Did Joseph Smith teach Adam-God?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Downvoting a bunch of posts in an attempt to turn public opinion against an individual and discredit them is another manifestation of this.

I think you are over dramatizing why the vast majority of people downvote.  The idea that a downvote is going to change someone’s opinion is silly and I doubt most think that way.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

Ironic that you are now ignoring my point about the Spirit. 

I’m not ignoring your point about the Spirit and instead start some pointless argument and kept it going on and on. I actually replied to your points twice. And I will reply to your most recent one, too. 

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am not going to hound you like a ravenous beast even after you state yourintention to end the conversation for a stated reason andaccuse you of "obviously" having  lying about those reasons and hiding because you don't have an answer. 

I neither hounded you nor accused you of lying. I pointed out that you were arguing over something pointless that wasn’t even related to what we were talking about instead of addressing the issue that we were talking about. So please stop with these silly games.

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

So now that the church is ok with members identifying as gay, you think that more will stay as life-long celibates?  That seems silly. 

Yes, it’s definitely silly. The whole Mormon and Gay campaign, where the church presented all of these testimonials of people who openly identified as gay and remained celibate was a complete disaster. This message doesn’t work and won’t work. 

10 minutes ago, pogi said:

Where are the old celibate people who have same-sex attraction and have remained celibate their entire lives?

You don’t know any old members of the church who have never been married? They’re not very common, but they do exist. You don’t know why they have never married. They keep the reasons to themselves because it’s nobodies business. Why don’t you start asking all of them if it’s because of same-sex attraction and see what happens? 

But as I said, the message of openly identifying as homosexual but remaining celibate doesn’t work. What works is confiding in loved ones and perhaps a bishop or other trusted church leaders that one is struggling with unwanted same-sex attraction and seeking help to overcome this challenge, while committing to keep the law of chastity. 

 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Without the scriptures you wouldn’t even know what the Holy Ghost is or how to recognize how he confirms truth.

And you still haven’t responded to or even acknowledged my point about the old life-long openly gay but celibate member. So I think it’s obvious that you are ending the conversation to avoid addressing this point. 

Sometimes yes, sometime no; it depends. When i first prayed to know which Church to join, I had an experience that I attributed to the Holy Spirit. At the time, I was unaware of Moroni's promise, etc. and no one had taught me about the Holy Ghost as a witness of truth. A short time later, I had gotten a hold of a Book of Mormon, read it, and put Moroni's promise to the test, perhaps somewhat better informed of the Holy Ghost's role by that passage of scripture and others in the Book of Mormon. But it wasn't until a year or more later that I came across D&C 9:8 and that clinched it for me. Some four years after that I was actually formally taught by the missionaries and joined the Church.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

38 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think you are over dramatizing why the vast majority of people downvote.  The idea that a downvote is going to change someone’s opinion is silly and I doubt most think that way.

I'm not referring to the occasional downvote in the course of a conversation (which I consider to be juvenile behavior). I'm referring to coming late to a thread, not joining the conversation, and then casting a flurry of downvotes all directed at one poster or a couple of posters whose views the individual clearly finds threatening or offensive in the way that @Rock_N_Roll did. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

As I stated, we are not talking about where truth is taught, we are talking about how one recognizes it.  You seem to think that I am discounting the scriptures as a source - I'm not.  Yes, the scriptures/prophets taught me about the Holy Ghost, but it is my experience with it and the fruits (not the scriptures) that confirms what aligns with God's will.

But you wouldn't have any idea what God's will is or how to discover it without the scriptures. You wouldn't know what God's commandments are without the scriptures/prophets. You wouldn't know anything about Jesus Christ or his teachings without the scriptures/prophets. Your inner compass isn't going to tell you God's will without the general knowledge of God's will and purposes that you gain from the scriptures/prophets or those who taught you these things from this source. 

[pogi]

34 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

But as I said, the message of openly identifying as homosexual but remaining celibate doesn’t work.

So, you think the church is wrong to be ok with it?

