Phone apps to get into the church

[Rain]

DH (on the HC) just found out instead of keys people will have a phone app to get in the church.

Not liking the idea. As a leader (if I were one) I wouldn't want to either go open and close the church for activity days, or a wedding setup, or for someone to put stuff in the fridge for the ward party tomorrow and I wouldn't want to loan my phone to someone to do that.

And with space being a premium on my phone I don't want yet another app.

And then there is the idea that some people still don't have cell phones  - there is at least 1 woman in my ward who doesn't.

Is your area going to phone apps as well?

Edited December 12, 2022 by Rain

[Hamba Tuhan]

18 minutes ago, Rain said:

Is your area going to phone apps as well?

I wish! But I highly doubt it ...

[JustAnAustralian]

45 minutes ago, Rain said:

Is your area going to phone apps as well?

I asked our FM about this a few weeks ago.

(These comments are based on one FM area in Australia).

He said it was a key-fob based system they were looking at here (I think one building in the FM area had it). Access was centrally controlled by Area (i.e. not at the stake/ward level), and it was only entry doors/gates. So leaders would still need to carry their keys anyway to get into internal doors (for example cupboards, bishop/stake pres offices, clerk offices, HC rooms, etc). Essentially, double the stuff on your keyring, for the same amount of access.

Based on his comments, I went from supportive to non-supportive.

Edited December 12, 2022 by JustAnAustralian

[Freedom]

Fobs are a far more secure system than keys. if someone losses their key, you just cancel the fob. you can find in an  instant who a fob belongs to, who is accessing the building and when ect. The building can be locked remotely, or put on a timer so that the doors automatically lock at a certain time. If someone requires access to, for example, clean the building, they would not require a fob. A EQ or RS pres could open up the building app and unlock the door remotely to let them in. The key is to only allow a select few to have this ability, perhaps three people in a ward. If a building has more than one ward, then just one person per ward. add to this security cameras that can be viewed remotely. 

The phone does not act as a fob, but you can open up the security app to deactivate the door. Fobs are fobulous. 

 

[JustAnAustralian]

Deactivation of lost fobs is really the only one of those that would be a practical outcome. Like with keys members will still share fobs, or hand fobs on when they are released (rather than going via bishopric or stake presidency), then you'd get people cloning fobs (which is both easier and cheaper than getting a new security key cut).

And with everything going through Area, when things go wrong, it'd just be yet another situation where we get blamed and complained to about things outside of our control.

We would definitely find a system to remotely lock the buildings useful though.

[bluebell]

8 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

I asked our FM about this a few weeks ago.

(These comments are based on one FM area in Australia).

He said it was a key-fob based system they were looking at here (I think one building in the FM area had it). Access was centrally controlled by Area (i.e. not at the stake/ward level), and it was only entry doors/gates. So leaders would still need to carry their keys anyway to get into internal doors (for example cupboards, bishop/stake pres offices, clerk offices, HC rooms, etc). Essentially, double the stuff on your keyring, for the same amount of access.

Based on his comments, I went from supportive to non-supportive.

We’ve had the key fob for a few years. It’s handy because it’s quick and easy to get in, but yeah you still need all the millions of keys after you make it through the door. 

[bluebell]

7 hours ago, Freedom said:

Fobs are a far more secure system than keys. if someone losses their key, you just cancel the fob. you can find in an  instant who a fob belongs to, who is accessing the building and when ect. The building can be locked remotely, or put on a timer so that the doors automatically lock at a certain time. If someone requires access to, for example, clean the building, they would not require a fob. A EQ or RS pres could open up the building app and unlock the door remotely to let them in. The key is to only allow a select few to have this ability, perhaps three people in a ward. If a building has more than one ward, then just one person per ward. add to this security cameras that can be viewed remotely. 

The phone does not act as a fob, but you can open up the security app to deactivate the door. Fobs are fobulous. 

 

Our key fobs don’t have any remote access or  remote locking capabilities. We still have to borrow the key fob from someone if you aren’t assigned one, and we still have someone with the calling of making sure all the doors are locked at the end of the day. 

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, Rain said:

DH (on the HC) just found out instead of keys people will have a phone app to get in the church.

Not liking the idea. As a leader (if I were one) I wouldn't want to either go open and close the church for activity days, or a wedding setup, or for someone to put stuff in the fridge for the ward party tomorrow and I wouldn't want to loan my phone to someone to do that.

And with space being a premium on my phone I don't want yet another app.

And then there is the idea that some people still don't have cell phones  - there is at least 1 woman in my ward who doesn't.

Is your area going to phone apps as well?

I haven’t heard anything about this is our area. 

[InCognitus]

8 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Deactivation of lost fobs is really the only one of those that would be a practical outcome. Like with keys members will still share fobs, or hand fobs on when they are released (rather than going via bishopric or stake presidency), then you'd get people cloning fobs (which is both easier and cheaper than getting a new security key cut).

And with everything going through Area, when things go wrong, it'd just be yet another situation where we get blamed and complained to about things outside of our control.

