What does keys of the priesthood add?

[gav]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

So (to make sure I understand), the keys that the DQP has pertain solely to the sacrament and to no other duties or responsibilities connected to being a Deacon or a president in that quorum?

Nope not solely. He is learning to exercise keys to administer a quorum and preside. Admittedly at this early stage of the game it is going to look like basic leadership but that is where the training starts.

[bluebell]

37 minutes ago, Balaam said:

What leads you to believe both people aren't using priesthood keys?  If both people are doing the exact same thing, how is one using priesthood keys and the other not?  Are both authorized by someone with keys to do what they are doing?

I can see this happening with people who are not members of our Church doing things that we do, while we have priesthood authority and they don't.  Is that what you are talking about here? 

The President of the Church authorizes what we can do and can't do, so if you're talking about members of our Church doing what they hae been authorized to do, everything we are authorized to do is authorized by someone with those keys.

I think that Rain summarized well, but one holds priesthood keys (the elder's quorum president) and the other doesn't, which is why I'm assuming that one is using them and the other isn't.

[bluebell]

25 minutes ago, Balaam said:

I remember some talks from President Nelson which made it pretty clear how women have and use the priesthood in all they do which they have been authorized to do.  I thought he did very well in dispelling some false notions of some men while also helping women to better understand how much they have and use priesthood keys.  All of the keys come down to us through the President of the Church, as they are given to him all the way up through the chain of command.  Peter, James and John were the first to receive all of the keys directly from Jesus, and Joseph Smith received the keys from them.  From Joseph they have been passed down through all of the Presidents until now President Nelson has them.  Everything we are authorized to do is inherent in the power of those keys and who they came from.  Including YW as well as YM functions.  All of it is tied to those keys. 

True. But, some ward callings require the person to have keys and others don't.  That is what we are specifically referring to.

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, gav said:

In the DQP example he is exercising keys that he holds, he is learning to use keys, in preparation for greater keys, roles and responsibilities. The RSP holds no keys but is acting under the direction and under delegation of keys by virtue of the fact that she was called and set apart. In her instance keys are still at work just not keys that she holds. this is no different from when an elder is acting on assignment from the EQP. That elder holds no keys of his own but keys are still being exercised.

So as Rain asked earlier, why are keys required for the EQP but not for the RS president.  She can function under the direction of delegated keys as you've stated.  Why can't the EQP function under delegated keys as well?

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, gav said:

Nope not solely. He is learning to exercise keys to administer a quorum and preside. Admittedly at this early stage of the game it is going to look like basic leadership but that is where the training starts.

So he's given keys to administer the sacrament but also just for practice?  Where can I read about him being given keys for practice?  I've never heard that before.

[gav]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

So as Rain asked earlier, why are keys required for the EQP but not for the RS president.  She can function under the direction of delegated keys as you've stated.  Why can't the EQP function under delegated keys as well?

RSP is not administering anything ordinance of salvation related. Neither is she being trained to hold more extensive keys later on.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

It's a confusing topic, especially because there have been lots of answers but not all of them agree with each other (which makes it seem that even the men are a little confused) or make sense when fleshed out.

 

"Mormons" confused about Doctrine?  

Even men can possibly be wrong but it is very very rare. 🧐

I have even seen it on this very thread!   🙄

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Buckeye said:

In my view, if you’re driving an organization - and RS, Primary Presidents, YW class presidents etc certainly are - then you must have a key.  

The issue is sensitive IMO because Joseph gave the RS keys and then subsequent leaders essentially took the keys back. There’s a hesitancy to acknowledge women’s authority because women don’t hold priesthood office so us men worry we won’t be able to control them if they have their own keys. Just one of the many reasons I support women’s ordination. 

This is a good article specifying what these keys were and still are: "Something Better" for the Sisters | Religious Studies Center (byu.edu) 

To do this, Jospeh Smith turned his own key.

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, gav said:

RSP is not administering anything ordinance of salvation related. Neither is she being trained to hold more extensive keys later on.

