Did Joseph Smith teach Adam-God?

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I never said that you are lying or intentionally playing mind games. I think you’re probably not fully aware what it is your doing. 

In any event. I have to call it like I see it. 

Why are you here then if so many are twisting your words, trying to play gotcha, etc?  Serious question.  To me that would not be interesting, it would be a waste of time, so I am curious why you are choosing to spend so much time (you seem to be on the board as much as I am…which is remarkable).

Edited March 21, 2023 by Calm

[InCognitus]

17 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I never said that you are lying or intentionally playing mind games. I think you’re probably not fully aware what it is your doing. 

In any event. I have to call it like I see it. 

I recommend that you take a couple of hours and read through a few months history of Calm's prior posts before you finish your "call".  Having seen Calm's activity on this board for the past few years I find your accusations of her playing "mind games" and trying to "entrap" you and "bait" you to be laughable.  I've never seen her do anything that comes remotely close to that, and in fact it has been always quite the opposite.  The record stands in evidence against your "call".  Read the evidence for yourself.  It's not in her nature to do such a thing.

[MustardSeed]

Calm is not a game player in any way. 

Edited March 21, 2023 by MustardSeed

[Grug the Neanderthal]

56 minutes ago, Calm said:

Why are you here then if so many are twisting your words, trying to play gotcha, etc?  Serious question.

I was hoping for some genuine civil conversation, but unfortunately that hasn’t really materialized in the way I had hoped for.  

While some people have been civil and open to genuine discussion, quite a few people have consistently assumed the worst about me from the moment I arrived here, lashed out, made personal attacks and false accusations, twisted my words, tried to bait me with insincere questions, used straw man arguments against me, cheered on those who do and booed me from the sidelines. It seems that certain views aren’t welcome here and that people are upset that I’m disturbing the echo chamber and this is their way of expressing this. 

I’m sure that it would make most of you happy if I just left, so you don’t have to have your echo chamber disturbed any longer. But I suspect that there is a largely silent group of readers on this board who appreciate me sharing my views, but are too afraid to engage because they don’t want to face the backlash that I regularly receive. 

So I may stick around a bit for them and the individuals who are willing to be civil and engage in genuine discussion.
 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[Grug the Neanderthal]

32 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

I recommend that you take a couple of hours and read through a few months history of Calm's prior posts before you finish your "call".  Having seen Calm's activity on this board for the past few years I find your accusations of her playing "mind games" and trying to "entrap" you and "bait" you to be laughable.  I've never seen her do anything that comes remotely close to that, and in fact it has been always quite the opposite.  The record stands in evidence against your "call".  Read the evidence for yourself.  It's not in her nature to do such a thing.

I never accused her of intentionally playing any mind games, but I will stand by my assessment that some of the questions she has directed at me are not intended to better understand my views, but rather to expose what she believes are flaws in my view or to help support others who are trying to do this. 

Again, I don’t think she even fully realizes that this is what she’s doing. I think she’s just going with the flow and acting in a way that is common and considered acceptable on this board. 

[InCognitus]

15 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I never accused her of intentionally playing any mind games, but I will stand by my assessment that some of the questions she has directed at me are not intended to better understand my views, but rather to expose what she believes are flaws in my view or to help support others who are trying to do this. 

Again, I don’t think she even fully realizes that this is what she’s doing. I think she’s just going with the flow and acting in a way that is common and considered acceptable on this board. 

Sorry, I take her at her word.  And if she doesn't "realize" that she's doing it, how can it be what you think she's doing?

Edited March 21, 2023 by InCognitus

[Grug the Neanderthal]

41 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

I take her at her word.

Actions speak louder than words.

41 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

And if she doesn't "realize" that she's doing it, how can it be what you think she's doing?

As I said,  I don’t think she even fully realizes that this is what she’s doing. I think she’s just going with the flow and acting in a way that is common and considered acceptable on this board. 

But that doesn’t make it right. I suspect that since what she is doing is normal here, and actually considerably milder than what others do, most won’t recognize it. She’s also the old friend and I’m the outsider, and birds of a feather flock together. 

[InCognitus]

12 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Actions speak louder than words.

Exactly my point, except all we have are "words".  Read her history.  You'll figure it out.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

2 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Exactly my point, except all we have are "words".  Read her history.  You'll figure it out.

I don’t need to read her history. I know the actions I have observed with my own two eyes. She’s upvoted and supported quite a few posts from people that were openly hostile towards me and has asked me several questions which were clearly designed to undermine my views, not seek to better understand them. 

I don’t held any malice towards a Calm. Like I said, I don’t think she is fully aware of she was doing. She’s just going with the flow and following standard operating procedure on this board. But I will call it like I see it. 

