Did Joseph Smith teach Adam-God?

[Grug the Neanderthal]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

I asked first 

I don’t really care if you answer my question or not. I think your question was insincere and designed to entrap me and I’m not interested in taking the bait. 

But if your question was sincere and not intended as a trap, you shouldn’t have any problem answering my question first. 

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I don’t really care if you answer my question or not. I think your question was insincere and designed to entrap me and I’m not interested in taking the bait. 

But if your question was sincere and not intended as a trap, you shouldn’t have any problem answering my question first. 

I find it interesting you think a question that is intended to clarify your reasoning for me is a trap.  You seem to often believe the worst of me when such things never even occur to me.  It is too much work for me to manipulate people and the few times I tried when younger backfired enough that I don’t care to try.  Much easier just to ask if I want something and I feel tons better about myself.  Seriously, it killed me just to tell my grandmother I was doing fine when I wasn’t and there was nothing she could do, so why worry her?  I wonder now if you think I am lying about this.  And before, if people denied they were using the downvotes to put pressure on others, you jumped to the conclusion they were being dishonest before one person voted. I wonder why you see the negative so much more than the positive in myself and others. If you don’t personally try to trap others, lie about your purpose, manipulate others, why do you assume so often others are doing that? In my experience people tend to see what they look for, so I am curious as to why you look for the negative so much rather than giving people the benefit of the doubt.
 

The only reason I need to know how you view what someone does to experiment when they lack the scriptures we have is I don’t understand your reasoning as it seems very incomplete to me, a snap shot of a few minutes in a lifetime essentially of the human race.  I can’t answer your question until I understand your terms.  I may be able to understand better if you answer mine first.  I may not, but there is at least a better chance of understanding. If you decide not to, I do not intend to give you an answer to a question when I believe there is not enough information to proceed.  It would be like someone asking me for a recipe and when I ask what for, they tell me they refuse to tell me until I give them the recipe.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Calm

[InCognitus]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

 It would be like someone asking me for a recipe and when I ask what for, they tell me they refuse to tell me until I give them the recipe.

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

I was going to add that, but thought it was my sleep deprivation pushing me…it is a nice touch, right?  Lol

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

As a I said in a previous comment, the scriptures don’t give us a clear answer on Adam-God one way or the other. 

Ok, but I asked: how does your view of the word of God in the scriptures (you figure they haven't a clear answer) comport with your view of Jospeh Smith teaching Adam-God (what is that?)? 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

59 minutes ago, Calm said:

I can’t answer your question until I understand your terms.

The question isn’t a difficult one. Do you believe that we should plant the seed of faith and nourish it for all teachings from various religions and cultures? You don’t need to understand any terms from me in order to answer this. 

But if you don’t want to answer that’s fine. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

16 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Ok, but I asked: how does your view of the word of God in the scriptures (you figure they haven't a clear answer) comport with your view of Jospeh Smith teaching Adam-God (what is that?)? 

I don’t understand what you are asking. Please clarify. 

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

The question isn’t a difficult one. Do you believe that we should plant the seed of faith and nourish it for all teachings from various religions and cultures? You don’t need to understand any terms from me in order to answer this. 

But if you don’t want to answer that’s fine. 

Fine, I will answer it according to my assumptions which I am positive are not the same as yours.

If any teaching calls to us, no matter where it is from, I think we should plant the seed of faith and experiment on it,

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I don’t understand what you are asking. Please clarify. 

And yet to me the question is not a difficult one at all (perhaps because I have been reading and talking with CV for years now, though that doesn’t remove all need for clarification).  Hmmm…..maybe what is simple to one person is confusing to another and we should just take people’s word that they need clarification in order to answer it even if it appears very clear cut to us.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Calm

[Grug the Neanderthal]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

If any teaching calls to us, no matter where it is from, I think we should plant the seed of faith and experiment on it. 

What if the teachings contradicts what is taught in the scriptures?

And now my answer to your question. People should plant the seed of faith and investigate Mormonism if the Holy Ghost moves them to do so. I have no allusions of converting the whole world and I don’t believe that everyone should investigate Mormonism out of some duty to test all teachings. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

And yet to me the question is not a difficult one at all (perhaps because I have been reading and talking with CV for years now, though that doesn’t remove all need for clarification).  Hmmm…..maybe what is simple to one person is confusing to another and we should just take people’s word that they need clarification in order to answer it even if it appears very clear cut to us.

You were able to easily answer my question without any clarification from me though. 

