What does keys of the priesthood add?

[Hamba Tuhan]

30 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think she meant how would your temple experience be different for someone who didn't hold keys.

It wouldn't be. We would both have the same experience because the people who called us and set us apart have and exercise priesthood keys, bestowing this blessing upon us.

[Mark Beesley]

13 minutes ago, Rain said:

I don't understand why it needs to be discretely, but I actually did that before posting here, but understood no better. So given that there are many here who might be able to help me I asked.

Yes, humility is the key to understanding all of God's work, but I'm not sure how that answers my questions.

I hope you didn’t misunderstand what I meant by the word discretely. Not that it had to be asked behind closed doors or something, but rather ask about a specific act, and the keys required for that rather than rather a group of actions, i.e. discrete rather than general.  

It may be that for some that the concept of priesthood keys is confusing because they complicate it. I don’t want to be critical, but asking about the keys of the Elder’s Quorum President beyond simply organizing his quorum, calling counselors, assigning teachers and ministering brethren, and things like that may be “looking beyond the mark.”  After all, isn’t ensuring that things are done in order an integral part of God’s kingdom. “My house is a house order.“ And what is more crucial to order than identifying clearly, who has the authority to organize.

 

 

[Rain]

9 minutes ago, Mark Beesley said:

I hope you didn’t misunderstand what I meant by the word discretely. Not that it had to be asked behind closed doors or something, but rather ask about a specific act, and the keys required for that rather than rather a group of actions, i.e. discrete rather than general.  

It may be that for some that the concept of priesthood keys is confusing because they complicate it. I don’t want to be critical, but asking about the keys of the Elder’s Quorum President beyond simply organizing his quorum, calling counselors, assigning teachers and ministering brethren, and things like that may be “looking beyond the mark.”  After all, isn’t ensuring that things are done in order an integral part of God’s kingdom. “My house is a house order.“ And what is more crucial to order than identifying clearly, who has the authority to organize.

 

 

I don't understand why seeking for understanding on this is looking beyond the mark as described here by Elder Cook:

"We are looking beyond the mark when we elevate any one principle, no matter how worthwhile it may be, to a prominence that lessens our commitment to other equally important principles or when we take a position that is contrary to the teachings of the Brethren."

We are taught to seek for wisdom from God after studying it out.  That's what I'm trying to do here.

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, CV75 said:

Yes, conducting a meeting is not an ordinance. The sacrament is an ordinance, so keys are needed to oversee the meeting and perform the preparing, blessing and transfer of emblems from the blessing to the congregation, as Jesus instructed his twelve disciples in 3 Nephi 18: 3-4, 8-9. The office of deacon is one that may transfer the emblems from the blessing to the congregation. So, the purpose of his priesthood office is not to conduct, but to pass the sacrament. He conducts in a quorum meeting just as a young woman his age would conduct in her class.

And the bishop and deacons quorum president are the only ones who should assign brethren to pass the sacrament when there are not enough deacons. They hold the keys to that duty.

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I understand this aspect of priesthood keys. It appears that Rain does as well though I don't want to speak for her. 

It's the other aspects of priesthood keys that are a bit more confusing to me.  For example, the EQP holds keys even though he seems to have the same responsibility when it comes to ordinances that every other elder has who doesn't hold keys.  What purpose does he hold keys when his calling is not connected to an ordinance?

To me, “priesthood keys” is the system God ordained for the orderly governance of his kingdom and priesthood. Being given a key by one who possesses them gives a priesthood holder permission and authority to authorize, supervise, and rescind ordinances, ordinations, duties, callings, organizational functions, teachings, and all other things pertaining to his specific calling in the kingdom. He cannot take them upon himself. The keys are held only while in the calling and are taken back upon release. While I was ordained and still am a bishop, I do not have a bishop’s keys because I was released from that calling.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[gav]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

I understand this aspect of priesthood keys. It appears that Rain does as well though I don't want to speak for her. 

It's the other aspects of priesthood keys that are a bit more confusing to me.  For example, the EQP holds keys even though he seems to have the same responsibility when it comes to ordinances that every other elder has who doesn't hold keys.  What purpose does he hold keys when his calling is not connected to an ordinance?