[InCognitus]

4 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I don’t need to read her history.

I know, you've already made your "call".  So why waste your time looking at her character history when you've already made up your mind?

[Calm]

31 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Actions speak louder than words.

Ah…what actions have you seen here besides words?

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I don’t think she even fully realizes that this is what she’s doing.

Yes, so much better to be a clueless manipulative **** than a self aware one, lol.

Yes, I know that is not what you said, it’s what you have been implying though.  If you wish to debate that, shall I just tell you that you don’t fully realize this is what you are doing?  Does that work for you?  It doesn’t for me, so my guess is it won’t for you.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Calm

[Grug the Neanderthal]

Just now, InCognitus said:

I know, you've already made your "call".  So why waste your time looking at her character history when you've already made up your mind?

I haven’t said anything against her character. All I’ve done is pointed out actions I have observed with my own two eyes. 

But if you think I’m out to lunch, please go back and look at her recent history for a couple of hours and see for yourself where she has upvoted and supported comments that were clearly hostile towards me. And take a look at some of the questions she posed me in the context of the conversation and see if any of them appear to be trying to undermine what my views as opposed to trying to understand them. The facts are on my side. 

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

see if any of them appear to be trying to undermine what my views

You are a total stranger to me and the others on this board.  As far as I know you are a 16 year old with pimples in his parents’ basement.  It is meaningless to take you down in any way.  Why in the world would I care about undermining you?  What is my reward?

Edited March 21, 2023 by Calm

[Grug the Neanderthal]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Ah…what actions have you seen here besides words?

Upvoting posts and supporting posts that were clearly hostile towards me and asking questions in conversations that were clearly intended to undermine my views instead of understanding them better. 

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Yes, so much better to be a clueless manipulative **** than a self aware one, lol.

Yes, I know that is not what you said, it’s what you have been implying though.  If you wish to debate that, shall I just tell you that you don’t fully realize this is what you are doing? 

Say whatever you want about me. I’ve already been falsely accused of being misogynist, and not loving and respecting my wife, among other things so I can take another false accusation. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Why in the world would I care about undermining you?  What is my reward?

Supporting your friends and validating your views and the views of your friends.

[InCognitus]

Just now, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I haven’t said anything against her character. All I’ve done is pointed out actions I have observed with my own two eyes. 

But you are talking about her character if she is, as you "call" it, trying to bait you, entrap you, and is playing mind games with you.  She says she's not doing that.  I believe her, as I understand her line of questioning.  You are either accusing her of dishonesty or questioning her mental state (if she doesn't realize that she's entrapping or baiting you then how can it be entrapment or baiting?  That's just silly).

1 minute ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

But if you think I’m out to lunch, please go back and look at her recent history for a couple of hours and see for yourself where she has upvoted and supported comments that were clearly hostile towards me.

Are you talking about posts that disagree with your point of view?  Or true hostility toward you?   Can you please provide an example?

1 minute ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

And take a look at some of the questions she posed me in the context of the conversation and see if any of them appear to be trying to undermine what my views as opposed to trying to understand them.

Joseph Smith said, “By proving contraries, truth is made manifest.”  Sometimes we need to ask hard questions to understand the truth, even if the questions seem to undermine our views.  That goes for all of us. 

My mind works that way.  I have learned many things about the beliefs of others and have gained insights into truths from the scriptures that I would have never come to on my own without asking questions that I think undermine the other person's views.  But I do that in all honesty with the intent to understand their point of view.  Quit thinking of this as winning or losing an argument.  Think of it as an honest enquiry of truth.  You have nothing to fear from her questions if you love the truth.

[Dario_M]

2 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I don’t need to read her history. I know the actions I have observed with my own two eyes. She’s upvoted and supported quite a few posts from people that were openly hostile towards me and has asked me several questions which were clearly designed to undermine my views, not seek to better understand them. 

I don’t held any malice towards a Calm. Like I said, I don’t think she is fully aware of she was doing. She’s just going with the flow and following standard operating procedure on this board. But I will call it like I see it. 

Calm can upvote any post she wants. Who are you to determine that for her anyway?? Or calling her out for that?

Neanderthal !

Edited March 21, 2023 by Dario_M

[Grug the Neanderthal]

5 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Joseph Smith said, “By proving contraries, truth is made manifest.”  Sometimes we need to ask hard questions to understand the truth, even if the questions seem to undermine our views.  That goes for all of us. 