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

And now my answer to your question. People should plant the seed of faith and investigate Mormonism if the Holy Ghost moves them to do so. I have no allusions of converting the whole world and I don’t believe that everyone should investigate Mormonism out of some duty to test all teachings. 

And if their scriptures tell them this is wrong?  Have you encountered other Christians who believe it is a sin to pray about the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon because they believe it is a “other gospel” spoken of in the Bible? (Galatians 1:8 I believe).  What would you tell them to be open to the Holy Ghost moving them to do so?

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

You were able to easily answer my question without any clarification from me though. 

I suspect you don’t understand what I mean by it though given how you respond to almost every comment I make…as in missing my point in case that wasn’t clear.  And given how you responded this time too.

If you want to explain what I meant I will tell you if I think you got close this time (no one understands another perfectly in my experience, there is always some significant context surrounding the words that differ between individuals) and then attempt to answer the question you asked as follow up which doesn’t have much to do with my response, except perhaps in a very narrow way which wasn’t the way I was taking it.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Calm

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Where have latter-day prophets said that the iron rod includes teachings outside of the scriptures or the church?

The iron rod is the "word of God" aka "truth".   We are taught to seek out truth (the iron rod) from all sources within and without the church.  The prophets have stated that not only does it include the scriptures, but it includes all of the other inspired writings from every nation mentioned in 2 Nephi 29; it also includes the words of the prophets - God's word for the church as a whole.  Other sources for the word of God mentioned by the prophets is personal revelation. 

  https://www.ldsliving.com/when-3-apostles-past-and-present-gave-3-interpretations-of-the-iron-rod-within-3-months/s/92244

All inspired teachings from all sources are the iron rod, or word of God.   The iron rod is found in the seeds.   It is only known via planting and trying the word.  

2 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Are you serious? Haven’t you been arguing that we should set aside teachings in the scriptures if we don’t think they bear fruit (aka don’t believe them)?

You are all over the place, changing the subject again.  I give up. 

Edited March 20, 2023 by pogi

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, pogi said:

You are all over the place, changing the subject again. 

I find this difficult too.  Grug, you broaden and narrow what is being discussed without foundation, one reason I want to see in writing the parameters you are using for a particular comment if you are expecting a response to it.  I am not going to call it shifting goal posts because I don’t believe that is what you are doing, but it often leads to the same result, you talking about something different than what you said that I responded to.

[Dario_M]

Oh my oh my.

Btw i must say that this Adam & God topic is getting a hot topic though. I saw 8k views. That is a lot. 

Edited March 20, 2023 by Dario_M

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I don’t understand what you are asking. Please clarify. 

I think I'm seeing a pattern here

 

You said that “the scriptures don’t give us a clear answer on Adam-God one way or the other,” and that “true teachings of God are not going to contradict the word of God in the scriptures.”

Posted February 17 You provided evidence that Joseph Smith may have taught AGT. After a good deal of discussion, what is your view or interpretation of this evidence – do you think he may have?

What does your answer to that question mean (asked another way, what are the implications of your answer to that question) in terms of your statements about scripture?

You may have multiple answers; don't hold back!

[Grug the Neanderthal]

22 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think I'm seeing a pattern here

So am I. Lots of people trying their best to catch in my words. 

23 minutes ago, CV75 said:

After a good deal of discussion, what is your view or interpretation of this evidence – do you think he may have?

Yes I believe that he may have taught Adam-God and likely did teach some version of it, which may or may not have been exactly the same as what Brigham Young taught. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

You are all over the place, changing the subject again. 

I’m the one constantly changing the subject? Surely you can’t be serious. 

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I give up. 

So would I if I didn’t have an answer. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

you talking about something different than what you said that I responded to.

Such as?

[Tacenda]

11 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

So am I. Lots of people trying their best to catch in my words. 

Yes I believe that he may have taught Adam-God and likely did teach some version of it, which may or may not have been exactly the same as what Brigham Young taught. 

I'd say you're right, and he may have concluded it because it made sense to him. 

[Calm]

45 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Lots of people trying their best to catch in my words. 

Is this what you do to others because I can’t understand why you think I or CV are doing it to you.  Both of us are very interested in figuring out how others think.  CV may have additional interests; but me, I just like exploring different ways of thinking.  I don’t need someone to agree with me or to debate, I do prefer mutual respect and effort (if someone wants me to respond to a question, they should show a willingness to respond to my questions first, for example, just as I should not ignore a prior question if I am asking one).
 

I am not looking for a right or wrong answer, so how could I catch you in anything?  I am trying to understand the unspoken assumptions you attach to your comments (everyone does this), what you assume doesn’t need to be explained or something you don’t even think about usually, ideas as natural as breathing air.

