Did Joseph Smith teach Adam-God?

[pogi]

25 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

That would get him either disfellowshipped or excommunicated from the church. 

So would unrepentant and unapologetic sexual promiscuity.   A loving committed relationship and civil marriage is a spiritual step up from that.  Not to mention happiness/well-being.

Edited March 15, 2023 by pogi

[Grug the Neanderthal]

13 minutes ago, pogi said:

So would unrepentant and unapologetic sexual promiscuity.   A loving committed relationship and civil marriage is a spiritual step up from that.

I’m not so sure that it is. I think it might actually be worse, because it would be much easier to justify the sin, which will make it much less likely to recognize that one is doing anything wrong. There will be less motivation to fully and completely repentant. The sin needs to be forsaken completely. 

[pogi]

24 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I’m not so sure that it is. I think it might actually be worse, because it would be much easier to justify the sin, which will make it much less likely to recognize that one is doing anything wrong. There will be less motivation to fully and completely repentant. The sin needs to be forsaken completely. 

Yes, let’s promote gay promiscuity over a committed relationship, that makes sense!   
 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

18 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yes, let’s promote gay promiscuity over a committed relationship, that makes sense!   
 

Let’s encourage a recently baptized member who struggles with same-sex attraction and has committed at least a hundred homosexual acts to enter into another homosexual relationship instead of forsaking his sin as he covenanted to do at baptism, that makes perfect sense!

[pogi]

40 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Let’s encourage a recently baptized member who struggles with same-sex attraction and has committed at least a hundred homosexual acts to enter into another homosexual relationship instead of forsaking his sin as he covenanted to do at baptism, that makes perfect sense!

Let’s get real Neanderthal.  He lied during the baptismal interview about chastity and has no intention to ever obey, so I kind of doubt his covenants are, or ever were in effect.  If he was honest with the bishop about that, and his current behavior he’d be ex’ed.   He is not giving up sex. Call me a doubter or a faithless soul, but it ain't happening.  

For gay people who have zero intention of living a celibate life, I strongly recommend living the law of chastity in every other way.  That’s what I’d encourage of my own son.  it will bring greater happiness/well-being and will avoid the terrible consequences of infectious disease associated with such behaviors.  

Edited March 15, 2023 by pogi

[Grug the Neanderthal]

11 minutes ago, pogi said:

Let’s get real Neanderthal.  He lied during the baptismal interview about chastity and has no intention to ever obey, so I kind of doubt his covenants are, or ever were in effect.  If he was honest with the bishop about that, and his current behavior he’d be ex’ed.   He is not giving up sex. Call me a doubter or a faithless soul, but it ain't happening.  

We’ll call me naive, but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt that he was at least somewhat sincere when he was baptized and intended to refrain from homosexual acts and other forms of immorality. I think he needs our support and encouragement to keep his covenant. 

But if he was lying and had no intention of living the law of chastity, then I think it would better for him to hit rock bottom and come to a realization of the severity of what he’s doing and then come unto Christ with full purpose of heart. 

The following scripture comes to mind:

7 And now, my son, I would to God that ye had not been guilty of so great a crime. I would not dwell upon your crimes, to harrow up your soul, if it were not for your good.
8 But behold, ye cannot hide your crimes from God; and except ye repent they will stand as a testimony against you at the last day.
9 Now my son, I would that ye should repent and forsake your sins, and go no more after the lusts of your eyes, but cross yourself in all these things; for except ye do this ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. Oh, remember, and take it upon you, and cross yourself in these things. (Alma 39)

30 O my son, I desire that ye should deny the justice of God no more. Do not endeavor to excuse yourself in the least point because of your sins, by denying the justice of God; but do you let the justice of God, and his mercy, and his long-suffering have full sway in your heart; and let it bring you down to the dust in humility. (Alma 42)

 

[pogi]

8 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

We’ll call me naive

Ok

8 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

But if he was lying and had no intention of living the law of chastity, then I think it would better for him to hit rock bottom and come to a realization of the severity of what he’s doing and then come unto Christ with full purpose of heart. 

Not only is this naive, but I also find it terribly disturbing.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

I also find it terribly disturbing.

Did you even read the verses I quoted?

The only way out is to forsake the sin completely, not to continue in this sin in a way that is easier to justify. He needs the humility to fully repent and come unto Christ with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. It would be great if this can be achieved without hitting rock bottom first, but if that’s what it takes, then that’s what it takes. 

I find it disturbing that you find this disturbing.

But then I again, you’ve shown over and over again that you just want to argue and try to make me look bad, so I’ll wait for your next "zinger" I guess. 

