Church fined by SEC

[Diamondhands69]

On 6/16/2023 at 2:02 PM, Tacenda said:

Okay ya'll, I was just thinking in my mind that my husband's and I's bank account is a very small nest egg. We did recently open up a certificate of deposit. But was thinking the rest is just sitting there and we do have a 401 k as well that goes up and down depending. 

Thinking the church should help a poor couple out here and give money advice to it's members. Do they display where they invest I wonder, lazy learner here. I guess with that pile of money it balloons almost flawlessly. But we don't have that kind of money laying around. 

Is there websites that help, or give safe places to invest. I recently saw a place where you can be part of a large family like group and own real estate as low as $500 to begin with. 

We can't all be like the church and be the 5th largest land owner in the nation. 

First the church’s portfolio of US equities is available in its quarterly SEC 13F filings since it finally learned the law applies to the church just like everyone else. 
 

second they do not have flawless performance. They used to own $214million of Silicon Valley bank before it crashed. I am certain they lost most of that money. It went down too fast (60% in one afternoon iirc and 62% the next day) to safely unwind a position that large without outsized losses. I’m guessing they lost over $100mm widows mites. 
 

for your personal stuff see a financial advisor. Do not buy an annuity, whole life insurance or A share mutual funds. All those products are designed to enrich the advisor. Use a fiduciary who is able to get you into a broadly diversified portfolio. I don’t know how old you are, but you guys may be far enough along that taking outsized  risk isn’t doable as a way of catching up and you could be in the category of wealth preservation, 

like others said- find a financial advisor and watch for fees. Excessive fees. Also don’t get discouraged in your search. Many firms are mandating a minimum qtr mil or greater sum to invest. Also don’t consult your local ward transamerica or primerica rep. They are very poorly trained “advisors.”

 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Diamondhands69

[The Nehor]

On 6/16/2023 at 4:02 PM, Tacenda said:

Okay ya'll, I was just thinking in my mind that my husband's and I's bank account is a very small nest egg. We did recently open up a certificate of deposit. But was thinking the rest is just sitting there and we do have a 401 k as well that goes up and down depending. 

Thinking the church should help a poor couple out here and give money advice to it's members. Do they display where they invest I wonder, lazy learner here. I guess with that pile of money it balloons almost flawlessly. But we don't have that kind of money laying around. 

Is there websites that help, or give safe places to invest. I recently saw a place where you can be part of a large family like group and own real estate as low as $500 to begin with. 

We can't all be like the church and be the 5th largest land owner in the nation. 

I wouldn’t hire anyone. I would just split money amongst a few index funds with low fees and call it done.

I wouldn’t get into real estate that is group funded on a small funding level. The reality is if an asset class is doing well they don’t have to advertise or look for small investors to collectively hold it up in small bites.

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I wouldn’t hire anyone. I would just split money amongst a few index funds with low fees and call it done.

I wouldn’t get into real estate that is group funded on a small funding level. The reality is if an asset class is doing well they don’t have to advertise or look for small investors to collectively hold it up in small bites.

👍 Great advice!

[Tacenda]

11 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

First the church’s portfolio of US equities is available in its quarterly SEC 13F filings since it finally learned the law applies to the church just like everyone else. 
 

second they do not have flawless performance. They used to own $214million of Silicon Valley bank before it crashed. I am certain they lost most of that money. It went down too fast (60% in one afternoon iirc and 62% the next day) to safely unwind a position that large without outsized losses. I’m guessing they lost over $100mm widows mites. 
 

for your personal stuff see a financial advisor. Do not buy an annuity, whole life insurance or A share mutual funds. All those products are designed to enrich the advisor. Use a fiduciary who is able to get you into a broadly diversified portfolio. I don’t know how old you are, but you guys may be far enough along that taking outsized  risk isn’t doable as a way of catching up and you could be in the category of wealth preservation, 

like others said- find a financial advisor and watch for fees. Excessive fees. Also don’t get discouraged in your search. Many firms are mandating a minimum qtr mil or greater sum to invest. Also don’t consult your local ward transamerica or primerica rep. They are very poorly trained “advisors.”

 

Thank you, good advice!