My mind works that way.  I have learned many things about the beliefs of others and have gained insights into truths from the scriptures that I would have never come to on my own without asking questions that I think undermine the other person's views.  But I do that in all honesty with the intent to understand their point of view.  Quit thinking of this as winning or losing an argument.  Think of it as an honest enquiry of truth.  You have nothing to fear from her questions if you love the truth.

I agree that we need to be able to answer hard questions that challenge our views and that we have nothing to fear if we love the truth. I am not afraid of questions that are intended to challenge or undermine my views. I answer pretty much every question I’m posed, including the recent question from Calm.

But sometimes it’s unwise to give a candid answer to a somewhat off topic question designed to undermine a view when experience has shown that individuals will jump in and twist my words and try to use them against me. 

Sometimes it’s better to initially respond with a tough question of my own to get the person who posed the question to think about what it is they are asking and why.
 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[Grug the Neanderthal]

5 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Are you talking about posts that disagree with your point of view?  Or true hostility toward you?   Can you please provide an example?

Hostile. 

Calm was one of 14 individuals who upvoted this aggressive and hostile post in which another poster had twisted my words and employed a straw man argument against me. The fact that she was one of 14 individuals who did this supports my point that she is only doing what is a common practice on this board. 

Too be fair Calm does this far less frequently than other posters do. Like I said, I hold no malice towards her. I don't believe that she is lying or playing mind games. I believe she's just going with the flow and doing what is considered acceptable around here. 

But let's drop this. There's no point in arguing about differences in perception. 

 

[CV75]

13 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

So am I. Lots of people trying their best to catch in my words. 

Yes I believe that he may have taught Adam-God and likely did teach some version of it, which may or may not have been exactly the same as what Brigham Young taught. 

The second question is where the interesting discussion is (for me), but you left it unanswered. If you think I'm trying to catch you in your words, never mind.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

4 minutes ago, CV75 said:

The second question is where the interesting discussion is (for me), but you left it unanswered. If you think I'm trying to catch you in your words, never mind.

The scriptures speak of mysteries of God that only those who are diligent and spiritually mature enough can understand. According to Brigham Young, Adam-God is one of the mysteries of God that is puzzling to many. Joseph Smith also spoke of not being able to say all he knew about truths or mysteries because the people were not prepared to receive them. If Adam-God is true, then I believe that it is one of the mysteries spoken of in the scriptures. 

[Dario_M]

36 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Hostile. 

Calm was one of 14 individuals who upvoted this aggressive and hostile post in which another poster had twisted my words and employed a straw man argument against me. The fact that she was one of 14 individuals who did this supports my point that she is only doing what is a common practice on this board. 

Too be fair Calm does this far less frequently than other posters do. Like I said, I hold no malice towards her. I don't believe that she is lying or playing mind games. I believe she's just going with the flow and doing what is considered acceptable around here. 

But let's drop this. There's no point in arguing about differences in perception. 

 

Well...we don't care (at least i don't care anyway, maybe others here)

But can you maybe also stop speaking so negativaly about a forum member so publicy like on this way or so? I doesn't suite you at all. 

...wel.. actually it does in a way.

You also go horibly offtopic with these kind of nonsens. 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Dario_M

[manol]

3 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

The scriptures speak of mysteries of God... 

Yes they do.  And ime one does not find the light by focusing on and mucking about in the darkness. 

4 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

But let's drop this. There's no point in arguing about differences in perception.

Good call!

A person can tune their "radio" to a "station" that does not interpreting incoming signals as attack and broadcast accordingly.  With sustained deliberate conscientious effort a person can tune their radio to the Pure Love of Christ, and along the way may find their perception shifting such that things which were mysteries more easily come into focus. 

Edited March 21, 2023 by manol

[Stormin' Mormon]

12 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I was hoping for some genuine civil conversation, but unfortunately that hasn’t really materialized in the way I had hoped for.  

10 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I don’t need to read her history. I know the actions I have observed with my own two eyes. She’s upvoted and supported quite a few posts from people that were openly hostile towards me and has asked me several questions which were clearly designed to undermine my views, not seek to better understand them. 

I don’t held any malice towards a Calm. Like I said, I don’t think she is fully aware of she was doing. She’s just going with the flow and following standard operating procedure on this board. But I will call it like I see it. 

You don't get to genuine civil conversation by refusing to understand the community you are engaging with, impugning base motivations onto others, or by being patronizing and condescending.  Perhaps there's a reason you haven't found the civil conversation you were hoping for here.  

Up until now I've been an observer of the Grug-Calm spat, but dude, you came out swinging ever since you first arrived on the board.  When you encounter one jerk, you have simply encountered a jerk.  If you encounter jerks all day, maybe some introspection is in order.