Church fined by SEC

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Sixth upvote.

NEVER commit the sin of blind obedience. It changes you from a human with agency to an object to be acted upon.  It is an assault on your humanity.

It is a kidnapping and molestation of your spirit 

Then there is this…

Quote

1 Nephi 4:6 And I was led by the Spirit, not knowing beforehand the things which I should do.
7 Nevertheless I went forth….

…resulting in this unexpected event…

Quote

10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.
11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord; and he also had taken away our property.
12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;
13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.

…and then after understanding the reasons why…

Quote

17 …I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments.
18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword.

Abraham and Isaac also come to mind. 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Then there is this…

…resulting in this unexpected event…

…and then after understanding the reasons why…

Abraham and Isaac also come to mind. 

Blind obedience led to killing an unconscious man and attempting to kill one’s own child is not a defense of blind obedience I would go with.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Then there is this…

…resulting in this unexpected event…

…and then after understanding the reasons why…

Abraham and Isaac also come to mind. 

I think you missed the point here that he WAS following the spirit which WAS his conscience/ still small voice. Same with Abraham, but opposite situation/outcome.

"18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword."

 

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Blind obedience led to killing an unconscious man and attempting to kill one’s own child is not a defense of blind obedience I would go with.

But after deciding which voice was that of the spirit,/still small voice, he was still following his conscience after all.

[jkwilliams]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Blind obedience led to killing an unconscious man and attempting to kill one’s own child is not a defense of blind obedience I would go with.

It didn't work out so well for the Laffertys, either. 

[Teancum]

14 hours ago, CV75 said:

Both; it depends.

Wow.  The mental gyrations some of you use to justify and feel good about some things is amazing.  It really is not both.

[Teancum]

14 hours ago, Ryan Dahle said:

I guess I still don't understand your point. It is a driver's business to know the rules and regulations that pertain to driving, seeing that serious harm can come from breaking or discounting them. I assume that many people know they are breaking the speed limit when they are doing it. They know it is against the law. And yet they do it anyway, but usually not to an egregious extent. Likewise, I acknowledge that at least some people at the EPA were fully aware that they weren't complying with the reporting requirements (under the assumption that the SEC's report is essentially accurate on those key points, which I think is the more likely than not). 

I think the reason the speeding ticket comparison has often been evoked is that the EPA's non-compliance didn't actually result in any sort of crime, financial malfeasance, or really any type of harm at all (except as perceived by members of the Church itself who felt betrayed by it). In other words, the EPA didn't swindle anyone out of their money or take advantage of the market or anything like that. They just failed to comply with a reporting regulation. So, in that regard, it is sort of like someone intentionally surpassing the speed limit (and it would be especially analogous to a situation in which someone chooses to speed while knowing full well that they aren't a danger to anyone, seeing that the EPA would have known that their intentional non-compliance was not actually causing anyone financial harm). At least that seems like one fairly reasonable way to look at it. 

Ok fair enough.

[Teancum]

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

It doesn't means they have either.

Sure.  I was not asserting either.  The point was even if JS really has the vision he claimed does not mean that everything since then is true or accurate or that false ideas or doctrine has not crept into the church.

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Is science perfect and unchanging?  What do those words even mean?   Reality itself as we see it changes all the time.

I am not arguing that is is unchanging or perfect.

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

If that were not true, you could not be "correct" while you were in the church or now when you are out of it.  When were you correct, or did you screw up?

How do you know?

Subjectively.   How do you feel there kiddo? 

 

I have screwed a lot of things up.  😁

[Teancum]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Of course; however, that was not what my posts are about.  I am commenting on the over-regulation of our lives by local, state, and national governments. Even neighborhood covenants can be stifling and annoying.  We lived for decades in a highly regulated state. It was one reason we left and moved to a state with much less regulation. It’s like breathing the fresh air of a mountain meadow after living in 10x10 garage with no windows.

Well I cannot argue that we are not over regulated and living is a state that is very regulated I appreciate your comment about moving.  I have wanted to move as well at times but given my family situation it is not going to happen. Plus there are other things I really like about where we live so I put up with some of the negativity and the high taxes.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Wow.  The mental gyrations some of you use to justify and feel good about some things is amazing.  It really is not both.