[Diamondhands69]

18 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I wouldn’t hire anyone. I would just split money amongst a few index funds with low fees and call it done.

I wouldn’t get into real estate that is group funded on a small funding level. The reality is if an asset class is doing well they don’t have to advertise or look for small investors to collectively hold it up in small bites.

The only problem with not hiring anyone at least initially is the assessment for tolerance of market volatility isn’t there and most people frankly have neither the time nor the interest in doing the due diligence necessary to   build a diversified portfolio which meets their risk tolerance AND is low in fees. Additionally what frequency are they going to rebalance? Is there a plan to build for an income stream, one time major expenses, guaranteed income etc.?

individual investors are their own worst enemies. Generally they trade excessively, trade emotionally and fail to adjust for geopolitical and domestic influences. 
 

that said- someone with a long runway who contributes to a couple index funds and don’t mess with them can do well. Most don’t because of the factors above 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Diamondhands69

[UncleanDeacon]

The SEC fiasco indicates a deep integrity problem with LDS Leadership

[smac97]

3 minutes ago, UncleanDeacon said:

The SEC fiasco indicates a deep integrity problem with LDS Leadership

No, it does not.  And calling it a "fiasco" is contrived and overwrought.

Thanks,

-Smac

[ttribe]

3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

No, it does not.  And calling it a "fiasco" is contrived and overwrought.

Thanks,

-Smac

Or, maybe saying the use of the word "fiasco" is "contrived and overwrought" is really just an effort to gloss over the very real failings that occurred within Ensign Peak and the Church's oversight.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

Thanks,

-TTribe

[smac97]

45 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Quote

No, it does not.  And calling it a "fiasco" is contrived and overwrought.

Or, maybe saying the use of the word "fiasco" is "contrived and overwrought" is really just an effort to gloss over the very real failings that occurred within Ensign Peak and the Church's oversight.

Or, maybe exaggerating and obsessing over this story is really just an effort to mischaracterize and vilify the Church and its leaders.

A sense of proportionality and reasonableness is appropriate here.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[ttribe]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

Or, maybe exaggerating and obsessing over this story is really just an effort to mischaracterize and vilify the Church and its leaders.

A sense of proportionality and reasonableness is appropriate here.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Well, it seems your hyperbole is escaping again. The person to whom you responded is a new member and, as far as I know, this was that person's first post on the issue. That hardly seems indicative of "obsessing" over anything. Moreover, you have absolutely no idea when this information came to that person's attention. Nor do you have any idea when that person reached the conclusion which they chose to express here. In short, once again, your response was reactionary and unnecessary.

Thanks,

TTribe

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Quote

Or, maybe exaggerating and obsessing over this story is really just an effort to mischaracterize and vilify the Church and its leaders.

A sense of proportionality and reasonableness is appropriate here.  

Well, it seems your hyperbole is escaping again.

"The SEC fiasco indicates a deep integrity problem with LDS Leadership" is hyperbole.  My critique of it is not.

5 minutes ago, ttribe said:

The person to whom you responded is a new member and, as far as I know, this was that person's first post on the issue.

I don't think that matters.  It's still an overblown and contrived characterization of "LDS Leadership."

5 minutes ago, ttribe said:

That hardly seems indicative of "obsessing" over anything.

My comment about "obsessing" was directed at you, the gallant white knight who has spent plenty of time dwelling - "obsessing" - on the Church and its nefarious flaws.

-Smac

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, ttribe said:

The person to whom you responded is a new member

New at posting perhaps, been a board member for almost two years (just fyi, not commentary)

Edited June 30, 2023 by Calm

[ttribe]

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

"The SEC fiasco indicates a deep integrity problem with LDS Leadership" is hyperbole.  My critique of it is not.

I don't think that matters.  It's still an overblown and contrived characterization of "LDS Leadership."

My comment about "obsessing" was directed at you, the gallant white knight who has spent plenty of time dwelling - "obsessing" - on the Church and its nefarious flaws.

-Smac

🤣🤣🤣 Yes, I'm SO "obsessed" that I haven't even posted on this board, including this thread, in 2-weeks! Phew! I should get help!

Thanks,

TTribe

[ttribe]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

New at posting perhaps, been a board member for almost two years 

My error; I saw "NEW MEMBER" on their profile and assumed.