What ordinance is the EQ specifically administering that he needs keys?  I'll try to look that up and see what I can find.  

[Buckeye]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

My questions tend to stem more from the keys and priesthood of the quorums and how a deacons quorum operates any differently from, say, the YWs classes.  Or what the priesthood adds to the EQ that doesn’t exist in the RS.   

What does the priesthood or deacon priesthood keys add to a deacon’s quorum meeting that is absent from a YW’s meeting, for example?

The keys are different in the same ways the orgs are different. Take a ward with two deacons quorums for example. Exact same purpose but different YM. So different keys. 
 

As for substantive differences between an APQ set of keys and a YW set of “keys,” I see those orgs as largely overlapping - their principle purpose is to bring their youth to Christ - but there are some differences in how the groups do so. As the most glaring example, APQ benefit by having their members administer saving and non-saving ordinances - which in my experience is a powerful way to obtain a spiritual experiences and a testimony. YW have many tools too but are currently denied this very powerful one.  

Also, while I’m comfortable referring to YW class “keys” - to borrow President Oak’s language, what else could they be? - YW technically are never given keys in their settings apart. 

[gav]

38 minutes ago, bluebell said:

So he's given keys to administer the sacrament but also just for practice?  Where can I read about him being given keys for practice?  I've never heard that before.

Nope, you have missed the point, he has fully functional keys and they are crucial to passing the sacrament assignments and administration of the quorum. But at the level of a DCP, the exercise of those keys is limited to these simple things that to a RSP may just look like general leadership.

Keys are exercised and that is a key word.

The Aaronic priesthood is also a preparatory priesthood which administers the preparatory ordinances of the preparatory gospel.

This is all preparatory because it prepares us to come unto Christ and the Higher Law. It is also administered by the preparatory priesthood of young men preparing for the Higher Priesthood that administers the higher law.

Even for the Elder in the Melchizedek priesthood there are some aspects that are preparatory, the basic duties and ordinances prepare one to exercise keys and administer larger and larger bodies of the church and kingdom.

Edited January 11, 2023 by gav

[CV75]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

For anyone, what specific keys does an EQP hold?  Or a DQP?  Where can we find those listed?

This is a lot more thorough and specific than I expected:

3. Priesthood Principles (churchofjesuschrist.org)

3.3.2

3.4.1

3.4.1.1

3.4.3.1

4. Leadership and Councils in the Church of Jesus Christ

4.2.4

 

[Buckeye]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

So (to make sure I understand), the keys that the DQP has pertain solely to the sacrament and to no other duties or responsibilities connected to being a Deacon or a president in that quorum?

Actually, under DC 20 the deacons quorum has essentially only one authority - to “assist” the higher AP quorums. They (and teachers) are expressly prohibited from “administering” the sacrament. That’s reserved to priests. But somewhere along the line we got the idea (a good one in my view) that it would benefit all the YM to participate in the sacrament; we just had to tweak our definition of “administering” to be only the blessing part. 
 

My point is, when the DQP assigns a priesthood holder to pass, he does so not because scripture gives that job to deacons but because the bishop (who oversees the ordinance) has assigned the DQ to assist him in that fashion.  
 

Edit to add: DQ also get priesthood assignments to help gather fast offerings. That role also comes from the bishop as a means to assist in his priesthood responsibilities. YW, lacking priesthood office, are not invited to gather fast offerings. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Buckeye

[bluebell]

26 minutes ago, Balaam said:

So a Presidential calling vs some non-Presidential calling.  Okay.  I realize some office callings come stocked with some keys while some other's don't come stocked with any of their own, only to follow the directions of the authorized leaders.

Both are presidential callings. We are comparing the Elders Quorum president with the Relief Society president. 

[Buckeye]

59 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I believe that the church teaches that keys are required for an EQP to fulfill his calling though.  The keys are an aspect of his calling.