[Dario_M]

7 hours ago, pogi said:

Have you considered civil marriage? 

Yes but that is also bad in the eyes of the church. 

I rather wanna keep it with on night stands. Less complicated and nobody of my ward would ever find out. And offcourse i would never talk about this with any living soul of my ward...you know...speaking about breaking the law of chastity i mean. That' not wisse isn't it? Some of them allready know that i'm gay though. But....they think that i'm inactive. Wich i'm not. 

Oh my.... i'm going so offtopic again. 😇

Edited March 15, 2023 by Dario_M

[Dario_M]

6 hours ago, pogi said:

.  it will bring greater happiness/well-being and will avoid the terrible consequences of infectious disease associated with such behaviors.  

I do it always save!! 

But you are right. If i think about it right now... maybe i should considder civil marriage. In the eyes of God it's better then what i'm doing right now. But i just...i don't know.. 😞

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Dario_M said:

I do it always save!! 

But you are right. If i think about it right now... maybe i should considder civil marriage. In the eyes of God it's better then what i'm doing right now. But i just...i don't know.. 😞

I think you'd be much happier if you found the love of your life who will be there for you always and that you could build a life with. 

[Dario_M]

30 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I think you'd be much happier if you found the love of your life who will be there for you always and that you could build a life with. 

Yeah. I'm just comming from a really bad 9 year old relationship. That's the thing.

I dont wanna jump into the next crazy man.

At least in the church the man looks decent save and reliable. But outside the church ...out there in the angry evil world there are a lot of rotten people (man). And i don't wanna jump into a marriage that will goes as bad and ends up the same tragic way as my previous relationship went. I don't think i can indure something like that for a second time in my life. It will completely destroy me. 😞 Wich the relationship with my ex allready did with me a bit. 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Dario_M

[Grug the Neanderthal]

On 3/14/2023 at 6:54 AM, MustardSeed said:

I personally don’t think that the church will ever change his stance on homosexuals being sealed in the temple. My heart hurts for the impact of that reality on specifically one of my family members who is a teenager who is serving a mission and is very faithful and is also never going to be sealed to a woman. At least I hope he’s not.  At any rate, I love him with my whole heart. 

Why wouldn’t you want your family member to overcome his unnatural attraction and find happiness in a marriage to a woman? 

[MustardSeed]

16 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Why wouldn’t you want your family member to overcome his unnatural attraction and find happiness in a marriage to a woman? 

Deep deep breath here for me…. 

what you have just said breaks my heart.

Thanks for your concern. 

Edited March 15, 2023 by MustardSeed

[Grug the Neanderthal]

5 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

what you have just said breaks my heart.

Why?

[california boy]

23 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Thank you i know this and believe me.!! If gay marriages where allowed in the LDS church and temple. 🥳 I would receive the priesterhood this week, then i would do everything the church would ask from me. I would serve everyone the sacrament on sunday and i would go to the temple to baptize people that have past. I would receive the second priesterhood. And after that i would do my persenal best to get to the temple and get worty enough so that i may receive the endowmend. After the endowmend i would wear my garments everyday everynight when it is winter when it is summer. I don't care...i would wear it. And i would finaly follow the law of chastity. 

And why would i do all of those ordinances??? And be sirri with the law of chastity??? Because i would finaly have HOPE again. I finaly FINALY would have the hope that i will met a nice Mormon man one day. (There are gay man in my ward btw. I know this) And after i have find a nice Mormon man we would marry in the temple exactly how God have wanted it for me.💗 It would be the best day of my life. Me and my husband would be togheter forever. I will finaly be save secure and receive plenty of love from my husband. He would teach me more about the gospel. My husband will take care of me. My life will change. And that's all worth it for me. The endowmend, everything! Because i would finaly have hope again. Hope that my life will change in a positive way. Wearing garments everyday would not be a problem for me anymore at all. 

But this will never happen. This is just me fantasizing. The church would never allow this kind of thinks. So there is no hope for me that this will became true on day. I don't even wanna hope for that. Because hope is a dangerous thing for me. 😔😞💀

So thank you, but for now i only wanna receive the priesterhood (without any hurry) and for the rest i just wanna do what i want. And absolutely don't wanna follow the law of chastity. For the rest i follow all the other commitments though. And i need to except that...the world is just how it is. 

Don't worry what Church leaders and others feel about who you should be with in this life.  Find that man that you can love and hold dear to.  Share a wonderful life with him.  Grow and progress together.  Share each others burdens.  Experience love and joy.