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, ttribe said:

My error; I saw "NEW MEMBER" on their profile and assumed.

I always check for some reason, my obsessiveness I guess.  It shouldn’t really make a difference given it just shows awareness of the board, not that they lurked or anything enough to get familiar with board culture or whatever, so they should be treated as if they just signed up imo.

[smac97]

55 minutes ago, ttribe said:

🤣🤣🤣 Yes, I'm SO "obsessed" that I haven't even posted on this board, including this thread, in 2-weeks! Phew! I should get help!

Thanks,

TTribe

5,512 posts.  Going back 12+ years, to January 25, 2011, or 4,539 days ago.   That works out to an average of 1.2 posts per day.  On a board about a religion you dislike.

Thanks,

-Smac

[ttribe]

43 minutes ago, smac97 said:

5,512 posts.  Going back 12+ years, to January 25, 2011, or 4,539 days ago.   That works out to an average of 1.2 posts per day.  On a board about a religion you dislike.

Thanks,

-Smac

Oh, please, Spencer. When have I ever expressed the sentiment that "I don't like" the Church? I may no longer believe in its truth claims, but I suspect you won't find me expressing that sentiment in a single one of those posts. Additionally, that 5,512 number goes back to July 16, 2008. I was a believer and amateur defender until December 2010. By and large, I don't think you'd find that I'm quite the raging anti you're trying to make me out to be.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

54 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I don't think you'd find that I'm quite the raging anti you're trying to make me out to be.

When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail...

[Pyreaux]

Don't fight, you're missing the view!

Of the 5 posts by UncleanDeacon, all of them have been negative. The post here is superlative, which one should not do unless one's prepared to prove it, as it usually rings alarm bells for any reader with a positive opinion of the church and half a brain to question the statement.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Pyreaux

[smac97]

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

Quote

5,512 posts.  Going back 12+ years, to January 25, 2011, or 4,539 days ago.   That works out to an average of 1.2 posts per day.  On a board about a religion you dislike.

Oh, please, Spencer. When have I ever expressed the sentiment that "I don't like" the Church? I may no longer believe in its truth claims, but I suspect you won't find me expressing that sentiment in a single one of those posts. Additionally, that 5,512 number goes back to July 16, 2008. I was a believer and amateur defender until December 2010. By and large, I don't think you'd find that I'm quite the raging anti you're trying to make me out to be.

"a religion you dislike" ≠ "raging anti"

-Smac97

[ttribe]

Since I'm allegedly "obsessing," might as well play the role. In case you haven't seen it, the Wall Street Journal published an article this week entitled Inside the Mormon Church's Globe Spanning Real-Estate Empire: From Guam to Cape Verde, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is using the financial cushion of its $100 billion investment portfolio to go on a temple building spree (https://www.wsj.com/articles/mormon-church-temple-spending-spree-utah-e167977f?ns=prod/accounts-wsj).

Some elements of the article (if you don't have a subscription to the WSJ) -

Quote

In February, the church and Ensign Peak agreed to fines of $1 million and $4 million, respectively, to settle Securities and Exchange Commission claims that they obscured the church’s investment holdings. The SEC alleged the church used more than a dozen hard-to-trace shell companies to file false disclosure reports that hid the size of its investments for almost 20 years.

Caussé declined to discuss details of the SEC settlement. “We recognize mistakes, and we regret mistakes,” he said. The church says cash from Ensign Peak helps fund its religious, charitable and educational activities. “There is no other purpose. Nobody is getting rich,” Caussé said. “Everything goes to these.”

 

Quote

As the SEC requires, Ensign Peak now discloses its U.S. stockholdings—a subset of the total—which it valued at $46.2 billion as of March 31. The figure doesn’t include other types of investments, such as bonds, private equity or real estate. 

The church also has misstated its assets on federal tax returns. On its 2007 return, Ensign Peak put down “1,000,000” for its total assets. The real number was about $38 billion, an Ensign Peak document shows. In later years, Ensign Peak wrote “over 1,000,000” on its returns. The church followed the same practices on its own IRS returns, where it reports business income unrelated to its tax-exempt mission.