You are clearly speculating and lapsing into making the personal judgements you complained about earlier.

[rodheadlee]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Of course; however, that was not what my posts are about.  I am commenting on the over-regulation of our lives by local, state, and national governments. Even neighborhood covenants can be stifling and annoying.  We lived for decades in a highly regulated state. It was one reason we left and moved to a state with much less regulation. It’s like breathing the fresh air of a mountain meadow after living in 10x10 garage with no windows.

The trucking industry is ripe with over regulation. If you drive over the road all 48 states, that is 48 states of regulations you have to learn. It is impossible for a small trucking company to do this. I've been hauled in at a weigh Station and made to sit for an hour with a flurry of phone calls back and forth with the head office and finally let go over some arcane regulation that I cannot remember what it was.

The bottom line is the guy at the weigh station just did not like me.

[Teancum]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I think you missed the point here that he WAS following the spirit which WAS his conscience/ still small voice. Same with Abraham, but opposite situation/outcome.

"18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword."

 

 

People do all sorts of awful things and think God is telling them to do it. Such a dilemma.

[Teancum]

19 minutes ago, CV75 said:

You are clearly speculating and lapsing into making the personal judgements you complained about earlier.

No.  I asked a simple question that requires no speculation and you dodged it.

[gopher]

Now that everyone seems to be in agreement that the Church and Ensign Peaks weren't at fault and the entire blame should be placed on their lousy legal counsel, is anyone else unhappy with the amount of the fine?  It seems excessive.  I've seen statements from the current SEC chairman claiming they are going to crackdown on violations, but trying to use a church as an example seems a poor decision.  It could also have a chilling effect on the other similar sized churches that also have $100 billion collected in tithing from its members.  What couldn't they have just issued a warning and dropped the case when they saw the church complied?  It just seems very heavy handed action against a church that is very deserving of its status as a persecuted minority group in the US.  Hatred towards the church is still very present as evidenced by the comments section of practically every news story that comes out.  It was disappointing to see the church leadership comply with this unfair ruling without any type of protest.  Hopefully the church will get it all back when the US finally comes through with reparations for all the egregious injustices this country has inflicted on church members.

[Snodgrassian]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Of course; however, that was not what my posts are about.  I am commenting on the over-regulation of our lives by local, state, and national governments. Even neighborhood covenants can be stifling and annoying.  We lived for decades in a highly regulated state. It was one reason we left and moved to a state with much less regulation. It’s like breathing the fresh air of a mountain meadow after living in 10x10 garage with no windows.

I will ask you this again:

How is requiring the individual fiscally responsible to confirm the accuracy of the 13F over-regulation? 

You don't think investment funds/vehicles need to be highly regulated? These regulations are in place to enable the SEC to fight bad actors. 

[Snodgrassian]

13 minutes ago, gopher said:

Now that everyone seems to be in agreement that the Church and Ensign Peaks weren't at fault and the entire blame should be placed on their lousy legal counsel, is anyone else unhappy with the amount of the fine?  It seems excessive.  I've seen statements from the current SEC chairman claiming they are going to crackdown on violations, but trying to use a church as an example seems a poor decision.  It could also have a chilling effect on the other similar sized churches that also have $100 billion collected in tithing from its members.  What couldn't they have just issued a warning and dropped the case when they saw the church complied?  It just seems very heavy handed action against a church that is very deserving of its status as a persecuted minority group in the US.  Hatred towards the church is still very present as evidenced by the comments section of practically every news story that comes out.  It was disappointing to see the church leadership comply with this unfair ruling without any type of protest.  Hopefully the church will get it all back when the US finally comes through with reparations for all the egregious injustices this country has inflicted on church members.

What other similar sized church has $100 billion? 

How is the Church a persecuted minority group? All churches receive similar comments.

[Bernard Gui]

15 minutes ago, Snodgrassian said:

I will ask you this again:

How is requiring the individual fiscally responsible to confirm the accuracy of the 13F over-regulation? 