We would definitely find a system to remotely lock the buildings useful though.

I'd be surprised if they could lock the buildings remotely, or at least not if they have doors like any of the chapels I've seen in Arizona or Utah.  

We had a key fob system in my ward in Arizona.  The building had three doors on each front side entrance, one door on each back side entrance, and two doors in the back of the building (it was a stake center design).  All of those doors could be manually unlocked from the inside to allow free entry (and they needed to be locked in the same way from the inside).  The entry using the key fob was only available on two specific front side doors.  So a person who had key fob access could enter through one of the two side front doors, and then unlock whatever doors needed to be unlocked (from the inside) for the particular meeting or activity.   In that system, there would be no way all the doors could be locked remotely.  I don't even think they could lock the two key fob doors automatically (they have a push and turn screw on the inside of the door to put it in an unlocked position).  We also had old style manual keys for opening the library, clerk's office or bishop's office, or storage cabinets (etc.) 

The advantage of key fobs is that it keeps track of what key is doing the entry, and it it can be deactivated if a key is lost.  So I liked the key fob system.

[JustAnAustralian]

5 hours ago, InCognitus said:

and it it can be deactivated if a key is lost.

What was the process for that for you? Did you need to go via area for any changes or did you get a local system to manage it? Also, did the stakes/wards just have a bunch of unallocated fobs around, or were they special deliveries as requested?

[JustAnAustralian]

duplicate

Edited December 12, 2022 by JustAnAustralian
Duplicate

[InCognitus]

19 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

What was the process for that for you? Did you need to go via area for any changes or did you get a local system to manage it? Also, did the stakes/wards just have a bunch of unallocated fobs around, or were they special deliveries as requested?

I wasn't involved in the management of the fobs, but I believe they were managed by the stake.  One of the counselors in the bishopric handled the changes to these for our ward, but he also happened to be involved at the stake level, so where the changes were actually made is a little blurry to me.  

We were assigned a set number of fobs based on a list of callings that required them.  And whenever someone was released and another person was called to take their place, the calling's specified fob was passed on to the new person.  I don't know if they then electronically changed the name of the person associated with the fob, or if it was just tracked by the calling (i.e. primary president, elder's quorum president, etc.), but I do know there was a way to identify access to the building by fob assignment.  We also had a couple of unallocated fobs available too.  And we had at least one situation where a person lost their fob key, and that key was deactivated.

Another advantage of the fob key system is that a key could be programmed to open multiple buildings in the stake.  In one calling I had, I was able to use the same key fob for our ward building to open another building in our stake for a funeral luncheon.  That multi-building access was controlled by calling type of course.

I'll be travelling to Arizona in a couple of weeks.  If I see the person who handled the key fobs when I attend Sacrament meeting on Christmas Sunday, I'll try to remember to ask him about how that worked (I'm curious too).   I'm in Utah now, and I haven't paid attention to how they do it in my ward here (other than I know that the doors have a way to unlock them from the inside).   And it's SNOWING here in Utah again today, and I can't wait to get back to Arizona for a visit  

[Amulek]

17 hours ago, Rain said:

DH (on the HC) just found out instead of keys people will have a phone app to get in the church.

I actually really like the idea of having an app for this. I don't know that it would replace keys completely, but for at least one door / entrance I could see it as being a really nice thing to have.

 

17 hours ago, Rain said:

Not liking the idea. As a leader (if I were one) I wouldn't want to either go open and close the church for activity days, or a wedding setup, or for someone to put stuff in the fridge for the ward party tomorrow and I wouldn't want to loan my phone to someone to do that.

I guess I'm kind of envisioning it working kind of like the Hilton app - though I'm sure other hotels have similar features - where you can give someone access to your digital key remotely. They just need to have the app on their phone as well, and then you can grant them access temporarily.

 

17 hours ago, Rain said:

And with space being a premium on my phone I don't want yet another app.

Well, it might not have to be a separate app. They might be able to bundle it in with the Tools app which lots of members have installed already.

 

17 hours ago, Rain said:

And then there is the idea that some people still don't have cell phones  - there is at least 1 woman in my ward who doesn't.

Yeah, that would be a limitation. And I think that's part of the reason why you wouldn't be able to fully replace keys - at least, not anytime soon.

But I do think it would be a nice addition for a lot of other people and potentially really helpful to have.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

17 hours ago, Rain said:

DH (on the HC) just found out instead of keys people will have a phone app to get in the church.

Not liking the idea. As a leader (if I were one) I wouldn't want to either go open and close the church for activity days, or a wedding setup, or for someone to put stuff in the fridge for the ward party tomorrow and I wouldn't want to loan my phone to someone to do that.

And with space being a premium on my phone I don't want yet another app.

And then there is the idea that some people still don't have cell phones  - there is at least 1 woman in my ward who doesn't.

Is your area going to phone apps as well?

Would you have to lend your phone? Couldn’t you lock/unlock remotely?

Also, will this be the only option? What about an on-premises keypad? 