What doesn't work is expecting someone to be celibate their whole life in the hope that they will be turned straight in the next.  THAT doesn't work. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

35 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Sometimes yes, sometime no; it depends. When i first prayed to know which Church to join, I had an experience that I attributed to the Holy Spirit. At the time, I was unaware of Moroni's promise, etc. and no one had taught me about the Holy Ghost as a witness of truth. A short time later, I had gotten a hold of a Book of Mormon, read it, and put Moroni's promise to the test, perhaps somewhat better informed of the Holy Ghost's role by that passage of scripture and others in the Book of Mormon. But it wasn't until a year or more later that I came across D&C 9:8 and that clinched it for me. Some four years after that I was actually formally taught by the missionaries and joined the Church.

People can definitely have spiritual experiences without having knowing about Moroni's promise or other scriptures, but they aren't going to know how to test teachings and receive an answer by the spirit without or determine God's will without the scriptures/prophets. Everyone also has access to the light of Christ and therefore receives some direction of what is right and what is wrong, but this inner compass alone won't truly show them God's will.

[california boy]

6 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I'm not referring to the occasional downvote in the course of a conversation (which I consider to be juvenile behavior). I'm referring to coming late to a thread, not joining the conversation, and then casting a flurry of downvotes all directed at one poster or a couple of posters whose views the individual clearly finds threatening or offensive in the way that @Rock_N_Roll did. 

Some people find your remarks offensive and given the way you respond to posts, feel it pointless to engage with you.  They use down votes to clearly let you know that they do not believe or support your opinions on certain matters. The fact that you easily dismiss concrete data on how few hold the same opinion of gay marriage as you do (only 6% of the Church population) clearly shows that facts don't matter.   Instead you resort to emotional soap boxing.

I personally am not much of a downvoter kind of guy.  I like hearing different points of view.  But at some point, when I see that continuing a conversation any longer is more pointless than illuminating, I tend to be less engaging.  Maybe I should at that point just use downvotes to express how wrong I feel your posts are.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

27 minutes ago, pogi said:

So, you think the church is wrong to be ok with it?

I think the church is in a tough spot. They are trying to be as inclusive as possible for people who struggle with same-sex attraction or identify themselves as LGBTQ, without lowering God's standards. I think that they are going too far in their desire to be inclusive and tolerant and it's sending a mixed message that is wrong and doesn't work. 

27 minutes ago, pogi said:

What doesn't work is expecting someone to be celibate their whole life in the hope that they will be turned straight in the next.  THAT doesn't work. 

I think what works is teaching people to have faith in Christ and put their trust in him by committing to keep all of his commandments, including the law of chastity, come what may. While the LGBTQ community likes to deny this, people do overcome same-sex attraction or find happiness while still dealing with same-sex attraction to some degree, without pursuing lifestyles that violate the law of chastity. 

One of my favorite scriptures is:

Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ... then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot. (Moroni 10:32-33)

Edited March 17, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[Grug the Neanderthal]

1 minute ago, california boy said:

The fact that you easily dismiss concrete data on how few hold the same opinion of gay marriage as you do (only 6% of the Church population) clearly shows that facts don't matter.

I didn't dismiss the data. I pointed out the data doesn't show what you are claiming. The survey didn't ask whether or not the individual member believed that same-sex marriage was against the laws of God, The survey asked whether the individual supported or opposed same-sex marriage. Not the same thing.

Someone can support the right for individuals to have the freedom to enter into a same-sex marriage while believing that same-sex marriages are against the laws of God. And given the current political climate and the church's recent support of the legalization of same-sex marriage, while maintaining that same-sex marriages are against the laws of God, you can see why so many members say that they either don't know if they support or oppose same-sex marriage or they support it. The data from this survey therefore doesn't tell us what they views of the members are about whether or not they believe that same-sex marriages are against the laws of God. 

And for the record, I'm actually in the category of "I don't know" on that survey, which means that I'm with the majority of members surveyed. I can see the argument for both sides. I believe in liberty and agency. But also see how the legalization of same-sex marriage and the normalization of LGBTQ lifestyles is destructive to individuals and societies. Within the United States it's a moot point anyway. Same-sex marriages are now legal, whether individuals support it or not. 

[california boy]

21 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I didn't dismiss the data. I pointed out the data doesn't show what you are claiming. The survey didn't ask whether or not the individual member believed that same-sex marriage was against the laws of God, The survey asked whether the individual supported or opposed same-sex marriage. Not the same thing.

