David Bednar's recent conference talk is said to have been plagiarized

[MustardSeed]

19 hours ago, Brahms said:

Thank you for putting what I think into your words.  You may have done even better than I would have with my own thoughts. 

I know some people don't agree with this point I am about to make, but it is still true nonetheless.  Every good thought we get is from God, and by "we" I mean every person on this planet.  All people, like us. Yet how many of us give the glory to God whenever we get a good thought?  Not all of us do.  If we're really concerned about giving credit where credit is due we should really be thanking and crediting God with every good thing he gives us.  Including all of the food and water on this planet.  All 

Edited October 12, 2022 by MustardSeed

[Rain]

2 hours ago, Danzo said:

Lol,

Look,  I don't really care if you provide attributions on your posts or not, and I really don't want to go through your posts to look for missing attributions.  I like reading your posts the way they are. 

My point is no one in the real world outside academia is obsessed with providing the proper attribution to everything they say.  Almost every idea we have originated somewhere else but who has the time to meticulously look up and document everything. Following MLA or APA (or whatever guide you are using) is something only academics care about for the most part and those of us in the really world don't care about.  

 

Not to criticize your post above but to illustrate how you (Like everyone else in the real world)  aren't really concerned about attribution in your ordinary communications,  in the post above, you don't name the Jesuit priest who worked with the gang member, you don't put the date published for the book or the publisher, you don't name the 3 books that are titled with a quote from people he worked with.

 

Gregory Boyle.  I don't know who the person who said the title yet. I haven't read that far.  

I did debate on saying his name, but since I didn't actually quote him or use his ideas then I wasn't sure it was needed especially since I did give the title of the book.

In all honesty I was really upset with your post for some reason so I chose to write before thinking and that wasn't good.  I think it was the laughter over something that actually is important to me. My feelings were  odd because it so against everything I have been learning from the interview and the book and I find there is much truth in the things I am learning.

It would be nice for people to have a conversation about attribution separate from the Elder Bednar talk since there are defensive/accusation issues that are involved, but I don't think that is possible at this time on the board.  

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Rain

[Rain]

2 hours ago, Brahms said:

Thank you for putting what I think into your words.  You may have done even better than I would have with my own thoughts. 

I know some people don't agree with this point I am about to make, but it is still true nonetheless.  Every good thought we get is from God, and by "we" I mean every person on this planet.  All people, like us. Yet how many of us give the glory to God whenever we get a good thought?  Not all of us do.  If we're really concerned about giving credit where credit is due we should really be thanking and crediting God with every good thing he gives us.  Including all of the food and water on this planet.  All good things.

I've been thinking about this as well.  There are definitely times when my mouth has been filled.  Definitely times when I have been inspired.  God has given me everything.

Rhetorical questions here. But how does that really work?  Because if we are just regurgitating everything God gave us then how do we grow?  

If we look at the parable of the talents it is not this way.  We are given a talent and do something with it so we owe everything to God because we can't double the talent without having it in the first place.  If we just regurgitated the one talent back to him we wouldn't be doing what he wanted us to do with it.  He actually wants us to grow it!

And I think he wants us to see the acts of others as well.  Not so we can worship them or hold them in esteem, but so we can be grateful and in seeing them they point us to Him. When we recognize others we see where God is in them.  We see the light shining. The trick is not to change attribution and gratitude into worship and to be grateful for the talent God gave us and not pridefully say it is all mine.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, teddyaware said:

s if you don’t delight in every seeming foible and perceived imperfection you can find in the Church and it’s leaders.

You haven’t been paying attention to Seeking’s posts if you think this is his attitude. While leaning critical, he is generally pretty well balanced and fair (on occasion I have been a bit surprised he was as negative as he was, but he is one of the posters I use for my reality checks to make sure I am not missing something).

[california boy]

4 hours ago, Brahms said:

Thank you for putting what I think into your words.  You may have done even better than I would have with my own thoughts. 