It takes too much effort to try and trap someone.  It was never satisfying either since it never happened like I would imagine.  Much easier and more fun to just go with the flow and disassemble it to see what’s inside.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Calm

[Grug the Neanderthal]

56 minutes ago, Calm said:

Is this what you do to others because I can’t understand why you think I or CV are doing it to you.  Both of us are very interested in figuring out how others think.  CV may have additional interests; but me, I just like exploring different ways of thinking.  I don’t need someone to agree with me or to debate, I do prefer mutual respect and effort (if someone wants me to respond to a question, they should show a willingness to respond to my questions first, for example, just as I should not ignore a prior question if I am asking one).
 

I am not looking for a right or wrong answer, so how could I catch you in anything?  I am trying to understand the unspoken assumptions you attach to your comments (everyone does this), what you assume doesn’t need to be explained or something you don’t even think about usually, ideas as natural as breathing air.

It takes too much effort to try and trap someone.  It was never satisfying either since it never happened like I would imagine.  Much easier and more fun to just go with the flow and disassemble it to see what’s inside.

Calm, here’s the deal. There are several poster on this board who regularly try to catch me in my words. I answer a question and then someone will twist my words or make a zinger to try and undermine whatever it is I’m saying and try to make me look bad. On multiple occasions you have upvoted comments were people have done this to me or made a follow up comment supporting them in this endeavor. 

And while you usually stay on the sidelines and don’t directly address me, you like to jump in from time to time and ask questions to try and get me to say something that you or others can use to undermine my position. This is what I believe is obviously again going on here.

In any event, you got your answer. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

ask questions to try and get me to say something that you or others can use to undermine my position. This is what I believe is obviously again going on here.

In other words you prefer to think I am a liar rather than honest about my motivation.🤷‍♀️  Not much I can do about that.  Doesn’t make much sense though, as far as I can see.  I don’t understand why you would hang around if you thought most here are out to get you.  Why are you here and why do you stay if you see us like that?

What makes sense is I upvote comments because I don’t read them the same way you do.  I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, don’t try to read between the lines as I am an crap mind reader and I just get embarrassed if I try, and if they say something I find thought provoking or want to explore or even if it just triggers a random thought I like that has little to do with the conversation, I might upvote them. I run out of upvotes every day and I have around 50 iirc, so my standards are pretty low, lol.  I don’t tend to upvote people who act like they don’t like being here or at least not the people they are associating with.

I don’t like mind games or manipulation and it would be very unlikely I would upvote a post if I read it like that.  I do love witty sarcasm.  Probably too much for my own good.  Absurdity is even better.  My family can be very sarcastic, so it doesn’t automatically read as nasty or a put down to me.  It is an art form in my view.   I try not to go there online because too often it gets misunderstood, but I enjoy seeing it if intelligent.

From the very beginning you seem to understand my posts and behaviour in ways I never mean them.  Why would I keep trying to tell you I don’t think that way if I was really like that person?  What good does that do for me?  Why don’t you consider you might be wrong about me?  Maybe start looking at my posts as not leading to a gotcha and instead sincerely trying to understand someone who doesn’t think like I do…which is great.  How boring the world would be if everyone thought like me.  Peaceful and cheerful perhaps, tidy and well organized and very talkative, but boring.  I like variety.  But it gets boring quickly to be told I don’t really mean what I mean.  I tend to trust myself most in that department for some odd reason.

And maybe I am naive about many other people and give them too much benefit of the doubt and so here I upvote something that if I understood correctly I wouldn’t, but maybe other posters here aren’t that much into mind games either.  Are you?  Serious question, not a gotcha. There was one person I loved who used mind games in more positive ways, not to control, but to teach….I really didn’t like it when he did that to me and none of the rest of my family liked it either though we get together and laugh about it now he is gone. He was quite the straight arrow in other ways.  If you aren’t someone who uses twists, etc to get people out of their box or to control or harm them, why do you think you believe (at least seem to) so many others are?  I get people expecting others to behave like they do, but thinking the worst about others when trying to be compassionate and Christlike…that I don’t understand, but perhaps your experience has made you ultra cautious.  

But seriously, I think for the most part most of us here just like to talk about different ideas about the Church or other faith traditions and since most of us will never meet in real life, why not just say what we think?  I am guessing that is what you are doing.  It is what I expect from almost all posters, though on occasion we get trolls who seem entertained by trying to see how weird they can be before someone calls BS and watching the reactions.   strange way to get entertainment.