Correct. In any ward, there are at least 4 people explicitly given keys during their setting apart - EQP, Bishop, TQP, and DQP. The priests quorum president is the bishop; hence the YM assigned to lead that quorum is called an “assistant” and is not given keys. Some wards may also have a stake president, apostle, etc. But they have at least those four. 
 

Do women and young women hold keys for the orgs they run? I believe they effectively do. But don’t try saying “key” when you set them apart or you’ll be corrected. 
 

One significant difference I haven’t seen discussed yet is the requirement of keys for organizing lower orgs. Because bishops have keys they can organize AP quorums and set apart leaders. Same for YW classes. But all women’s orgs must be set up by a male priesthood holder. RSP can’t set apart her counselors or join in the that blessing. Make priesthood holders can join. 
 

Some of my fondest moments in church have been in helping to set apart my kids and ordain my sons. Those moments would have been even better if my wife was allowed to join.  

Edited January 11, 2023 by Buckeye

[Amulek]

59 minutes ago, Calm said:

But baptism and sacrament were ordinances being performed before, so he had to have had some keys.

Yes. Several, in fact. And some aren't what we typically think about when we are talking about keys.

For example, Moroni apparently bestowed upon Joseph Smith "the keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim." (D&C 27:5)

John the Baptist later restored the priesthood of Aaron, "which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins." (D&C 13)

Subsequently, Peter, James, and John brought back the Melchizedek Priesthood including the holy apostleship; they restored the keys of the kingdom; and they conferred the keys of the dispensation of the fulness of times. (D&C 27:12-13)

Then in the Kirtland temple, as recorded in D&C 110, we get the three big ones that people usually remember and associate with keys: Moses committing the keys of the gathering of Israel (v11), Elias committing the keys of the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham (v12), and finally Elijah who restored the keys of the sealing power (v13-16), by which the ordinances in the temple are bound in heaven as well as on earth, for both the living and the dead.

There may be other keys as well, but these are the main ones I have come across over the years in my study of the gospel. I suspect it may be by design, but I don't think I have ever seen a list of priesthood keys detailed all in one location in an official church publication. There very well may be such a list somewhere but I've yet to come across it.

 

[Mark Beesley]

I sometimes wonder why people struggle so with the concept of Priesthood Keys. I think it may be because the discussions are often non-specific. If one asks the question more discretely, for example, what authority and keys are required to perform a baptism as opposed to blessing the sick, one can see that the effect of the ordinance (one brings the person into the flock, the other is personal to the recipient), one might better begin to understand the purpose of keys.

Humility is essential to understanding Priesthood Keys.

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 hours ago, Rain said:

So this means it is just more authority right?

It means the divine right to direct how authority is used.

It also means many other things, practically, including revelation on behalf of those one presides over. I went to the temple a few days after being set apart as EQ president last year. As I sat in the endowment, I kept trying to pray for myself, but the Lord kept 'interrupting' me with a list of men/families who needed my attention and even what kind of attention each needed.

One was a man who apostatised publicly in a Facebook post a few years ago. I'd therefore written him off, but obedient to what I was told, I reached out to him, and he responded. We chatted a few more times, and then before Christmas, I asked if we could stop by to sing Christmas carols to his family. He said yes and even let me know the best time. As we finished, it was obvious that he felt the love of that act (maybe more?). The Elders have since visited with him a couple of times, and he's been open and friendly. The Lord knew this brother was ready to re-establish contact, and he told the key holder.

It happens like that all the time.

[Rain]

23 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It means the divine right to direct how authority is used.

It also means many other things, practically, including revelation on behalf of those one presides over. I went to the temple a few days after being set apart as EQ president last year. As I sat in the endowment, I kept trying to pray for myself, but the Lord kept 'interrupting' me with a list of men/families who needed my attention and even what kind of attention each needed.

One was a man who apostatised publicly in a Facebook post a few years ago. I'd therefore written him off, but obedient to what I was told, I reached out to him, and he responded. We chatted a few more times, and then before Christmas, I asked if we could stop by to sing Christmas carols to his family. He said yes and even let me know the best time. As we finished, it was obvious that he felt the love of that act (maybe more?). The Elders have since visited with him a couple of times, and he's been open and friendly. The Lord knew this brother was ready to re-establish contact, and he told the key holder.

