Trib Article: BYU faculty members urged to align their teaching, research better with LDS tenets

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

It is reviewable. Talk with the stake president.

BYU would not review it.  She was fired before she even knew the endorsement hadn't been given.

[2BizE]

There are many problems with this path  BYU is taking by seemingly trying to align research with LDS tenets.  There are many fields of academics that are not religious oriented.  Professors in these fields may have studied at many prestigious universities including Cambridge, Yale, Columbia, Harvard who along the way developed interests in performing robust studies in their areas of expertise. Now the church, aka BYU, apparently aka Jesus Christ, are being instructed to change their pursuits to align them somehow with the church. There is the possibility their lifelong research passions may be declined funding.  This will lead to the best and brightest talent leaving BYU in many fields including law, business, sciences, nursing, paleontology, even religious studies, etc.  And this has already started. 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

BYU would not review it.  She was fired before she even knew the endorsement hadn't been given.

Take it to the stake president and the area authority then.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[bluebell]

26 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Take it to the stake president and the area authority then.

BYU never provided that as an option. And what could a stake president (or area authority) do to get someone’s job back after BYU knew she had her endorsement reinstated but still didn’t rehire her?

 

[smac97]

44 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Quote

Take it to the stake president and the area authority then.

BYU never provided that as an option.

Perhaps that option is not BYU's to give.  It's not like BYU could prohibit "tak{ing} it to the stake president" or "area authority."

44 minutes ago, bluebell said:

And what could a stake president (or area authority) do to get someone’s job back after BYU knew she had her endorsement reinstated but still didn’t rehire her?

I think some accommodation might have been possible.

I have a client who owns a small parcel of land adjacent to Aspen Grove in Provo Canyon (Aspen Grove being a "mountain retreat" facility owned and maintained by BYU).  My client has had some challenges in working with BYU as a land neighbor (encroachments, water runoff problems, etc.).  He went a while communicating with a VP at BYU, but then brought me on board.  The VP wigged out a bit, saying that hiring an attorney (to help resolve a real estate dispute) amounted to an "escalation."  It was . . . weird.  We got it sorted out in the end, but it required a fair amount of out-of-the-box thinking, as well as participation by other groups (BYU's legal department, Utah County, etc.).  

BYU's bureaucratic systems can be as complex and messy and stupid as any other organization's, with errors made along the way.  Because institutions like BYU occupy an unusual niche in the lives of some Church members (where "the Church" is both their religious association and their employer), I think particular attention ought to be paid to matters that touch on the Church-as-Both-Religion-and-Employer nexus.  That may involve a bit more assertiveness and out-of-the-box thinking than is typically utilized when dealing with a bishop acting in his ecclesiastical capacity.

FWIW, I am very sorry that this happened to your friend.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited February 8, 2023 by smac97

[california boy]

1 hour ago, 2BizE said:

There are many problems with this path  BYU is taking by seemingly trying to align research with LDS tenets.  There are many fields of academics that are not religious oriented.  Professors in these fields may have studied at many prestigious universities including Cambridge, Yale, Columbia, Harvard who along the way developed interests in performing robust studies in their areas of expertise. Now the church, aka BYU, apparently aka Jesus Christ, are being instructed to change their pursuits to align them somehow with the church. There is the possibility their lifelong research passions may be declined funding.  This will lead to the best and brightest talent leaving BYU in many fields including law, business, sciences, nursing, paleontology, even religious studies, etc.  And this has already started. 

Definitely no angel wings in the art department.

[smac97]

1 hour ago, 2BizE said:

There are many problems with this path  BYU is taking by seemingly trying to align research with LDS tenets.  

With respect, I disagree.  As OGHoosier observed: "It's fashionable today to approach fields of study through a multiplicity of explicitly labelled perspectives: feminist perspectives on Field of Study X, decolonialist, Catholic social teaching, pragmatist, Jewish, etc."

There is nothing wrong with adding a "Latter-day Saint perspective" to the list.

1 hour ago, 2BizE said:

There are many fields of academics that are not religious oriented.  

Not explicitly or traditionally, perhaps.  But so what?  

1 hour ago, 2BizE said:

Professors in these fields may have studied at many prestigious universities including Cambridge, Yale, Columbia, Harvard who along the way developed interests in performing robust studies in their areas of expertise. Now the church, aka BYU, apparently aka Jesus Christ, are being instructed to change their pursuits to align them somehow with the church.