You don't think investment funds/vehicles need to be highly regulated? These regulations are in place to enable the SEC to fight bad actors. 

Asked and answered several times. Not relevant to my comments. Please don’t ask again.

For example, 

Quote

Of course [fiscal responsibility is important]; however, that was not what my posts are about.  I am commenting on the over-regulation of our lives by local, state, and national governments. Even neighborhood covenants can be stifling and annoying.  We lived for decades in a highly regulated state. It was one reason we left and moved to a state with much less regulation. It’s like breathing the fresh air of a mountain meadow after living in 10x10 garage with no windows.

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[Dario_M]

14 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Asked and answered several times. Not relevant to my comments. Please don’t ask again.

For example, 

 

Hmmm. 🎭 Are you getting a bit salty here?

Btw.. that whas a long time ago when i saw you here for the last time. Feels like weeks to me or so. 

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Blind obedience led to killing an unconscious man and attempting to kill one’s own child is not a defense of blind obedience I would go with.

I absolutely would. They had an increasing trust of faith built on solid experience that is implicit in their decisions to follow “blindly.” We all have had similar, if not as dramatic, experiences.

[Bernard Gui]

3 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Hmmm. 🎭 Are you getting a bit salty here?

Btw.. that whas a long time ago when i saw you here for the last time. Feels like weeks to me or so. 

Not salty, but maybe frustrated?

Thanks. So you miss me? 😉 No, I have not been as active as I often am. It depends on my interest in the topics and the time I have available to participate. Hope you are well.

[Bernard Gui]

28 minutes ago, Snodgrassian said:

What other similar sized church has $100 billion? 

How is the Church a persecuted minority group? All churches receive similar comments.

What other church’s buildings are paid for before they are occupied?

I’m quite pleased to see the Church increase and shepherd its resources. Many of us should follow its example. When the straits are dire, we would all be better off. I wish our government had a reserve as big as its current debt. My grandchildren would be more secure were it so. As a bishop, one of my great blessings was to help families in need. I could assist them with the full backing of the Church’s storehouses. So it is across the world. 

[gopher]

42 minutes ago, Snodgrassian said:

What other similar sized church has $100 billion? 

Don't know since they have much better legal counsel to help them hide their money.

43 minutes ago, Snodgrassian said:

How is the Church a persecuted minority group? All churches receive similar comments.

I'm guessing you didn't live in Missouri before June 25, 1976.

[Dario_M]

26 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

Thanks. So you miss me? 😉

Yew i did. Missed you a lot. 🥰

26 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

No, I have not been as active as I often am. It depends on my interest in the topics and the time I have available to participate. Hope you are well.

Thank you for asking. I hope you are also doing great? 

There are some prity interesting topics on the moment i must say. It's worth it to take a look at those ones. 😉

I have also post in those topics. Unfortunatly i miss the right doctrines (at least they say) I have consulted my missionaries about those matters because they have more knowlege about doctrines than me. 

Have a great day sir. 🙏

Edited March 9, 2023 by Dario_M

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, gopher said:

Now that everyone seems to be in agreement that the Church and Ensign Peaks weren't at fault and the entire blame should be placed on their lousy legal counsel, is anyone else unhappy with the amount of the fine?  It seems excessive.  I've seen statements from the current SEC chairman claiming they are going to crackdown on violations, but trying to use a church as an example seems a poor decision.  It could also have a chilling effect on the other similar sized churches that also have $100 billion collected in tithing from its members.  What couldn't they have just issued a warning and dropped the case when they saw the church complied?  It just seems very heavy handed action against a church that is very deserving of its status as a persecuted minority group in the US.  Hatred towards the church is still very present as evidenced by the comments section of practically every news story that comes out.  It was disappointing to see the church leadership comply with this unfair ruling without any type of protest.  Hopefully the church will get it all back when the US finally comes through with reparations for all the egregious injustices this country has inflicted on church members.

Ummmm...What?!...to all of this. Have you actually read this thread?

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Ummmm...What?!...to all of this. Have you actually read this thread?

Poe's Law in action?