It happens like that all the time.

This kind of experience happens with RSPs or YWP or PP or even me when with friends.  How is this different for someone holding a key?

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Balaam said:

Ah!  Okay, didn't catch that from earlier.  So are we agreed yet that RSPs hold and use priesthood keys even though they don't come stocked in their office callings?  Hmm, or maybe they do.  RSPs are authorized to do whatever they are authorized to do and they have and use keys to not only function but preside in their callings.  So in what sense might we think they do not have keys?  All keys are delegated so that doesn't rule anything out.  What would lead us to believe they don't have or use any keys? 

The church teaches explicitly that RS presidents do not hold keys and that EQ presidents do.  So that's what is leading me to believe that they don't have or use keys.

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 minutes ago, Rain said:

This kind of experience happens with RSPs or YWP or PP or even me when with friends.

Correct. Because those who hold and exercise priesthood keys are able to delegate to the presidents they call, set apart, and preside over.

Quote

How is this different for someone holding a key?

Well, for one, RS, YW and primary presidents cannot call or set apart others.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Mark Beesley said:

I sometimes wonder why people struggle so with the concept of Priesthood Keys. I think it may be because the discussions are often non-specific. If one asks the question more discretely, for example, what authority and keys are required to perform a baptism as opposed to blessing the sick, one can see that the effect of the ordinance (one brings the person into the flock, the other is personal to the recipient), one might better begin to understand the purpose of keys.

Humility is essential to understanding Priesthood Keys.

I understand this aspect of priesthood keys. It appears that Rain does as well though I don't want to speak for her. 

It's the other aspects of priesthood keys that are a bit more confusing to me.  For example, the EQP holds keys even though he seems to have the same responsibility when it comes to ordinances that every other elder has who doesn't hold keys.  What purpose does he hold keys when his calling is not connected to an ordinance?

[bluebell]

36 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It means the divine right to direct how authority is used.

It also means many other things, practically, including revelation on behalf of those one presides over. I went to the temple a few days after being set apart as EQ president last year. As I sat in the endowment, I kept trying to pray for myself, but the Lord kept 'interrupting' me with a list of men/families who needed my attention and even what kind of attention each needed.

One was a man who apostatised publicly in a Facebook post a few years ago. I'd therefore written him off, but obedient to what I was told, I reached out to him, and he responded. We chatted a few more times, and then before Christmas, I asked if we could stop by to sing Christmas carols to his family. He said yes and even let me know the best time. As we finished, it was obvious that he felt the love of that act (maybe more?). The Elders have since visited with him a couple of times, and he's been open and friendly. The Lord knew this brother was ready to re-establish contact, and he told the key holder.

It happens like that all the time.

What authority is used in the example you provided that would not exist for a RS president in the temple praying over the sisters that she leads? (I'm not trying to argue, but to understand what exists in the divine right to direct how authority is used that doesn't exist for a sister with the same responsibilities).

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Correct. Because those who hold and exercise priesthood keys are able to delegate to the presidents they call, set apart, and preside over.

Well, for one, RS, YW and primary presidents cannot call or set apart others.

I think she meant how would your temple experience be different for someone who didn't hold keys.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Mark Beesley said:

I sometimes wonder why people struggle so with the concept of Priesthood Keys. I think it may be because the discussions are often non-specific. If one asks the question more discretely, for example, what authority and keys are required to perform a baptism as opposed to blessing the sick, one can see that the effect of the ordinance (one brings the person into the flock, the other is personal to the recipient), one might better begin to understand the purpose of keys.

Humility is essential to understanding Priesthood Keys.

I don't understand why it needs to be discretely, but I actually did that before posting here, but understood no better. So given that there are many here who might be able to help me I asked.

Yes, humility is the key to understanding all of God's work, but I'm not sure how that answers my questions.