I know some people don't agree with this point I am about to make, but it is still true nonetheless.  Every good thought we get is from God, and by "we" I mean every person on this planet.  All people, like us. Yet how many of us give the glory to God whenever we get a good thought?  Not all of us do.  If we're really concerned about giving credit where credit is due we should really be thanking and crediting God with every good thing he gives us.  Including all of the food and water on this planet.  All good things.

Are you saying that humans are incapable of having a good thought on their own???

This seems so fundamentalist kind of thinking that it is the kind of thing that really puts me off organized religion.  There is absolutely no way I can believe that God so micromanages everyone on this earth that he is constantly giving every single good thought into peoples heads since the beginning of time.  

Or is this just one of those "we owe everything we can possibly think of to God" kind of statements.

[Bernard Gui]

15 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Can you point to a single post in this thread that suggests he should be cancelled, or is this more of your persecution complex? 

Also how does one ask Elder Bednar a question?

Obviously more of my persecution complex. Why need you ask? I took lessons when I was young.

Write him a letter.

Are you saying that when you first saw this story your heart didn’t go pitter-pat in hopes of yet another PR disaster for the Church and the potential embarrassment and diminution of one of its prime leaders? Not even for a nanosecond? If so, good on ya, mate! BTW, I appreciate your restraint in not bashing on Elder Biden. This is not the only place this situation is being discussed.

The point being, 

Quote

Once again folks jump to huge conclusions before any of the facts are known. This is the communication scourge of our times. 

As evidenced in this discussion, no one has the facts, so speculation runs rampant. Why not wait for more information before jumping to conclusions? 

 

Quote

 

Church leaders have made mistakes in their General Conference addresses, though it’s rare for the church to cite them. One of the few examples, he said, involved the late Paul H. Dunn, a former church elder who was censured for making up stories about playing major league baseball and serving in combat. They are even more reluctant to admit if they have made a mistake or were careless with their words, said Mason. “They are just not wired to do that,” he said. 

This is fairly serious and very disappointing because its sloppy or lazy at best, not to mention hypocritical for a former university president to do it. Spiritually its disheartening because a prophet, seer and revelator, apparently felt the need to rely on some random preacher for ideas and explanation of scripture, and then didn't even cite his source properly. On top of all that, the people on this board blame the messenger. Its not fake news or petty. Plagiarism is serious for anyone participating in the sharing of ideas, especially for oracles of God who claim that their ideas are divinely inspired. The same practices have ended the careers of politicians and generals. I agree there are lots of fatuous criticisms of the church and church leaders. This is not one of them. 

I'd say its even worse for Elder Bednar, because he was plagiarizing, a type of stealing, for a talk in his official capacity as one sent forth from God. I'm stunned at the people here minimizing that. 

So school and church officials think plagiarism is super serious to the point that Elder Bednar calls you a dishonest and unethical "failure" and "waste." Yet the reactions on this board to Elder Bednar's plagiarism are...more mild. (And some even make jokes about calling snopes or mock the concept of citing sources). Comparing the above quotes to the minimizing on this board, I guess plagiarism is only wrong when students at school do it, but its no big deal when apostles of the Lord do it. 

Some excellent scholars have been guilty of plagiarism. The most tragic case I can think of in recent years is that of biblical scholar Peter T. O'Brien, who wrote five acclaimed NT commentaries and had all of them—his entire life's work—taken out of print and pulpedbecause he failed to attribute sources correctly. He's 86 now. He will never come back from this. In a better world, Elder Bednar would acknowledge his error and apologize, but that isn't the Church's way. So, we get the usual deflections and excuses, and the messenger is duly shot.

And of course there are things like this from Pres. Woodruff. Which seems to point to the inerrancy of God's appointed in leading people astray? President Wilford Woodruff stated: “I say to Israel, The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of the Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God.”

 

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Rain]

22 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Obviously more of my persecution complex. Why need you ask? I took lessons when I was young.

Write him a letter.

Are you saying that when you first saw this story your heart didn’t go pitter-pat in hopes of yet another PR disaster for the Church and the potential embarrassment and diminution of one of its prime leaders? Not even for a nanosecond? If so, good on ya, mate! BTW, I appreciate your restraint in not bashing on Elder Biden.