I would rather spend eternity in hell and be with the person I love than be in heaven married to a woman. It isn't even a hard choice.   Besides, all the gays will be down there, and we will make it fabulous.  We will have a community of love and caring for each other.  Doesn't that sound more like heaven than being married to a woman for eternity?  I couldn't even do it for a lifetime here on earth.  

[MustardSeed]

49 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Why?

*
Grug this is the last I will share on this.  
Your black and white world view is the same all -right /all-wrong attitude that other people who are rigid have had have done (and no doubt will do ) harm to the child I love. He has been beaten. He has been scorned. He has been abused. And he holds his head high and just continues to take it. The abuse he has received has been all about his sexuality and that people don’t think he should be what he is. Your comments are a reflection of this attitude, and every time I think of him, my heart is broken and swells in love for him and who I know he is. 
he is serving a mission for God right now. He loves God. When he comes home, he will have to contend with his sexuality. He is pure, innocent, and he is gay.
You cannot shame the gay out of anybody. scientifically it has been proven impossible. The church knows this. I know this. It is illegal in the world of therapy to try to get somebody to stop being gay. It would be completely unethical to encourage him to convince a girl to marry him under false pretenses. I would hazard a guess that most girls who desire to marry in the temple also desire to marry somebody who could promise them a lifetime of whole hearted love. A girl is not gonna get that from a gay boy. 

you’re asking why what you have stated is hurtful. I will do my best to explain it here. There are some things that are so delicate that stating them socially in the bold manner that you have comes across as wildly insensitive. I believe that you feel you are coming across as the prophet on the wall, back to by God and scripture. *** I can appreciate your desire to do good, and to live the gospel and inspire others to do the same.*** thank you for wanting happiness for me and my for my life and for my family. 
 

that said, you need to know, that if any human being approached me at church in person, and said to me what you just said, I might very well turn around and never return to church. Fortunately, I have been a member all my life and have a thick skin, and I understand that sometimes people are limited by a lack of social skill, (sometimes even organically due to autism). I also recognize that cutting my own nose off to spite my face does not serve me well.

 

I’m going to create a comparison. What you just said to me, is sort of like if I don’t have any children, because I have endometriosis and you, a basic stranger, has approached me to my face and said hey. You don’t have any kids. And why not? Oh, you can’t have kids, Why aren’t you adopting? It says in the Scriptures that you’re supposed to have kids.
 

as if I haven’t contemplated the realities of being childless. As if I haven’t contemplated adopting 1 million times. As if I haven’t been in relief society for 30 Mother’s Day holidays. As if I can control my own fertility. As if I’m not good enough, the way I was created.

it’s not a perfect comparison, but you asked me why you hurt my feelings. I love my family member. He did not choose his homosexuality. He he has been through hell and back with police charges of brutality against those who have beat the living tar out of him. He is serving the Lord today and has five more months at that point, he will leave his cocoon of safety, and he will have to navigate the world again. He is a sweet boy and I love him with all of my heart and I never want him to marry a woman- I would not want that for her. I don’t want that for him. You stating such an antiquated attitude to me, reflects an undercurrent that exists that threatens to do him more harm.

so that you are aware, I am not interested in sharing further, because I do not believe anything I say will influence you in any different direction. I don’t choose to change you. I want no back-and-forth with you. You are fixed in your views of patriarchy and intolerance, and in your primary views of the gospel of Jesus Christ.  I absolutely trust that you have the best of intentions. I believe you are limited in your views and I think your approach is atrocious. I do not think you are here to expand your thoughts. I think you are here to assert your knowledge, and to convert others. I am here to learn, to share, to grow, and today I’m weary.  I’m going to send a letter to my gay missionary and tell him how much I love him.  

Edited March 15, 2023 by MustardSeed

[Dario_M]

I think that Grug the Neanderthal is living up to his virtual name. 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Dario_M

[Tacenda]

15 hours ago, pogi said:

So would unrepentant and unapologetic sexual promiscuity.   A loving committed relationship and civil marriage is a spiritual step up from that.  Not to mention happiness/well-being.

So he's stuck? Either have different partners (unsafe) or have one partner for life (marriage) and get ex'd? I guess it could be married in spirit and have just one partner...too bad polygamy you have several partners. How safe (mentally and physically) was that? My advice to our friend Dario is to find the one permanent partner and hopefully cherish that. 

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

So he's stuck? Either have different partners (unsafe) or have one partner for life (marriage) and get ex'd? I guess it could be married in spirit and have just one partner...too bad polygamy you have several partners. How safe (mentally and physically) was that? My advice to our friend Dario is to find the one permanent partner and hopefully cherish that. 

