mfbukowski Posted March 17, 2023 Posted March 17, 2023 5 minutes ago, Calm said: Did you read the article? Which one?
Calm Posted March 17, 2023 Posted March 17, 2023 6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Which one? Forget it
Dario_M Posted March 17, 2023 Posted March 17, 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, JLHPROF said: That's because there's no such thing. At least not if you're using marriage in a gospel sense. It literally doesn't exist. Then stop saying that gay relationships/sex is wrong in the eyes of God. You simply just don't know that for sure. Edited March 17, 2023 by Dario_M 1
pogi Posted March 17, 2023 Posted March 17, 2023 (edited) 11 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: That’s all well and good, but how do you know if your compass is aligned with God’s will or not? It bears good fruit. We test the seed (word of God) by the measure of the Spirit, not the other way around. Even the scriptures acknowledge that - See Alma 32, Moroni 10, 3-5, James 1:5, and many others. We are not some fundamentalist and literalist sola scripturians. Edited March 17, 2023 by pogi 2
pogi Posted March 17, 2023 Posted March 17, 2023 11 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: Yes, you are. I stop the conversation once mind-reading begins.
Grug the Neanderthal Posted March 17, 2023 Author Posted March 17, 2023 34 minutes ago, pogi said: It bears good fruit. We test the seed Where did you learn about testing the seed to see if it bears good fruit? From your own personal compass or from the word of God in the scriptures? 30 minutes ago, pogi said: I stop the conversation once mind-reading begins. But you love to mind-read Pogi. I notice that you still haven’t responded to my point about the old life-long openly gay celibate member. Could this be the real reason why you are stopping the conversation? 🤔 -2
Tacenda Posted March 17, 2023 Posted March 17, 2023 12 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: That’s all well and good, but how do you know if your compass is aligned with God’s will or not? How do you know if the scriptures are from God?
pogi Posted March 17, 2023 Posted March 17, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: Where did you learn about testing the seed to see if it bears good fruit? From your own personal compass or from the word of God in the scriptures? The Spirit and fruits confirmed to me the truthfulness of these passages in the scriptures. It is not about where one learns about the seeds (the prophets encourage us to find truth everywhere - not just from scripture/prophets - which has also been confirmed to me as God's will by the Spirit and fruits), the question was about how one "knows" it aligns with God's will. 2 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: Could this be the real reason why you are stopping the conversation? 🤔 No. Edited March 17, 2023 by pogi 2
CV75 Posted March 17, 2023 Posted March 17, 2023 15 hours ago, Benjamin Seeker said: on a tremendously, controversial subject, seems like it would be a revelation worth giving. From what I've seen, revelation concerning Church doctrine and policy does not settle public debate on controversial secular issues such as civil rights (racial and other discrimination in public accommodation, voting, labor, marriage recognition, etc.). So, the saints' expectations on settling "controversy" needs to be in context. There was no prolonged, heated, public debate within the Church about the priesthood ban; the same with ssm. That is because there simply is no mechanism for debate (for good reason -- 3 Nephi 11:29). When members treat the laws of the Church within the body of Christ as a controversy (prolonged, heated, vociferous debate), it is by the spirit of contention. But instead of debate, we have the structure of 3 Nephi 12:1 and the council system and process as described in the D&C (notably 107:78-84), which deal with "the business of the church" and "transgressors." Matters are treated not on the basis of their public or social controversy -- within the Church or the broader society in which we function -- but on their spiritual implications, and much more privately than in the public square. 1
Grug the Neanderthal Posted March 17, 2023 Author Posted March 17, 2023 2 hours ago, Tacenda said: How do you know if the scriptures are from God? By the power of the Holy Ghost and by applying the teachings in my life.
Dario_M Posted March 17, 2023 Posted March 17, 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: By the power of the Holy Ghost and by applying the teachings in my life. I'm sure that must have been another ghost then? Are you really sure you where speaking with the holy ghost himself? Edited March 17, 2023 by Dario_M
Grug the Neanderthal Posted March 17, 2023 Author Posted March 17, 2023 On 3/15/2023 at 6:48 PM, Grug the Neanderthal said: Yeah, it’s too bad certain individuals resort to gaslighting. I think it’s just a defense mechanism to avoid having to actually address arguments they don’t have a good answer to. I guess it could also be a way of expressing their disdain for individuals who hold views they find threatening or offensive. Downvoting a bunch of posts in an attempt to turn public opinion against an individual and discredit them is another manifestation of this. @Rock_N_Roll why don’t you join the conversation and offer something constructive, instead of casting a bunch of downvotes from the sidelines?
Grug the Neanderthal Posted March 17, 2023 Author Posted March 17, 2023 12 minutes ago, Dario_M said: I'm sure that must have been another ghost then? Are you really sure you where speaking with the holy ghost himself? So you don’t believe the scriptures are from God then?
Benjamin Seeker Posted March 17, 2023 Posted March 17, 2023 1 hour ago, CV75 said: There was no prolonged, heated, public debate within the Church about the priesthood ban; the same with ssm. That is because there simply is no mechanism for debate (for good reason -- 3 Nephi 11:29). There was plenty of controversy within the church on the priesthood policy before the ban was lifted, and there is plenty of controversy within the church right now over ssm. This thread is one small piece of evidence for that. The poll that someone cited earlier in the thread demonstrates that, as does the many other debates on this forum and in many other places. 1
Dario_M Posted March 17, 2023 Posted March 17, 2023 4 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: So you don’t believe the scriptures are from God then? I believe 80% is really from God. The other 20% i'm not so sure about it. I hope you don't mind??