A 2007 Ensign Peak Advisors tax return showed assets totaling $1,000,000. The real number was about $38 billion.

Church officials said they believe that, as a religious organization, the church doesn’t have to disclose its assets. Todd Budge, another member of the presiding bishopric, said anyone familiar with the church would know its assets exceeded $1 million. “It wasn’t an accurate answer. It wasn’t meant to be an accurate answer,” said Budge, a 63-year-old former banking and private-equity executive. “It was simply meant to communicate that we do not feel that we’re obligated to fill in that box.”

 

Quote

Church officials say the investment portfolio supports the church’s growth, and that building new temples is a crucial part of that mission.

Temples differ from the thousands of meetinghouses or chapels used for regular worship services. Temples are the only place where sacred ceremonies known as sealings, which include weddings, can be performed to unite families for eternity, one of the divinely appointed responsibilities of the church. Tithing is required of members to gain admission to the church’s temples.

Temples, which rely on the description of Solomon’s Temple in the Bible, can be opulent affairs and are often hard-to-miss structures in cities. The Pocatello, Idaho, temple, which opened in 2021, towers over the neighborhood in a region that has become a stronghold for the church.

When the church made a temple-building push in the late 1990s and early 2000s, the structures were designed to be cost-effective, minimalist and focused on rituals rather than the materials, said Benjamin Park, a professor at Sam Houston State University in Huntsville, Texas, who has written two books on Mormon history. “Now you’re getting another impulse, actually materials do matter, showing devotion,” he said.

Last year, the church opened five new temples—two in Brazil, including one in Rio de Janeiro, and one each in Guam, Cape Verde and Ecuador. The temples in Brazil and Ecuador range from 28,675 to 36,780 square feet, while the others are much smaller.

The temple in Belém, along the Amazon River, brought the number in Brazil to nine and will serve tens of thousands of members in northeastern Brazil who previously had to travel to the temple in Fortaleza, a two-hour flight away. The “blue, green, yellow and pink color palette [of the stained glass] is a nod to the rainforest that covers much of the region,” the church said shortly before the temple opened in November.

The church dedicated a temple the same day in Quito, Ecuador, its second in the country, which is home to about 260,000 members. The exterior is clad in white Turkish limestone, a church press release said. In addition to the 36,780-square-foot temple, the four-building complex includes a 23,463-square-foot ancillary building.

“I think the church is recognizing that they’re facing a financial cliff in coming generations,” Park said, noting most of the church’s membership growth is coming from developing countries that don’t generate as much tithing revenue. Having a $100 billion investment portfolio helps ensure it can keep expanding globally. “I think this financial nest egg is a way to kind of calm that anxiety,” Park said.

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by ttribe

[Teancum]

On 7/1/2023 at 2:11 PM, ttribe said:

Since I'm allegedly "obsessing," might as well play the role. In case you haven't seen it, the Wall Street Journal published an article this week entitled Inside the Mormon Church's Globe Spanning Real-Estate Empire: From Guam to Cape Verde, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is using the financial cushion of its $100 billion investment portfolio to go on a temple building spree (https://www.wsj.com/articles/mormon-church-temple-spending-spree-utah-e167977f?ns=prod/accounts-wsj).

Some elements of the article (if you don't have a subscription to the WSJ) -

 

 

 

If EPA was required to file a Form 990 and they falsified it they are guilty of perjury.  It is as simple as that.  The idea that they believed because their fund was related to a religion, and by the way church's are NOT required to file a Form 990,  is specious and stupid and has no relevance on the issue.  A Church may not be required to file the Form 990 but it can have entities that are subject to the requirement. For example, BYU files a Form 990.  So if EPA was required it looks like they falsified the form.  

Edited July 6, 2023 by Teancum

[Stormin' Mormon]

Nevermind.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Stormin' Mormon

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Nevermind.

Good decision.  There is no good way you can defend flat out perjury and deliberate misrepresentation.

[Stormin' Mormon]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Good decision.  There is no good way you can defend flat out perjury and deliberate misrepresentation.

You're right that I can't defend outright perjury. But your perjury accusation rests on two "ifs." There's a lot of imaginary wrong-doing that can be insinuated with a pair of "ifs."