He must be really busy being both president and apostle now! 😁

22 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

This is not the only place this situation is being discussed.

The point being, 

As evidenced in this discussion, no one has the facts, so speculation runs rampant. Why not wait for more information before jumping to conclusions? 

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Rain

[Kenngo1969]

26 minutes ago, Rain said:

He must be really busy being both president and apostle now! 😁

 

I didn't say it!  I didn't!  

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Why not wait for more information before jumping to conclusions? 

I find it understandable most do not wait before speculating as it is highly unlikely given the Church’s past behaviour any explanation will be given, even if changes are made.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I find it understandable most do not wait before speculating as it is highly unlikely given the Church’s past behaviour any explanation will be given, even if changes are made.

Perhaps, but I don’t think that is an excuse for rushing to judgment.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

He must be really busy being both president and apostle now! 😁

 

I despise fill-in-the-word features! 😬

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I didn't say it!  I didn't!  

But you were thinking it! 😇

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

... BTW, I appreciate your restraint in not bashing on Elder Biden. ...

 

3 hours ago, Rain said:

He must be really busy being both president and apostle now! 😁

 

 

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I didn't say it!  I didn't!  

 

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

I despise fill-in-the-word features! 😬

I hear you, Brother.  I hear you.  When is Computer Literatissimo going to upload the performance you promised me I could see?  I await, on the edge of my seat, with 'bated breath, all aquiver!   

[Kenngo1969]

43 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

But you were thinking it! 😇

Shhhh!!!  

[Bernard Gui]

46 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

 

 

 

I hear you, Brother.  I hear you.  When is Computer Literatissimo going to upload the performance you promised me I could see?  I await, on the edge of my seat, with 'bated breath, all aquiver!   

I’m in Korea until the weekend. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Write him a letter.

Seriously? So Bednar, who was contacted by the press had no comment, but is going to respond to a letter? When the church explicitly discourages contacting general authorities directly. Surely you joke. 

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Are you saying that when you first saw this story your heart didn’t go pitter-pat in hopes of yet another PR disaster for the Church and the potential embarrassment and diminution of one of its prime leaders? Not even for a nanosecond? If so, good on ya, mate! BTW, I appreciate your restraint in not bashing on Elder Biden. This is not the only place this situation is being discussed.

Honest first reaction was, that doesn’t sound right. Read the article, and thought honest mistake, but typical church behavior. Silently correct, get defensive, don’t apologize. Then I read the thread. Members who didn’t read the article point out the footnotes that were added as proof plagiarism didn’t happen. One particular member with a background in journalism essentially called it fake news by suggesting snopes should debunk it. I see additional posters talking about how Elder Bednar probably wasn’t even responsible for the footnotes. This left me incredulous. I was taught that General Conference was to be treated as scripture for our times and somehow the author of such scripture isn’t somehow responsible for its content is patently absurd to me. So I posted. 

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

The point being, 

As evidenced in this discussion, no one has the facts, so speculation runs rampant. Why not wait for more information before jumping to conclusions? 

 

 

Because we have all the facts we need and all the facts we will get. The church does not apologize. Elder Bednar’s talk was issued with 28 footnotes. Four paragraphs in the talk were basically copied and pasted (with minor word changes) from Reid. These paragraphs weren’t cited. These paragraphs weren’t sequential. There were footnotes in between. There is no editing error that I can conceive of that would remove four non sequential footnotes. So that leaves two options. Bednar made a mistake, or there is a malicious church employee that decided to take four of five Reid footnotes out. I find the latter extremely implausible. 
 

And the idea that Bednar is not responsible for ensuring the proper citations in his talk because he delegated it to an underling is simply a non-starter for me. It’s his talk. His name is on it. It’s his job. 
 

The only things wrong here, are one, the lack of acknowledgement by Bednar, taking ownership for what must have been a simple easy to make error. And two, the knee jerk defensive reactions from certain defenders here. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding

[SeekingUnderstanding]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I’m in Korea until the weekend. 