Grug the Neanderthal Posted March 17, 2023 Author Posted March 17, 2023 1 hour ago, pogi said: The Spirit and fruits confirmed to me the truthfulness of these passages in the scriptures. It is not about where one learns about the seeds (the prophets encourage us to find truth everywhere - not just from scripture/prophets - which has also been confirmed to me as God's will by the Spirit and fruits), the question was about how one "knows" it aligns with God's will. Without the scriptures you wouldn’t even know what the Holy Ghost is or how to recognize how he confirms truth. And you still haven’t responded to or even acknowledged my point about the old life-long openly gay but celibate member. So I think it’s obvious that you are ending the conversation to avoid addressing this point.
Grug the Neanderthal Posted March 17, 2023 Author Posted March 17, 2023 1 minute ago, Dario_M said: I believe 80% is really from God. The other 20% i'm not so sure about it. I hope you don't mind?? I don’t mind at all. Believe whatever you want.
Dario_M Posted March 17, 2023 Posted March 17, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: I don’t mind at all. Believe whatever you want. Grateful. Edited March 17, 2023 by Dario_M
mfbukowski Posted March 17, 2023 Posted March 17, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: From your own personal compass or from the word of God in the scriptures? How do you know the scriptures are true? Without personal testimony you have a dusty book with weird stories written thousands of years ago It's personal testimony or blind obedience, no in between You make all the critics correct. Edited March 17, 2023 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted March 17, 2023 Posted March 17, 2023 9 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: Without the scriptures you wouldn’t even know what the Holy Ghost is or how to recognize how he confirms truth. Right. Blind obedience unless you have a testimony there IS a holy spirit This is a contradiction in itself.
Grug the Neanderthal Posted March 17, 2023 Author Posted March 17, 2023 (edited) 34 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: It's personal testimony or blind obedience, no in between I think you’re forgetting about faith. Faith is not a perfect knowledge, but it isn’t blind obedience either. Faith is rational and backed by evidence and testimony. Edited March 17, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal
pogi Posted March 17, 2023 Posted March 17, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: Without the scriptures you wouldn’t even know what the Holy Ghost is or how to recognize how he confirms truth. As I stated, we are not talking about where truth is taught, we are talking about how one recognizes it. You seem to think that I am discounting the scriptures as a source - I'm not. Yes, the scriptures/prophets taught me about the Holy Ghost, but it is my experience with it and the fruits (not the scriptures) that confirms what aligns with God's will. We don't know that the scriptures are true because the scriptures say they are - that is circular. We know spiritual truths via the spiritual fruits. Period. 1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: And you still haven’t responded to or even acknowledged my point about the old life-long openly gay but celibate member. So I think it’s obvious that you are ending the conversation to avoid addressing this point. I have stated why. You can keep trying to mind read and think that I am lying if you want. Your argument is pretty silly though. The church has been ok with people using the label "gay" for over a decade now (with mormonandgay.lds.org starting in 2016), and before that they were always ok with people being open about same-sex attraction. That has never been a sin. Where have all the old celibate gay-folk/SSA-folk gone? Gone to atheism, community of Christ, or episcopalism (where they can get married and not ex'd) everyone... ♪♪♪ We will follow that trend. We always lag a bit behind others. Edited March 17, 2023 by pogi 1
CV75 Posted March 17, 2023 Posted March 17, 2023 1 hour ago, Benjamin Seeker said: There was plenty of controversy within the church on the priesthood policy before the ban was lifted, and there is plenty of controversy within the church right now over ssm. This thread is one small piece of evidence for that. The poll that someone cited earlier in the thread demonstrates that, as does the many other debates on this forum and in many other places. As I explained, there is no public, prolonged heated debate "within the Church", meaning there was (for the ban) and is (for ssm) no contention within the councils and there was and is no place for contention within the body of Christ. What you are describing is more in the way of some members expressing angst or arguing over doctrine and policy, which is not (and never was) the basis for revelation nor the environment in which it is received in the presiding councils of the Church.
Grug the Neanderthal Posted March 17, 2023 Author Posted March 17, 2023 (edited) 26 minutes ago, pogi said: Where have all the old celibate gay-folk/SSA-folk gone? Gone to atheism, community of Christ, or episcopalism (where they can get married and not ex'd) everyone... ♪♪♪ Thank you for finally addressing my point. Since the church strongly discouraged members from openly identify as gay until very recently, those members who identified themselves as being gay decades ago either went inactive or left the church. Most pursued homosexual relationships, which took them out of the church. Those who struggled with same-sex attraction to one degree or another but didn’t openly identify as gay, went down a serious of different paths. Some stayed active in church and remained celibate. Some stayed active and got married to a person of the opposite sex. Some explored homosexual relationships before choosing to go back to being celibate or marrying someone of the opposite sex. Others tried celibacy and or marrying someone of the opposite sex before ultimately deciding to pursue homosexual relationships. 26 minutes ago, pogi said: We will follow that trend. We always lag a bit behind others. This is generally how apostasy works. Edited March 17, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal
pogi Posted March 17, 2023 Posted March 17, 2023 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: Thank you for finally addressing my point. Ironic that you are now ignoring my point about how we know spiritual things. Should I hound you and accuse you of not having an answer? 17 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: Since the church strongly discouraged members from openly identify as gay until very recently, those members who identified themselves as being gay decades ago either went inactive or left the church. Most pursued homosexual relationships, which took them out of the church. Is a decade "relatively recently" in your mind? Not mine. So now that the church is ok with members identifying as gay, you think that more will stay as life-long celibates? That seems silly. 17 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: Some stayed active in church and remained celibate. This is what I am talking about. Where are they? Where are the old celibate people who have same-sex attraction and have remained celibate their entire lives? As I stated the church has been ok with using the word "gay" for around a decade now, they have been open to people identifying as having same-sex attraction for much, much longer. Where are they? Edited March 17, 2023 by pogi
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