Someone can support the right for individuals to have the freedom to enter into a same-sex marriage while believing that same-sex marriages are against the laws of God. And given the current political climate and the church's recent support of the legalization of same-sex marriage, while maintaining that same-sex marriages are against the laws of God, you can see why so many members say that they either don't know if they support or oppose same-sex marriage or they support it. The data from this survey therefore doesn't tell us what they views of the members are about whether or not they believe that same-sex marriages are against the laws of God. 

And for the record, I'm actually in the category of "I don't know" on that survey, which means that I'm with the majority of members surveyed. I can see the argument for both sides. I believe in liberty and agency. But also see how the legalization of same-sex marriage and the normalization of LGBTQ lifestyles is destructive to individuals and societies. Within the United States it's a moot point anyway. Same-sex marriages are now legal, whether individuals support it or not. 

If you truly believe that God is so strongly against gay marriage, shouldn't you also be against it?  Why would you support gay marriage when you feel so strongly that God is against it?  Why do you not know whether you should support gay marriage or not?

Are you seeing that gay marriages can provide the same kind of strong family relationships as your marriage and that there is much good in allowing gay couples to marry?

 

Edited March 17, 2023 by california boy

[Benjamin Seeker]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

As I explained, there is no public, prolonged heated debate "within the Church", meaning there was (for the ban) and is (for ssm) no contention within the councils and there was and is no place for contention within the body of Christ. What you are describing is more in the way of some members expressing angst or arguing over doctrine and policy, which is not (and never was) the basis for revelation nor the environment in which it is received in the presiding councils of the Church.

Fair point. There hasn’t been, as far as I know, an expression from leadership that questions the church’s stance on ssm.

That could be an indicator there isn’t a change or revelation on the horizon. I don’t agree with the church’s position and hope to see a change, but I recognize the strength of what you’re saying. 

Edited March 17, 2023 by Benjamin Seeker

[Grug the Neanderthal]

22 minutes ago, california boy said:

If you truly believe that God is so strongly against gay marriage, shouldn't you also be against it? Why would you support gay marriage when you feel so strongly that God is against it? 

Because we believe in free agency and that people are free to choose to follow God’s laws or not. Plus same-sex marriage is already legal in the United States and not likely to be overturned any time soon. So what’s the point in being openly opposed to it anymore? It won’t accomplish anything. This is the approach the church has taken recently, while still maintaining that same-sex marriage is against the laws of God and that’s never going to change. 

22 minutes ago, california boy said:

Are you seeing that gay marriages can provide the same kind of strong family relationships as your marriage and that there is much good in allowing gay couples to marry?

No, I think so-called same-sex marriages are one of Satan’s fake versions of God’s ordained marriage that in the end binds people with the chains of hell. But people are free to choose liberty or the captivity of the devil. 

Edited March 17, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[california boy]

1 minute ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Because we believe in free agency and that people are free to choose to follow God’s laws or not.

Interesting.  So you support all laws whether they go against your religious beliefs or not?  Because I actually am not ok with laws that go against my beliefs.  I work to overturn those laws.

 

1 minute ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Plus same-sex marriage is already legal in the United States and not likely to be overturned any time soon. So what’s the point in being openly opposed to it anymore? It won’t accomplish anything.

Just trying to understand your point of view.  Just because a law will not likely be overturned is a reason to support that law?  Or at least not be concerned about that law? 

1 minute ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

 

This is the approach the church has taken recently, while still maintaining that same-sex marriage is against the laws of God and that’s never going to change. 

Oh I get it.  The whole whatever the Church leaders do you should follow that example whether right or wrong.  That is not as important as following the leaders.  Actually that makes sense.  I see a lot of that in you posts.  

1 minute ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

No, I think so-called same-sex marriages are one of Satan’s fake versions of God’s ordained marriage that in the end binds people in the chains of hell. But people are free to chose liberty or the captivity of the devil. 

So you are ok with supporting or at least not be concerned about Satan's fake version that sends them to the chains of hell.  I have to say, this is the most puzzling thought process you seem to have.

 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

4 minutes ago, california boy said:

The whole whatever the Church leaders do you should follow that example whether right or wrong.  That is not as important as following the leaders.  Actually that makes sense.  I see a lot of that in you posts.

Then you must not have read very many of my posts, or the title of this thread, or my thoughts on Adam-God. I’m definitely not in the follow the leaders no matter what camp. I respect the leaders and sustain them as having the keys and a stewardship over the whole church, but I definitely disagree with some of what they do and say and have serious concerns about the direction of the church as a whole. 