Korea is amazing! Hope you are enjoying your stay. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Imagine how different this thread would have gone with a statement like this from Bednar’s twitter:

”It was brought to my attention that citations were left out of my published conference address. Reid’s article was very helpful in formulating my sermon and I sincerely regret giving anyone the impression that his thoughts were my own. As a university president I know better than most the necessity of proper citation and I additionally apologize to my former students who I may have let down. The error was inadvertent, but I will strive to do better. 
 

Humbly,

David Bednar”

 

I can’t see any downsides and such a statement would increase my esteem of the man substantially. 

[HappyJackWagon]

46 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Imagine how different this thread would have gone with a statement like this from Bednar’s twitter:

”It was brought to my attention that citations were left out of my published conference address. Reid’s article was very helpful in formulating my sermon and I sincerely regret giving anyone the impression that his thoughts were my own. As a university president I know better than most the necessity of proper citation and I additionally apologize to my former students who I may have let down. The error was inadvertent, but I will strive to do better. 
 

Humbly,

David Bednar”

 

I can’t see any downsides and such a statement would increase my esteem of the man substantially. 

Exactly right. An acknowledgement, apology and correction would put this thing to bed very quickly. 

I don't believe these facts are disputed:

   1-Plagiarism is improper and unprofessional (if not dishonest) 

   2-Bednar used large portions of Reid's sermon in his own General Conference Talk

   3-Proper attribution was not given at the time of the talk

   4-Footnotes were added to the written talk

I think most people could accept that a mistake was made and would quickly move on but now the original mistake is only a portion of the overall problem. The lack of accountability by Bednar himself, as well as members who suddenly pretend like such things shouldn't matter speaks to larger problems in the church. One of these problems is the repeated inability of the Church as an organization or its leaders individually to be accountable to anyone or to apologize & repent when necessary. I believe that kind of a culture within ANY organization would be viewed as unethical and toxic.

[Kenngo1969]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I’m in Korea until the weekend. 

Goodness, gracious!  I'll bet (or at least, I would if I were a betting man ) that there's a story behind that!  I look forward to being regaled with tales of your travels!   (Enjoy the kimchi!)  And may they be safe travels, My Friend.  May they be safe travels.

[jkwilliams]

21 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Exactly right. An acknowledgement, apology and correction would put this thing to bed very quickly. 

I don't believe these facts are disputed:

   1-Plagiarism is improper and unprofessional (if not dishonest) 

   2-Bednar used large portions of Reid's sermon in his own General Conference Talk

   3-Proper attribution was not given at the time of the talk

   4-Footnotes were added to the written talk

I think most people could accept that a mistake was made and would quickly move on but now the original mistake is only a portion of the overall problem. The lack of accountability by Bednar himself, as well as members who suddenly pretend like such things shouldn't matter speaks to larger problems in the church. One of these problems is the repeated inability of the Church as an organization or its leaders individually to be accountable to anyone or to apologize & repent when necessary. I believe that kind of a culture within ANY organization would be viewed as unethical and toxic.

I don't expect any kind of acknowledgement, let alone an apology (see President Oaks's opinion about apologies). What I find interesting is why Elder Bednar was quoting a leader of an obscure, fringe religious group. How does one even come across such stuff?

[Senator]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

What I find interesting is why Elder Bednar was quoting a leader of an obscure, fringe religious group. How does one even come across such stuff?

That was my thought as well.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

23 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Plagiarism is improper and unprofessional (if not dishonest)

I would add dishonest when intentional, which I personally don’t think there is anyway that is the case here. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

6 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I don't expect any kind of acknowledgement, let alone an apology (see President Oaks's opinion about apologies). What I find interesting is why Elder Bednar was quoting a leader of an obscure, fringe religious group. How does one even come across such stuff?

 

3 minutes ago, Senator said:

That was my thought as well.

Google?

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

 

Google?

I think so, but you would think they'd be a little more selective in whom they quote. Guess not.