I'm not sure this is some sort of profound or out-of-left-field alteration to things at BYU.  It has always been a religious institution.

1 hour ago, 2BizE said:

There is the possibility their lifelong research passions may be declined funding.  

I doubt it.  But even if that happens, the mission of BYU must supersede an individual's "research passions."  

1 hour ago, 2BizE said:

This will lead to the best and brightest talent leaving BYU in many fields including law, business, sciences, nursing, paleontology, even religious studies, etc.  And this has already started. 

Really?  CFR, please.

Out of curiosity, do you really care about this?  Are you concerned about BYU losing "the best and brightest talent"?

Thanks,

-Smac

[ttribe]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

That speaks of their prejudice. Hopefully the judge shut it down.  The same could be said about other religions, minorities, social clubs, neighborhoods, etc.

Of course it speaks to their prejudice. That doesn't change the fact that and I others have noted a stigma associated with being a BYU alum. The two often go hand-in-hand.

The judge didn't notice.

Of course it could be said about other religions, etc. But I wasn't a member of any of those other religions, etc. I choose to comment on the one with which I have experience. None of that changes the presence of a stigma, nor does it reduce my right to opine on what the actions of the Church relative to BYU might mean to me as an alum of that educational institution.

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, ttribe said:

Of course it speaks to their prejudice. That doesn't change the fact that and I others have noted a stigma associated with being a BYU alum. The two often go hand-in-hand.

The judge didn't notice.

Of course it could be said about other religions, etc. But I wasn't a member of any of those other religions, etc. I choose to comment on the one with which I have experience. None of that changes the presence of a stigma, nor does it reduce my right to opine on what the actions of the Church relative to BYU might mean to me as an alum of that educational institution.

Shame on that judge!

There are a lot of prejudiced folks out there. I wonder if they associate Notre Dame or Gonzaga with Catholicism or Yeshiva University with Judaism in a prejudiced way. I’m sure that would happen to Liberty and Oral Roberts Universities, but probably not Pacific Lutheran or Southern Methodist. Perhaps BYU should pull a Harvard and secede from the Church so the alums can save face. 😬

I would never have guessed that a reply to a comment would result in a loss of one’s rights. 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, bluebell said:

BYU never provided that as an option. And what could a stake president (or area authority) do to get someone’s job back after BYU knew she had her endorsement reinstated but still didn’t rehire her?

Seems like it would be worth the effort to find out what could be done. After all, the SP and AA are the proper conduits to the Board of Directors. Just my opinion.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, smac97 said:

Really?  CFR, please.

According to this, BYU actually moved up 6 spots in the best graduate programs field of law.  There are some other BYU programs listed. One should be able to check out USNews ranking each year to see standings and if rising or falling.  Doesn’t answer the CFR precisely, but approximates it as a program that loses quality faculty will drop in rating and if academic standards of current students drop (scores on national tests) that would drop ratings as well.

https://news.byu.edu/intellect/byu-law-leads-list-of-byu-graduate-programs-moving-up-in-u-s-news-rankings

Quote

BYU Law has earned its highest U.S. News ranking to date, rocketing up six spots from last year and coming in at No. 23 in the 2023 Best Graduate School rankings released today.

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/brigham-young-university-230038/overall-rankings

Looks like you have to subscribe to get all the rankings, but as far as I can tell without signing up, it is free.  2Biz might have a better option he can use though to provide the CFR.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, smac97 said:

Out of curiosity, do you really care about this?  Are you concerned about BYU losing "the best and brightest talent"?

There are a lot of good and bright folks looking for academic employment. Lots of folks with PhDs looking for a position. There is no reason why being committed to the Lord would make one less of a scholar or teacher.

Most schools are now requiring active or prospective faculty to create Diversity Equity Inclusion documents as a condition of employment…to be reviewed, edited, and approved by regulators. Intrusive? Intimidating? Onerous?

Google “DEI any university.”

Edited February 9, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[smac97]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

According to this, BYU actually moved up 6 spots in the best graduate programs field of law.  There are some other BYU programs listed. One should be able to check out USNews ranking each year to see standings and if rising or falling.  Doesn’t answer the CFR precisely, but approximates it as a program that loses quality faculty will drop in rating and if academic standards of current students drop (scores on national tests) that would drop ratings as well.

https://news.byu.edu/intellect/byu-law-leads-list-of-byu-graduate-programs-moving-up-in-u-s-news-rankings

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/brigham-young-university-230038/overall-rankings

Looks like you have to subscribe to get all the rankings, but as far as I can tell without signing up, it is free.  2Biz might have a better option he can use though to provide the CFR.

