are a lot of people who will be there who would very much like to hear him speak, so they went with that, and I very much doubt that they will cancel the invitation. 1
Tacenda Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 23 hours ago, california boy said: The petition is not about what he might say, but what he represents. To many, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the most anti LGBT religion in America and has done thing and said things that they won't forget. He is a leader in that Church. And his Musket speech only makes the choice to have him speak that much less sensitive. The real question for me is, why would the school choose such a speaker that is so polarizing? What was the criteria for deciding he should speak as a commencement speaker that should consider the views of all of the students? What does Elder Holland have to say to all of the students that over ride what he represents to so many of those students? I assume most of you are aware of the recent PEW report on how the Church is viewed by the majority outside Mormonism. It is pretty clear not everyone thinks everything the Church does is wonderful and uplifting. Maybe it is not so much about sensoring as appropriateness. In the news it usually points out that he is from Southern Utah. Which seems to be wanting for sure.
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