[Scott Lloyd]

On 12/12/2022 at 7:16 AM, bluebell said:

We’ve had the key fob for a few years. It’s handy because it’s quick and easy to get in, but yeah you still need all the millions of keys after you make it through the door. 

As an asst. clerk, I have a fob for the external door by the bishop’s office and one key. The key gets me into the clerk’s office and the meetinghouse library. Can’t think of where else I would need to go. 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Rain]

9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Would you have to lend your phone? Couldn’t you lock/unlock remotely?

Also, will this be the only option? What about an on-premises keypad? 

Don't know yet.  The HC was just texting about it coming.  They may have talked about it in there meeting, but my husband missed it because he had covid. 

The remote access could be good in some way, but still could be a problem with scheduling.  Like if the person getting in needs to go at a time when the leader is in a meeting, drs appointment or driving.

[InCognitus]

I forgot to add, one disadvantage of the fob keys is that they don't work when there is a power failure (and I'm sure that would be the same using a phone app).  We had a power failure one time in our area, and someone needed to get into the church.  But there was at least one member of the bishopric that was assigned an old-style key that would open the door.  It wasn't an emergency, but it was good to know that there was still an option for entry in case of a power failure.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

As an asst. clerk, I have a fob for external door by the bishop’s office and one key. The key gets me into the clerk’s office and the meetinghouse library. Can’t think of where else I would need to go. 

Our key fobs only work on the external doors. The kitchen, the library, the cultural hall doors, and our closets all have different keys. 

[Arthur Vandelay]

My cannabis club uses Kisi.  Works nicely.

[The Nehor]

On 12/11/2022 at 11:48 PM, JustAnAustralian said:

I asked our FM about this a few weeks ago.

(These comments are based on one FM area in Australia).

He said it was a key-fob based system they were looking at here (I think one building in the FM area had it). Access was centrally controlled by Area (i.e. not at the stake/ward level), and it was only entry doors/gates. So leaders would still need to carry their keys anyway to get into internal doors (for example cupboards, bishop/stake pres offices, clerk offices, HC rooms, etc). Essentially, double the stuff on your keyring, for the same amount of access.

Based on his comments, I went from supportive to non-supportive.

That is odd unless you misunderstood. The transition to fobs usually means the inner doors are controlled by fobs and those who need inner door access get fobs with more access.

[bluebell]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

That is odd unless you misunderstood. The transition to fobs usually means the inner doors are controlled by fobs and those who need inner door access get fobs with more access.

We have no inner doors that work with our fobs. Only the outer doors. 

[rockpond]

Part of my job is managing multi-tenant office buildings and I'm seeing more and more of them move to keyless entry systems.  At some point, the cost of these systems (for both exterior and interior doors) will be less than or equivalent to the cost/hassle of dealing with keys.

Some advantages of going keyless:

• Ability to unlock/lock all entrances to a building from an app
• Notifications to appropriate members when a building is left open at a time when it shouldn't be along with knowing who entered (for example, a bishop accessing his office early morning).
• Scheduled lock/unlock of doors
• Better control of who has access

I've been attending church in the same building for about 15 years... somehow, we STILL keep making new copies of the keys to the building.  There are countless keys to the building floating around.  Countless.  But when I need to get into the shed where the snowblower is kept... nobody knows where that key is!  Digital access would mean that when you get released/called your building access instantly changes accordingly.  And you could certainly have people (bishopric, clerks, etc) who have the ability to grant temporary access to any ward member.

I think all the church buildings will move to this as the cost/benefit ratio warrants it in each area of the church.

[Eschaton]

I'd think like a keypad at the external doors would be a better solution. Someone in ward leadership could periodically update the code as people come in and out of different callings. 

[Stargazer]

On 12/12/2022 at 5:03 AM, Rain said:

DH (on the HC) just found out instead of keys people will have a phone app to get in the church.

Not liking the idea. As a leader (if I were one) I wouldn't want to either go open and close the church for activity days, or a wedding setup, or for someone to put stuff in the fridge for the ward party tomorrow and I wouldn't want to loan my phone to someone to do that.

And with space being a premium on my phone I don't want yet another app.

And then there is the idea that some people still don't have cell phones  - there is at least 1 woman in my ward who doesn't.

Is your area going to phone apps as well?

In my stake here in England we have key fobs. They are issued according to calling. My key fob for my calling as ward tech specialist lets me into my ward's building, but no other, and only to the building and not the bishop's or clerk's office. But in my calling as assistant stake clerk, my key fob lets me into every building in the stake, including all bishop's and clerk's offices.

My ward technology calling allows me to sign into the church network management site from anywhere and I can do things like turn on or off both wifi accounts.

Maybe they will eventually make it possible to unlock the building remotely via the internet instead of having to be there physically.

But eventually we will all have smartphones. And the only holdouts will be counted as odd ducks indeed.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Eschaton said:

I'd think like a keypad at the external doors would be a better solution. Someone in ward leadership could periodically update the code as people come in and out of different callings. 

As stated in my other post, we use key fobs coded to individual responsibilities. I'm in England.