8 minutes ago, california boy said:

So you are ok with supporting or at least not be concerned about Satan's fake version that sends them to the chains of hell.

Allowing people to exercise their free agency and not fighting laws that have no chance of being overturned doesn’t mean that one isn’t concerned about people making bad decisions that lead them to being bound in the chains of hell. Obviously I’m concerned about this (just read my comments in this thread). And obviously the church is too, since the church warns against this and restricts the membership of those who do this.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

People can definitely have spiritual experiences without having knowing about Moroni's promise or other scriptures, but they aren't going to know how to test teachings and receive an answer by the spirit without or determine God's will without the scriptures/prophets. Everyone also has access to the light of Christ and therefore receives some direction of what is right and what is wrong, but this inner compass alone won't truly show them God's will.

To make a long story short, I took someone's word to pray to know what church to join: no scriptural explanation or tutoring from the scriptures/prophets about "how to test teachings and receive an answer by the spirit." The light of Christ did not bear witness to me that I should join the Church, the Holy Ghost did. I correctly identified the power as being from the Holy Ghost though I never read such a concept from the scriptures; this came from the experience in the moment. Yes, I had heard the term "Holy Ghost/Spirit" before, but was I not scripturally educated as to his testifying function or aware of scriptural references until later.

We can review the various functions and roles of the light of Christ, the power of the Holy Ghost, the Gift of the Holy Ghost (the Comforter), the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost and related principles, but that does no explain how I correctly identified the Holy Ghost as the power in my communion with God, without having read any of this in the scriptures beforehand.

This takes nothing away from the value of the purpose and what is gained from the scriptures/prophets.

[CV75]

45 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

Fair point. There hasn’t been, as far as I know, an expression from leadership that questions the church’s stance on ssm.

That could be an indicator there isn’t a change or revelation on the horizon. I don’t agree with the church’s position and hope to see a change, but I recognize the strength of what you’re saying. 

I think many saints try to bridge the “commandments of men” with the Lord’s (D&C 46:7 - 12), but this is not always possible. I believe cultivating spiritual gifts (including personal revelation), while recognizing the framework for general revelation, helps with this.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

If you truly believe that God is so strongly against gay marriage, shouldn't you also be against it?  Why would you support gay marriage when you feel so strongly that God is against it?  Why do you not know whether you should support gay marriage or not?

Are you seeing that gay marriages can provide the same kind of strong family relationships as your marriage and that there is much good in allowing gay couples to marry?

 

I see questions like these as an effort to address one's personal position on a civil rights question but not getting very far with challenging a church's doctrine of marriage. In our Church this is due to the process of how general revelation comes about. Not by way of public controversy and debate, but by way of councils with respect to doctrines and covenants.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

48 minutes ago, CV75 said:

To make a long story short, I took someone's word to pray to know what church to join: no scriptural explanation or tutoring from the scriptures/prophets about "how to test teachings and receive an answer by the spirit." The light of Christ did not bear witness to me that I should join the Church, the Holy Ghost did. I correctly identified the power as being from the Holy Ghost though I never read such a concept from the scriptures; this came from the experience in the moment. Yes, I had heard the term "Holy Ghost/Spirit" before, but was I not scripturally educated as to his testifying function or aware of scriptural references until later.

We can review the various functions and roles of the light of Christ, the power of the Holy Ghost, the Gift of the Holy Ghost (the Comforter), the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost and related principles, but that does no explain how I correctly identified the Holy Ghost as the power in my communion with God, without having read any of this in the scriptures beforehand.

This takes nothing away from the value of the purpose and what is gained from the scriptures/prophets.

I get what you’re saying, I don’t disagree. My point is that everything you knew about church, Jesus Christ, God, the Holy Spirit, etc. prior to this experience originated from the scriptures/prophets. You heard these things from people who ultimately got them from this source.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

Fair point. There hasn’t been, as far as I know, an expression from leadership that questions the church’s stance on ssm.

That could be an indicator there isn’t a change or revelation on the horizon. I don’t agree with the church’s position and hope to see a change, but I recognize the strength of what you’re saying. 