A few issues with U.S. News rankings these days:

Quote

AS EXPECTED, UNDER PRESSURE FROM THE INDUSTRY THEY’RE DROPPING METRICS THAT ONLY MATTER TO CONSUMERS: U.S. News Drops Student Loans And Employment-At-Graduation (In Addition To Expenditures-Per-Student) From Forthcoming Law School Rankings. How much debt students accumulate, and whether — and how well — graduates are employed is important information that might make law school look like a bad deal. So it’s gone!

THE FLIGHT FROM STANDARDS: Deans Of Lower Ranked Law Schools Join Boycott And Criticize U.S. News Rankings. There’s plenty to criticize about the rankings — not least that tiny, insignificant changes can move a school 10 or 20 places — but this is more about making it easy to discriminate on race in admissions without it being so obvious.

THOUGHTS ON THE LAW SCHOOL U.S. NEWS RANKINGS BOYCOTT: “Idiosyncratically defined diversity will likely continue to serve as a rationalization for profit-maximizing practices. Educators, public officials, and media organizations have been arguing for decades that diversity justifies departures from identity-neutral meritocratic standards. Nevertheless, most of the population still considers universities’ race, ethnicity, and legacy admissions policies unethical.”

IF RANKINGS WEREN’T IMPORTANT, PEOPLE MIGHT FOCUS ON LOCATION AND COST: More Commentary On The U.S. News Law School Rankings Boycott. “The ire directed at U.S. News and other purveyors of rankings is understandable but can mask a deeper and more troubling reality: In the world of colleges and universities, reputation, brand strength, prestige — call it what you will — is now and has long been more important than anything else, including the nature and quality of the actual education provided. In fact it would be difficult to find another industry in which reputations are so fixed, so valuable, and based on so little hard evidence.”

NOTHING TO SEE HERE, MOVE ALONG: With Duke And Northwestern, Nine Of T14 Refuse To Participate In U.S. News Law School Rankings.

HIGHER EDUCATION BUBBLE UPDATE: Rutgers Seeks Dismissal Of Lawsuit Claiming Business School Created Fake Jobs For Graduates To Goose Ranking. “The amended complaint alleged that Rutgers inflated the school’s rankings in publications such as U.S. News & World Report by hiring graduating MBA students who were unemployed and placing them in “token permanent positions directly with the university.” The purported scheme duped prospective students about the potential employment opportunities that come with attending the school, according to the complaint.”

HIGHER EDUCATION BUBBLE UPDATE: Colin Diver: The Rankings Farce. “‘U.S. News’ and its ilk embrace faux-precise formulas riven with statistical misconceptions.”

HIGHER EDUCATION BUBBLE UPDATE, CULTURE OF CORRUPTION EDITION: Former Temple Dean Convicted In U.S. News Rankings Scandal Fraud; AUSA Hopes Case Send A Message To Administrators At Other Schools.

JEN PSAKI SAYS EVERYTHING IS GOING SMOOTHLY: U.S. News Issues THIRD Version Of Law School Rankings In Advance Of Their Public Release On Tuesday (12:01AM ET). “This change affected the overall ranking of 35 law schools, including 9 law schools in the Top 30.”  If a .25% change in the metric for the “ratio of credit-bearing hours of instruction provided by law librarians to full-time equivalent law students” can do that, it tells you how close the schools are to one another, and thus how trivial the difference in the rankings is, and thus how little the rankings really mean.

DUE TO CHANGES IN THE “DIVERSITY RANKING.” U.S. News Makes Last-Minute Changes to Law School Rankings, Fueling Criticism And Concern. “Changing the rankings multiple times prior to their official publication is unprecedented, according to Erwin Chemerinsky, dean of the University of California, Berkeley School of Law. Those changes are bringing to the fore the longstanding uneasiness legal educators have over how U.S. News weighs law schools, as well as fresher concerns over its handling of data and the accuracy of its rankings.”  Plus, an indication of how little the rankings mean due to compression: “The library open hours metric accounts for just .25% of a law school’s overall ranking, yet correcting that mistake changed the ranking of more than 30 schools, according to multiple law school faculty, some by as much as six spots. That illustrates just how compressed the law school rankings are and that small methodology tweaks can cause major shifts.”