Perhaps there is another aspect that requires clarification and that is the offices of the priesthood. When the Aaronic or Melchizedek priesthood is conferred for the first time you are also ordained to a specific office. Deacon, teacher, priest, elder, high priest etc. and one who holds that office is an office bearer and must be ready and worthy to officiate in that office as directed by a keyholder when that duty or ordinance requires direction from a keyholder. There are some duties and ordinances that do not require direction or authorisation from a holder of keys. When you are advanced to another office, say Teacher or Priest, the Aaronic priesthood is not re-conferred but you are ordained to the office of Teacher or Priest in that priesthood.

• Priesthood is the power to act in God's name with some limited authorisation.
• Office determines the scope of duties, responsibilities and authorisation in that priesthood(Aaronic or Melchizedek)
• Keys authorise the key holder to direct the business of a quorum of office bearers and grant additional authorisations to those office bearers.

A quorum, although superficially similar to a YW class or a RS and with similar leadership and other common requirements is not the same. A quorum comprises not just a group of members but a formalised group of office bearers and hence the formal use of the name quorum.

When the YM are combined with the YW and not acting as a quorum then the YW may conduct and direct whatever business is being discussed because it is a mixed group and not specific quorum business and not dealing with quorum matters. Once the quorum is meeting as a formal quorum and being directed as a quorum then keys must be exercised in order to have the authority to lead, train, assign, conduct quorum business etc. within that quorum of office bearers. The duties/responsibilities of the quorum start out very simple but as one advances through the offices of the priesthood additional duties and responsibilities are added as the young men are prepared for officiation in higher offices as they get older, are advanced and are expected/obligated to do more.  

This is a progression of preparation by doing which I suspect will continue all the way to exaltation and whatever duties that entails. 

To see the difference between conferring to a prietshood, ordaining to an office and how the keys and authorisations operate in which circumstance see below.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/priesthood-ordinances-and-blessings/conferring-the-priesthood-and-ordaining-to-an-office?lang=eng

Edited January 12, 2023 by gav

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

To me, “priesthood keys” is the system God ordained for the orderly governance of his kingdom and priesthood. Being given a key by one who possesses them gives a priesthood holder permission and authority to authorize, supervise, and rescind ordinances, ordinations, duties, callings, organizational functions, teachings, and all other things pertaining to his specific calling in the kingdom. He cannot take them upon himself. The keys are held only while in the calling and are taken back upon release. While I was ordained and still am a bishop, I do not have a bishop’s keys because I was released from that calling.

In other words, if you were called again to be bishop, you would not need to be ordained. Same with me, and I am also a Seventy still, we are getting rare!

THAT should liven up this discussion! 😴

Edited January 12, 2023 by mfbukowski

[JustAnAustralian]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

THAT should liven up this discussion!

Yeah the old stake seventies, and non-acting patriarchs definitely add some fun into the mix.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Yeah the old stake seventies, and non-acting patriarchs definitely add some fun into the mix.

Not to mention the "High Priests" who aren't at the moment but might be yet again. 

Oh yeah and then we also have Weblos.  🤯😉

[bluebell]

15 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

To me, “priesthood keys” is the system God ordained for the orderly governance of his kingdom and priesthood. Being given a key by one who possesses them gives a priesthood holder permission and authority to authorize, supervise, and rescind ordinances, ordinations, duties, callings, organizational functions, teachings, and all other things pertaining to his specific calling in the kingdom. He cannot take them upon himself. The keys are held only while in the calling and are taken back upon release. While I was ordained and still am a bishop, I do not have a bishop’s keys because I was released from that calling.

The bolded part confuses the issue for me.

For example, a Deacon has keys but does not have "permission and authority to authorize, supervise, and rescind ordinances, or ordinations."  Likewise, a RS president doesn't have keys but does have "permission and authority to authorize and supervise duties, organizational functions, teachings, and all other things pertaining to her specific calling in the kingdom."

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, Balaam said:

Apparently ALL of the keys of the kingdom of God ALWAYS stay with the President of the Church, EVEN when he is delegating the use of those keys to people in other office callings.

Yes, that is true.

[mrmarklin]

On 1/11/2023 at 5:50 AM, Rain said:

So this means it is just more authority right?

Right.  Somebody has to be the boss of how it is used.

[gav]

7 hours ago, bluebell said:

The bolded part confuses the issue for me.

For example, a Deacon has keys but does not have "permission and authority to authorize, supervise, and rescind ordinances, or ordinations."  Likewise, a RS president doesn't have keys but does have "permission and authority to authorize and supervise duties, organizational functions, teachings, and all other things pertaining to her specific calling in the kingdom."

Yes, but she does not need to preside over priesthood office bearers in a formal quorum setting and direct priesthood quorum business. The deacons quorum president does. Among the other things mentioned, keys are necessary to direct a quorum. At minimum this is why the DQP must have keys.

Keys are a prerequisite to the Lord's governance mechanisms in any priesthood structure. If you look at how keys are structured, every quorum at the ward and stake level has a keyholder and only one.

If women were to have the priesthood conferred upon them and ordained to an office in that priesthood and the Relief Society were to become a priesthood quorum then the RSP would absolutely need to have keys. She would no longer be able to operate simply with delegated keys. Every quorum must have keys at the head otherwise it is not properly constituted.

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, bluebell said:

The bolded part confuses the issue for me.

For example, a Deacon has keys but does not have "permission and authority to authorize, supervise, and rescind ordinances, or ordinations."  Likewise, a RS president doesn't have keys but does have "permission and authority to authorize and supervise duties, organizational functions, teachings, and all other things pertaining to her specific calling in the kingdom."

The DQP presides over the quorum because of the keys he holds. As such he assigns members to pass the sacrament and teaches them their duties. If there are not enough deacons he calls other priesthood bearers to assist. 

[Bernard Gui]

21 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

In other words, if you were called again to be bishop, you would not need to be ordained. Same with me, and I am also a Seventy still, we are getting rare!

THAT should liven up this discussion! 😴

A bishop, a Seventy, and Polish! I would lay odds that you are the only one in the world.👏

[mfbukowski]

58 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

A bishop, a Seventy, and Polish! I would lay odds that you are the only one in the world.👏

LOL!!

I don't know, but your point is well taken.

Those Poles got conquered by people coming from the East, then the west - peaceful farmers in a nice fertile plain, just taking care of their babies and working hard while the Russians march through one way, then the Germans from the other side, then the Russians again, then the Germans...

What held them together was Catholicism.

"Poland is not yet lost "

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_Is_Not_Yet_Lost

But we visited a ward in Krakow with a lot of old guys in it...

Edited January 13, 2023 by mfbukowski

[bluebell]

12 hours ago, gav said:

Yes, but she does not need to preside over priesthood office bearers in a formal quorum setting and direct priesthood quorum business. The deacons quorum president does. Among the other things mentioned, keys are necessary to direct a quorum. At minimum this is why the DQP must have keys.

Keys are a prerequisite to the Lord's governance mechanisms in any priesthood structure. If you look at how keys are structured, every quorum at the ward and stake level has a keyholder and only one.

If women were to have the priesthood conferred upon them and ordained to an office in that priesthood and the Relief Society were to become a priesthood quorum then the RSP would absolutely need to have keys. She would no longer be able to operate simply with delegated keys. Every quorum must have keys at the head otherwise it is not properly constituted.

Yes, very true. 

My confusion was specific to Bernard's post where he said that holding priesthood keys authorized a priesthood holder to do certain things that keys aren't actually required to do, such as "authorize and supervise duties, organizational functions, teachings, and all other things pertaining to her specific calling in the kingdom."

Bernard stated that those things were authorized by priesthood keys, but that doesn't seem to be the case.  That's confusing to me.

[bluebell]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

The DQP presides over the quorum because of the keys he holds. As such he assigns members to pass the sacrament and teaches them their duties. If there are not enough deacons he calls other priesthood bearers to assist. 

Yes, that's not confusing.  It was the other things that you said priesthood keys authorized, that they don't always authorize or that don't actually require keys, that I didn't understand.

[Bernard Gui]

15 hours ago, bluebell said:

Yes, that's not confusing.  It was the other things that you said priesthood keys authorized, that they don't always authorize or that don't actually require keys, that I didn't understand.

No one in the Church (male or female) could do any of those things* in the name of the Lord unless they were authorized to act by one holding the keys to the performance of their duties and activities. That is why the keys are so important. Ingenious system of governance.

* (authorize, supervise, perform, rescind ordinances, ordinations, duties, callings, organizational functions, teachings, and all other things pertaining to his specific calling in the kingdom)

Edited January 14, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On 1/13/2023 at 1:31 AM, mfbukowski said:

LOL!!

I don't know, but your point is well taken.

Those Poles got conquered by people coming from the East, then the west - peaceful farmers in a nice fertile plain, just taking care of their babies and working hard while the Russians march through one way, then the Germans from the other side, then the Russians again, then the Germans...

What held them together was Catholicism.

"Poland is not yet lost "

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_Is_Not_Yet_Lost

But we visited a ward in Krakow with a lot of old guys in it...

Have you heard about the new animal the Germans and Russians created? They crossed a cow with a giraffe so it could eat in Poland without leaving home. 

Even the Swedes took their turn. Poland is precisely in the wrong place.

Grandpa Piotr was staunchly Catholic. In his new home in Bayonne, New Jersey, he lived across the street from Our Lady of Mt. Carmel parish where he was the organist, choir director, sexton, and kindergarten teacher. My dad pumped the bellows on the organ and helped him ring the big bells.  

Have you read James Michener’s Poland? A fabulous book on the history of Poland. I think it was in that book where I read something like, “A Pole is happiest when he has a little piece of land and a stick with which to scratch it.” How true, how true.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

48 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Have you heard about the new animal the Germans and Russians created? They crossed a cow with a giraffe so it could eat in Poland without leaving home. 

Even the Swedes took their turn. Poland is precisely in the wrong place.

Grandpa Piotr was staunchly Catholic. In his new home in Bayonne, New Jersey, he lived across the street from Our Lady of My. Carmel parish where he was the organist, choir director, sexton, and kindergarten teacher. My dad pumped the bellows on the organ and helped him ring the big bells.  

Have you read James Michener’s Poland? A fabulous book on the history of Poland. I think itwas in that book where I read something like, “A Pole is happiest when he has a little piece of land and a stick with which to scratch it.” How true, how true.

It's crazy but my wife knows that my favorite "exercise" is to go out in the back yard and dig!! I read your comment to her and she totally cracked up- she kids me about that all the time.

A lot of what I do is pretty cerebral, but when you dig a hole, or trench, a ditch you can see it and feel it and see progress right there! I got something DONE!  It didn't take years or months to see the results.

👍👍

[mfbukowski]

15 hours ago, bluebell said:

Yes, very true. 

My confusion was specific to Bernard's post where he said that holding priesthood keys authorized a priesthood holder to do certain things that keys aren't actually required to do, such as "authorize and supervise duties, organizational functions, teachings, and all other things pertaining to her specific calling in the kingdom."

Bernard stated that those things were authorized by priesthood keys, but that doesn't seem to be the case.  That's confusing to me.

The President of the USA can go and visit Putin, can issue executive orders, speak to congress ,read classified documents  and on and on. He has the keys to do that.

He can also "do certain things that presidents aren't actually required to do, such as "authorize and supervise duties, organizational functions, teachings, and all other things pertaining to her / his specific job" like do the dishes at home, or make personal business decisions.

Does that help?

A driver's license give you keys to drive, but you also do other things in your life too.  It serves as ID to buy booze, get on an airplane, and wash the dishes, even without keys or special authority 

 

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The President of the USA can go and visit Putin, can issue executive orders, speak to congress ,read classified documents  and on and on. He has the keys to do that.

He can also "do certain things that presidents aren't actually required to do, such as "authorize and supervise duties, organizational functions, teachings, and all other things pertaining to her / his specific job" like do the dishes at home, or make personal business decisions.

Does that help?

A driver's license give you keys to drive, but you also do other things in your life too.  It serves as ID to buy booze, get on an airplane, and wash the dishes, even without keys or special authority 

 

POTUS sends a signed treaty to the Russian ambassador with authorization to deliver it personally to Putin. On the way to deliver it, the ambassador is killed in a plane accident and the letter is lost. I find the letter in a bush near the accident. Can I deliver it to Putin?

[Tacenda]

On 1/11/2023 at 10:39 AM, gav said:

Priesthood adds covenanted responsibility...

Women generally shoulder the greater responsibility when it comes to child bearing and raising. Men tend to shirk responsibility, so in the case of priesthood they make an oath and covenant to put down the remote and get up off the couch.

Keys direct and administer the kingdom and are over and above the priesthood holders and all other delegations(including those to women).

Men are covenanted via the priesthood to serve full time where women, because of their other biological and other demanding responsibilities etc. are only called upon part time.

In a future state, as demands shift, women will also officiate as Queens and Priestesses.

Yes, women are the jewels in the men's crowns...polygamy.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

No one in the Church (male or female) could do any of those things* in the name of the Lord unless they were authorized to act by one holding the keys to the performance of their duties and activities. That is why the keys are so important. Ingenious system of governance.

* (authorize, supervise, perform, rescind ordinances, ordinations, duties, callings, organizational functions, teachings, and all other things pertaining to his specific calling in the kingdom)

Yes, the bolded is understood.  It doesn't really address my post though.