The church shouldn't ever ex someone who gets married in a SSM. It's the best overall outcome for the situation IMO. Not that you were saying that. Your post just made me think of it. And maybe since recently the church supports the same sex marriage law, that is a good start. And maybe it's not as common as I was thinking, ex'g members who do that, in the back of my mind I thought it was. 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Tacenda

[Dario_M]

3 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I’m not ignoring your point about the Spirit and instead start some pointless argument and kept it going on and on. I actually replied to your points twice. And I will reply to your most recent one, too. 

I neither hounded you nor accused you of lying. I pointed out that you were arguing over something pointless that wasn’t even related to what we were talking about instead of addressing the issue that we were talking about. So please stop with these silly games.

Yes, it’s definitely silly. The whole Mormon and Gay campaign, where the church presented all of these testimonials of people who openly identified as gay and remained celibate was a complete disaster. This message doesn’t work and won’t work. 

You don’t know any old members of the church who have never been married? They’re not very common, but they do exist. You don’t know why they have never married. They keep the reasons to themselves because it’s nobodies business. Why don’t you start asking all of them if it’s because of same-sex attraction and see what happens? 

But as I said, the message of openly identifying as homosexual but remaining celibate doesn’t work. What works is confiding in loved ones and perhaps a bishop or other trusted church leaders that one is struggling with unwanted same-sex attraction and seeking help to overcome this challenge, while committing to keep the law of chastity. 

 

Seeking help??? You make it sound as if gay people have some kind of diseases or mental illness. The things you are saying Grug are so so extremaly offensive. Come on...you gotta be kidding me. Don't be such an Neanderthal please. 🙏

Edited March 18, 2023 by Dario_M

[Grug the Neanderthal]

11 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Seeking help? As if gay people have some kind of deseas or mental illness. The things you are saying Grug are so so extremaly offensive.

I don’t believe that I said anything inherently offensive here. I’m sorry you were offended.

All of us are sick. All of us need help overcoming sinful tendencies and temptations. 
 

12 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Don't be such an Neandeethal please.

I am what I am. 🙂

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I'm not referring to the occasional downvote in the course of a conversation (which I consider to be juvenile behavior). I'm referring to coming late to a thread, not joining the conversation, and then casting a flurry of downvotes all directed at one poster or a couple of posters whose views the individual clearly finds threatening or offensive in the way that @Rock_N_Roll did. 

Yeah, overdramatizing the importance of your posts and the votes you are getting. Why can’t he just not like your posts?  Why does he have to feel threatened or have hurt feelings?  And why is it a big deal to vote when not posting when the best part of the system imo is it means you can show appreciation or disagreement with a post without having to post yourself. I expect downvotes more from those who aren’t posting than those who are because they can address their dislike or disagreement in more detailed ways, though I have never tracked votes enough to make a claim on it  

Coming late to a thread makes all the more reason not to get emotionally involved in the conversation and if it is only one or two posters’ posts he doesn’t like, of course he would be just downvoting them and not others that move him even less.

You seem to look on the downvoting process as much more complicated than it typically is, ime. (I think upvoting is more complicated since people use it for all sorts of things, but downvoting seems limited to disagreement or dislike and the only real variation in my opinion is some save it for strong or highly significant disagreement while others use it to simply save a post, so the disagreement can be pretty minor or no big deal…but all that means imo is one should not get fussed by downvotes, though if from someone you highly respect on an important topic, you might think about looking at what you said from the other’s view just to see if it adds nuance to your own thoughts and ask for clarification if needed. But for most posters, my suggestion is to think no more of a downvote than you would a nod, smile, frown, or a roll of the eyes. That would cut down on unnecessary drama.

Ugh, so many typos today. Hopefully I got the bad ones at least. 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Calm

[Grug the Neanderthal]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

You seem to look on the downvoting process as much more complicated than it typically is, ime.  My suggestion is to think no more of them than you would a nod, smile, frown, or a roll of the eyes. That would cut down in unnecessary drama. 

We all know that a downvote means more than this. Especially when there’s a wave of them. 

[Benjamin Seeker]

50 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

The church shouldn't ever ex someone who gets married in a SSM. It's the best overall outcome for the situation IMO. Not that you were saying that. Your post just made me think of it. And maybe since recently the church supports the same sex marriage law, that is a good start. And maybe it's not as common as I was thinking, ex'g members who do that, in the back of my mind I thought it was. 

I agree with you. I have no idea what the typical disciplinary response is for SSM right now. The official tone or attitude was softened when that policy was walked back.