If he continues to have different partners he should be ex'd too.  Just the same as if I had different partners.

Chastity is not optional.

[MustardSeed]

Just now, JLHPROF said:

If he continues to have different partners he should be ex'd too.  Just the same as if I had different partners.

Chastity is not optional.

Hello …. he’s a person …. He can hear you, and he’s trying to figure it out 

[pogi]

38 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

So he's stuck? Either have different partners (unsafe) or have one partner for life (marriage) and get ex'd?

The way I see it, he could get ex'd for either one of those.  Having a committed relationship is spiritually better, more emotionally/socially rewarding, and less dangerous than promiscuity, but harder to keep secret.  I personally think honesty is always the best policy.  I am not a fan of secrecy and hiding things to maintain membership.  I don't think it is wise to avoid happiness/well-being in order to maintain superficial membership in a church that one is not fully committed to anyway. 

38 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

My advice to our friend Dario is to find the one permanent partner and hopefully cherish that. 

I agree.  He could still attend church even if he is not a member if that is valuable to him.  But if he wants membership, then I suggest following the rules of the church and being honest, otherwise membership is pointless.  It would be better off to attend as a non-member, like Navidad does/did.   If one is unwilling to make and keep covenants with all honesty and integrity, then don't.  It would be better to be a gay and married non-member who attends church (or not), then a promiscuous, non-married member (on paper only) who has no intention of keeping covenants.   These all need to be considered. 

I wish and hope for the best considering his situation.  God bless Dario!

Edited March 15, 2023 by pogi

[Grug the Neanderthal]

57 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Your black and white world view is the same all -right /all-wrong attitude that other people who are rigid have had have done (and no doubt will do ) harm to the child I love. He has been beaten. He has been scorned. He has been abused. And he holds his head high and just continues to take it. The abuse he has received has been all about his sexuality and that people don’t think he should be what he is. Your comments are a reflection of this attitude, and every time I think of him, my heart is broken and swells in love for him and who I know he is. 
he is serving a mission for God right now. He loves God. When he comes home, he will have to contend with his sexuality. He is pure, innocent, and he is gay.
You cannot shame the gay out of anybody. scientifically it has been proven impossible.

Where did I say anything about beating or shaming the gay out of somebody? 

If homosexual relationships are forbidden by God, which they are, then surely a just and loving God will help people overcome the temptation to engage in this sinful practice. I know people who have overcome this temptation with the help of counseling from church leaders and professionals and loving support from family and friends. 

I have a close family member who delayed going on mission because of this, overcame his struggles with the help of counseling and loving support from his family, and has now been happily married to a woman for over 10 years. They have four beautiful children together. 

57 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

It is illegal in the world of therapy to try to get somebody to stop being gay.

This isn’t true. Some places have banned some are all forms of gay conversion therapy for minors, but this is a very recent trend and is not universal. 

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

He is a sweet boy and I love him with all of my heart and I never want him to marry a woman- I would not want that for her. I don’t want that for him.

But what if he changed and wanted this for himself? What if he got to a place were he was no longer struggling with same-sex attraction the way he was in the past and is genuinely ready for a loving committed marriage to a woman? Would you still be against this? If so, why?

 

 

[MustardSeed]

9 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Where did I say anything about beating or shaming the gay out of somebody? 

If homosexual relationships are forbidden by God, which they are, then surely a just and loving God will help people overcome the temptation to engage in this sinful practice. I know people who have overcome this temptation with the help of counseling from church leaders and professionals and loving support from family and friends. 

I have a close family member who delayed going on mission because of this, overcame his struggles with the help of counseling and loving support from his family, and has now been happily married to a woman for over 10 years. They have four beautiful children together. 

This isn’t true. Some places have banned some are all forms of gay conversion therapy for minors, but this is a very recent trend and is not universal. 

But what if he changed and wanted this for himself? What if he got to a place were he was no longer struggling with same-sex attraction the way he was in the past and is genuinely ready for a loving committed marriage to a woman? Would you still be against this? If so, why?

 

 

I’m not interested in arguing with you. 
edited to say, 

I don’t want to engage with you any further. I have no reason to trust that you care about me. I just got very vulnerable with you and you twisted things to support your agenda. This is not good faith discussion. You are now permanently blocked.

Edited March 15, 2023 by MustardSeed

[Grug the Neanderthal]

20 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m not interested in arguing with you. 

This is a discussion, not an argument. I have been completely civil with you. But if you don’t care to answer my questions or acknowledge that I can have a different perspective than you do without being "atrocious" that’s your right. 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal