What does keys of the priesthood add?

[Rain]

I understand what priesthood means.  I understand how a bishop has authority over his ward or a relief society has authority over the ward relief society. What does having keys add to this authority?  Is it just more authority or is it something more? If it's something more what is that something more? If it's just authority how is it different that it has to be called something different?

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I understand what priesthood means.  I understand how a bishop has authority over his ward or a relief society has authority over the ward relief society. What does having keys add to this authority?  Is it just more authority or is it something more? If it's something more what is that something more? If it's just authority how is it different that it has to be called something different?

I think that is more a reminder about who has the ultimate presiding authority- the final decision maker- in a given situation.  It defines the final authority so that there is no doubt, say between members of a presidency, about who makes the final decision 

[Hamba Tuhan]

Elder Nelson:

Quote

Priesthood is the authority of God delegated to man to minister for the salvation of men. “The power of directing these labors constitutes the keys of the Priesthood.” We distinguish between holding the priesthood and holding keys of the priesthood. When an individual is given keys, he does not receive additional priesthood. What he has is the right to direct the work of the priesthood ...

Those who hold the priesthood—Aaronic and Melchizedek—have authority to render priesthood service. As agents of the Lord, they have the right to perform sacred ordinances of the gospel. Keys authorize the performance of that service.

 

[Calm]

So there is priesthood authority and keys are the authority over that authority?

[CV75]

4 hours ago, Rain said:

I understand what priesthood means.  I understand how a bishop has authority over his ward or a relief society has authority over the ward relief society. What does having keys add to this authority?  Is it just more authority or is it something more? If it's something more what is that something more? If it's just authority how is it different that it has to be called something different?

Priesthood Keys (churchofjesuschrist.org)

"What are priesthood keys?

"Priesthood keys are the right to preside over and direct the Church within a jurisdiction. Keys usually apply to a geographic area, like a ward, stake, or mission. They also usually include authority over specific ordinances and activities (for instance, baptism, the sacrament, missionary work, and temple work)."

"Authority" is "the divine right to preach, act in the name of God and direct the Lord’s church." Authority in the Church (churchofjesuschrist.org)

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by CV75

[Rain]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Elder Nelson:

 

So this means it is just more authority right?

[Rain]

39 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Priesthood Keys (churchofjesuschrist.org)

"What are priesthood keys?

"Priesthood keys are the right to preside over and direct the Church within a jurisdiction. Keys usually apply to a geographic area, like a ward, stake, or mission. They also usually include authority over specific ordinances and activities (for instance, baptism, the sacrament, missionary work, and temple work)."

"Authority" is "the divine right to preach, act in the name of God and direct the Lord’s church." Authority in the Church (churchofjesuschrist.org)

 

So when Elder Oaks talked about women having authority in their callings how does a ward RS president without keys presiding and directing over her ward RS differ from the EQ president presiding over and directing his ward EQ?

Edited January 11, 2023 by Rain

[CV75]

53 minutes ago, Rain said:

So when Elder Oaks talked about women having authority in their callings how does a ward RS president without keys presiding and directing over her ward RS differ from the EQ president presiding over and directing his ward EQ?

From The Keys and Authority of the Priesthood (churchofjesuschrist.org): Priesthood keys direct women and men to serve in various callings in the kingdom and give them the authority to do so. Men and women who thus serve exercise this priesthood authority and have access to priesthood power. Only men who hold a priesthood office can officiate in a priesthood ordinance (with the temple exception).

So, my answer to your question is: A ward RS president thus presides and directs her ward RS activities without having to hold a priesthood office while the EQ president can only preside and direct his ward EQ if he holds a priesthood office (e.g., Elder, High Priest). The difference is that one holds a priesthood office and the other does not. A finer point is that the members of the EQ perform ordinances, and the members of the RS do not. For example, the bishop may direct the EQ president to assign a ministering brother from the quorum to a family that needs him to baptize, bless, administer the sacrament in their home, etc., but no such direction would be given the RS president for a RS member be so assigned. The two organizations serve different purposes in the kingdom.

[Rain]

12 minutes ago, CV75 said:

From The Keys and Authority of the Priesthood (churchofjesuschrist.org): Priesthood keys direct women and men to serve in various callings in the kingdom and give them the authority to do so. Men and women who thus serve exercise this priesthood authority and have access to priesthood power. Only men who hold a priesthood office can officiate in a priesthood ordinance (with the temple exception).

So, my answer to your question is: A ward RS president thus presides and directs her ward RS activities without having to hold a priesthood office while the EQ president can only preside and direct his ward EQ if he holds a priesthood office (e.g., Elder, High Priest). The difference is that one holds a priesthood office and the other does not. A finer point is that the members of the EQ perform ordinances, and the members of the RS do not. For example, the bishop may direct the EQ president to assign a ministering brother from the quorum to a family that needs him to baptize, bless, administer the sacrament in their home, etc., but no such direction would be given the RS president for a RS member be so assigned. The two organizations serve different purposes in the kingdom.

I really should ask when my sugar is not low and I can better think through what you are saying, but I'm asking anyway.  Are you saying that the difference is that those who have keys are only different because they have the authority of directing how and when ordinances can happen?

[Stormin' Mormon]

The keys are the right (or authority) to direct how, when, and where priesthood authority is to be used. 

In 2019, none of us could hold sacrament meetings in our homes.  Even though priesthood-holding heads of families had the authority to bless the sacrament, they didn't have the keys to direct when that ordinance would be performed.  In 2020, those holding the keys authorized at-home sacrament meetings, and so those with the authority to bless and administer the sacrament were free to then perform that ordinance.

Some priesthood usage does not require keys (father's blessings, blessings of healing or comfort, etc).  Those priesthood ordinance connected to saving ordinances (baptism, sacrament, temple, etc) requires that they only be performed when those holding the keys to those ordinances direct them to be performed.  Once so directed, anyone holding the authority can then perform the ordinance. 

[bluebell]

22 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

The keys are the right (or authority) to direct how, when, and where priesthood authority is to be used. 

In 2019, none of us could hold sacrament meetings in our homes.  Even though priesthood-holding heads of families had the authority to bless the sacrament, they didn't have the keys to direct when that ordinance would be performed.  In 2020, those holding the keys authorized at-home sacrament meetings, and so those with the authority to bless and administer the sacrament were free to then perform that ordinance.

Some priesthood usage does not require keys (father's blessings, blessings of healing or comfort, etc).  Those priesthood ordinance connected to saving ordinances (baptism, sacrament, temple, etc) requires that they only be performed when those holding the keys to those ordinances direct them to be performed.  Once so directed, anyone holding the authority can then perform the ordinance. 

That makes sense. 

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

So there is priesthood authority and keys are the authority over that authority?

Yes. Perfect definition. It's not about leadership, it's about the STRUCTURE of leadership, and who is in charge of making assignments etc.

President does this, first counselor does that, second counselor does that, etc.

Edited January 11, 2023 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

55 minutes ago, Rain said:

I really should ask when my sugar is not low and I can better think through what you are saying, but I'm asking anyway.  Are you saying that the difference is that those who have keys are only different because they have the authority of directing how and when ordinances can happen?

Pretty much..... thinking.... also who's in charge:

"Bro Jones could you stop by Zelda's house and give her a blessing, if not would you please call Bro Smith and see if he's available?"

Same thing as a RS pres. might say without "keys" TECHNICALLY, but she is ACTING on her authority to do her calling and was called by someone "with keys".

So it's pretty much semantics except the sister makes a visit and has a prayer while the bro visits and has a bit more formal prayer

The RS has authority to do her calling, the bro does too.

Same delegated authority, same procedures.  You figure out the difference 

But my sugar is low too... 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Only men who hold a priesthood office can officiate in a priesthood ordinance (with the temple exception).

What's that exception, remembering that women officiate in temple ordinances for women?

 

[bluebell]

21 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Pretty much..... thinking.... also who's in charge:

"Bro Jones could you stop by Zelda's house and give her a blessing, if not would you please call Bro Smith and see if he's available?"

Same thing as a RS pres. might say without "keys" TECHNICALLY, but she is ACTING on her authority to do her calling and was called by someone "with keys".

So it's pretty much semantics except the sister makes a visit and has a prayer while the bro visits and has a bit more formal prayer

The RS has authority to do her calling, the bro does too.

Same delegated authority, same procedures.  You figure out the difference 

But my sugar is low too... 

Is it all just semantics?  Because that's what I'm wondering. 

We have two people who are essentially doing the exact same thing, but one is using priesthood keys to do it and the other isn't.  If they are doing the same thing, and if the outcomes are the same, what exactly does the priesthood add?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I really should ask when my sugar is not low and I can better think through what you are saying, but I'm asking anyway.  Are you saying that the difference is that those who have keys are only different because they have the authority of directing how and when ordinances can happen?

Yes, I think that's a good summary. When authorized by his leader, an EQP can "direct" or assign a quorum member to perform an ordinance, and an RSP cannot.

[Rain]

45 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

What's that exception, remembering that women officiate in temple ordinances for women?

 

Are you asking @CV75 who this originally came from or are you asking me a question to teach me?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

What's that exception, remembering that women officiate in temple ordinances for women?

 

Yes (it's included in the link for Elder Oak's talk).

[gav]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Is it all just semantics?  Because that's what I'm wondering. 

We have two people who are essentially doing the exact same thing, but one is using priesthood keys to do it and the other isn't.  If they are doing the same thing, and if the outcomes are the same, what exactly does the priesthood add?

Priesthood adds covenanted responsibility...

Women generally shoulder the greater responsibility when it comes to child bearing and raising. Men tend to shirk responsibility, so in the case of priesthood they make an oath and covenant to put down the remote and get up off the couch.

Keys direct and administer the kingdom and are over and above the priesthood holders and all other delegations(including those to women).

Men are covenanted via the priesthood to serve full time where women, because of their other biological and other demanding responsibilities etc. are only called upon part time.

In a future state, as demands shift, women will also officiate as Queens and Priestesses.

Edited January 11, 2023 by gav

[CV75]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Pretty much..... thinking.... also who's in charge:

"Bro Jones could you stop by Zelda's house and give her a blessing, if not would you please call Bro Smith and see if he's available?"

Same thing as a RS pres. might say without "keys" TECHNICALLY, but she is ACTING on her authority to do her calling and was called by someone "with keys".

So it's pretty much semantics except the sister makes a visit and has a prayer while the bro visits and has a bit more formal prayer

The RS has authority to do her calling, the bro does too.

Same delegated authority, same procedures.  You figure out the difference 

But my sugar is low too... 

57 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Is it all just semantics?  Because that's what I'm wondering. 

We have two people who are essentially doing the exact same thing, but one is using priesthood keys to do it and the other isn't.  If they are doing the same thing, and if the outcomes are the same, what exactly does the priesthood add?

They both have authority to do their callings, but the EQ members with a priesthood office perform ordinances while the RS members have no priesthood office and do not perform ordinances. The EQ members need a president with the keys to direct them in this particular activity. The RS members do not perform ordinances, so their president does not require keys to issue assignments. Of course, there are many things that both EQPs and RSPs assign to members without a priesthood office or that do not involve / having nothing to do with performing ordinances, but the fine difference involves the administration and performance of ordinances. Both EQP and RSP operate under a "president" who has the keys to call them and give them assignments according to their presiding role. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by CV75

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, gav said:

Priesthood adds covenanted responsibility...

Women generally shoulder the greater responsibility when it comes to child bearing and raising. Men tend to shirk responsibility, so in the case of priesthood they make an oath and covenant to put down the remote and get up off the couch.

So men are given the priesthood because they are too lazy to do fulfill their responsibilities without having covenanted to do so? 

Wouldn't that mean that there is no functional difference between priesthood and non-priesthood activities or actions and the only difference is with who is involved (men vs. women)?

Edited January 11, 2023 by bluebell

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, CV75 said:

They both have authority to do their callings, but the EQ members with a priesthood office perform ordinances while the RS members have no priesthood office and do not perform ordinances. The EQ members need a president with the keys to direct them in this particular activity. The RS members do not perform ordinances, so their president does not require keys to issue assignments. Of course, there are many things that both EQPs and RSPs assign to members without a priesthood office or that involve performing ordinances, but the fine difference involves the ordinances. Both EQP and RSP operate under a "president" who has the keys to call them and give them assignments according to their presiding role. 

It's the bolded that I'm specifically asking about.

If conducting in a Deacon's quorum meeting requires the priesthood, why?  Conducting a meeting has nothing to do with using the priesthood or with any ordinances.

[mfbukowski]

13 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It's the bolded that I'm specifically asking about.

If conducting in a Deacon's quorum meeting requires the priesthood, why?  Conducting a meeting has nothing to do with using the priesthood or with any ordinances.

How can you lead an organization without being a member of it?

Teaching a boy how to lead is essential; so is teaching a girl of course, both are also taught in the youth programs.

Edited January 11, 2023 by mfbukowski

[gav]

16 minutes ago, bluebell said:

So men are given the priesthood because they are too lazy to do fulfill their responsibilities without having covenanted to do so? 

Wouldn't that mean that there is no functional difference between priesthood and non-priesthood activities or actions and the only difference is with who is involved (men vs. women)?

Sorry, added more after you replied, it's about full time vs part time. Men have a permanent calling/duty where women are only called and released from time to time as their circumstances and other commitments allow.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

So there is priesthood authority and keys are the authority over that authority?

You could say that and you just did.

Again it is the watch captain over the police.  Cops administering cops.

Why is this so hard?