LEGAL EDUCATION UPDATE: Political Ideology And The U.S. News Law School Rankings: Measuring The Conservative Penalty And Liberal Bonus. “This study produced strong evidence for the existence of a conservative penalty and liberal bonus in law school peer rankings. Because these rankings are the leading factor in the overall rankings, this results in a similar conservative penalty and liberal bonus there as well. This finding is consistent with other research on ideological bias in legal academia. Fortunately, there is a simple solution to the problem of ideological bias in law school rankings. Removing the peer score from the overall ranking calculation will better inform prospective law students, reduce inefficiencies in the hiring market, and contribute to greater ideological diversity in law schools and legal scholarship.”

Thanks,

-Smac

[ttribe]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Shame on that judge!

There are a lot of prejudiced folks out there. I wonder if they associate Notre Dame or Gonzaga with Catholicism or Yeshiva University with Judaism in a prejudiced way. I’m sure that would happen to Liberty and Oral Roberts Universities, but probably not Pacific Lutheran or Southern Methodist. Perhaps BYU should pull a Harvard and secede from the Church so the alums can save face. 😬

I would never have guessed that a reply to a comment would result in a loss of one’s rights. 

Your snark is duly noted, as is your effort to invalidate my opinion of my own experiences.

[Bernard Gui]

20 hours ago, ttribe said:

Your snark is duly noted, as is your effort to invalidate my opinion of my own experiences.

I have had similar experiences, but I understand that people are prejudiced. That’s not BYU or the Church’s fault or problem. It’s unfortunate, but that’s the way some people roll.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

20 hours ago, ttribe said:

Your snark is duly noted, as is your effort to invalidate my opinion of my own experiences.

Your experience is valuable. Sorry that I offended you.

[Chum]

On 2/8/2023 at 2:01 PM, Bernard Gui said:

On 2/7/2023 at 9:16 PM, Chum said:

I can recall a time when students were the point of universities.

 Please explain.

A school is created to provide services to students. When students are considered to be a distraction to a school's mission, it's mission is no longer it's created purpose.

[Bernard Gui]

On 2/8/2023 at 6:42 AM, The Nehor said:

It was a close escape.

Emotional terrorism is serious.

 

It would appear the dismissal was premature.

[Bernard Gui]

14 hours ago, Chum said:

A school is created to provide services to students. When students are considered to be a distraction to a school's mission, it's mission is no longer it's created purpose.

What do you think the mission is now?

[2BizE]

On 2/8/2023 at 10:13 PM, smac97 said:

With respect, I disagree.  As OGHoosier observed: "It's fashionable today to approach fields of study through a multiplicity of explicitly labelled perspectives: feminist perspectives on Field of Study X, decolonialist, Catholic social teaching, pragmatist, Jewish, etc."

There is nothing wrong with adding a "Latter-day Saint perspective" to the list.

Not explicitly or traditionally, perhaps.  But so what?  

I'm not sure this is some sort of profound or out-of-left-field alteration to things at BYU.  It has always been a religious institution.

I doubt it.  But even if that happens, the mission of BYU must supersede an individual's "research passions."  

Really?  CFR, please.

Out of curiosity, do you really care about this?  Are you concerned about BYU losing "the best and brightest talent"?

Thanks,

-Smac

SMAC, I am truly concerned as I feel my degree from BYU is being devalued. Perceptions of BYU are diminishing and so does my ability to use my degree on my resume.

One recent example of a talented BYU professor leaving is Dan McClellan.

[OGHoosier]

8 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

One recent example of a talented BYU professor leaving is Dan McClellan.

McClellan wasn't a BYU professor, he was working in the Church's scripture translation department.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, OGHoosier said:

McClellan wasn't a BYU professor, he was working in the Church's scripture translation department.

Has he quit that?  He was on the board not long ago.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Calm

[OGHoosier]

29 minutes ago, Calm said:

Has he quit that?  He was on the board not long ago.

Yeah, he announced on TikTok that he was leaving Church employment and was going to focus on his TikTok videos on biblical scholarship. The announcement was the subject of a brief controversy in certain quarters of the TwitterStake. This was only a few weeks ago.

[sunstoned]

1 hour ago, OGHoosier said:

Yeah, he announced on TikTok that he was leaving Church employment and was going to focus on his TikTok videos on biblical scholarship. The announcement was the subject of a brief controversy in certain quarters of the TwitterStake. This was only a few weeks ago.

It seems he has quite a large TikTok following.

[JustAnAustralian]

2 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

This was only a few weeks ago.

Twitter post was Jan 29