It is hard to find these kinds of conversations in offline life, so I see this board as a real treasure. I like that positive view of the Board and I am going to keep it, I like it so much. I like liking my fellow posters and thinking of them as friends and I enjoy posting more thinking that way rather than being on guard against someone trying to catch me out.  Too much work, too boring, too much frustration and anger, no energized feeling at the end of the day looking back revisiting conversations I have had.  

But feel free to continue to distrust me and think I pretend to be this way for fun and power (I can do a maniacal laugh if you really want) even if it’s a total waste of energy and effort. (Seriously, what an idiot I would be if this post was fake; there is a show I am in the middle of that I am really liking I could be passing time with.). You might have more fun if you stopped suspecting people of ulterior motives though.  Or might find some of our ideas interesting to think about as possibilities to explore even if you don’t choose to believe them, like playing with an alternate universe.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Calm

[Grug the Neanderthal]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

In other words you prefer to think I am a liar rather than honest about my motivation.🤷‍♀️  Not much I can do about that.  Doesn’t make much sense though, as far as I can see.  I don’t understand why you would hang around if you thought most here are out to get you.  Why are you here and why do you stay if you see us like that?

What makes sense is I upvote comments because I don’t read them the same way you do.  I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, don’t try to read between the lines as I am an crap mind reader and I just get embarrassed if I try, and if they say something I find thought provoking or want to explore or even if it just triggers a random thought I like that has little to do with the conversation, I might upvote them. I run out of upvotes every day and I have around 50 iirc, so my standards are pretty low, lol.  I don’t tend to upvote people who act like they don’t like being here or at least not the people they are associating with.

I don’t like mind games or manipulation and it would be very unlikely I would upvote a post if I read it like that.  I do love witty sarcasm.  Probably too much for my own good.  Absurdity is even better.  My family can be very sarcastic, so it doesn’t automatically read as nasty or a put down to me.  It is an art form in my view.   I try not to go there online because too often it gets misunderstood, but I enjoy seeing it if intelligent.

From the very beginning you seem to understand my posts and behaviour in ways I never mean them.  Why would I keep trying to tell you I don’t think that way if I was really like that person?  What good does that do for me?  Why don’t you consider you might be wrong about me?  Maybe start looking at my posts as not leading to a gotcha and instead sincerely trying to understand someone who doesn’t think like I do…which is great.  How boring the world would be if everyone thought like me.  Peaceful and cheerful perhaps, tidy and well organized and very talkative, but boring.  I like variety.  But it gets boring quickly to be told I don’t really mean what I mean.  I tend to trust myself most in that department for some odd reason.

And maybe I am naive about many other people and give them too much benefit of the doubt and so here I upvote something that if I understood correctly I wouldn’t, but maybe other posters here aren’t that much into mind games either.  Are you?  Serious question, not a gotcha. There was one person I loved who used mind games in more positive ways, not to control, but to teach….I really didn’t like it when he did that to me and none of the rest of my family liked it either though we get together and laugh about it now he is gone. He was quite the straight arrow in other ways.  If you aren’t someone who uses twists, etc to get people out of their box or to control or harm them, why do you think you believe (at least seem to) so many others are?  I get people expecting others to behave like they do, but thinking the worst about others when trying to be compassionate and Christlike…that I don’t understand, but perhaps your experience has made you ultra cautious.  

But seriously, I think for the most part most of us here just like to talk about different ideas about the Church or other faith traditions and since most of us will never meet in real life, why not just say what we think?  I am guessing that is what you are doing.  It is what I expect from almost all posters, though on occasion we get trolls who seem entertained by trying to see how weird they can be before someone calls BS and watching the reactions.   strange way to get entertainment.

It is hard to find these kinds of conversations in offline life, so I see this board as a real treasure. I like that positive view of the Board and I am going to keep it, I like it so much. I like liking my fellow posters and thinking of them as friends and I enjoy posting more thinking that way rather than being on guard against someone trying to catch me out.  Too much work, too boring, too much frustration and anger, no energized feeling at the end of the day looking back revisiting conversations I have had.  

But feel free to continue to distrust me and think I pretend to be this way for fun and power (I can do a maniacal laugh if you really want) even if it’s a total waste of energy and effort. (Seriously, what an idiot I would be if this post was fake; there is a show I am in the middle of that I am really liking I could be passing time with.). You might have more fun if you stopped suspecting people of ulterior motives though.  Or might find some of our ideas interesting to think about as possibilities to explore even if you don’t choose to believe them, like playing with an alternate universe.

I never said that you are lying or intentionally playing mind games. I think you’re probably not fully aware what it is your doing. 

In any event. I have to call it like I see it.