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A gender related question


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On 8/8/2022 at 11:46 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

I find it fascinating that, according to the pride flag charts you recently posted, God appears to be very busy at this particular historical moment creating people with a plethora of novel sexualities that don't conform with His plan: 'Leather, Latex, BDSM', 'Pony', 'Schrodigender', etc. It will be interesting to see what new and exciting sexualities He will dream up and then place inside His mortal offspring in the next few years -- almost certainly ones that we haven't even dared imagine yet!

*pssstt* Not all flags are for sexualities.

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19 hours ago, california boy said:

You do realize that there are far more people born intersex then they are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  Does that make being a member of the Church unimportant and dismissive??

I see a person born intersex in a different category than a person with gender dysphoria. Person may feel uncertain about their sexual identity,  and some become convinced they were born with the wrong body type and become ready to resort to surgery or other medical treatments that often do harm to the persons long term happiness and well being. 

If Latter Day Saints, a religious minority, were forcing people to adopt their religious standards and beliefs I and most others would find it offensive. The fact that we don't  impose ourselves on others in that way doesn't make our Church unimportant or something to dismiss.

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34 minutes ago, Risingtide said:

I see a person born intersex in a different category than a person with gender dysphoria. Person may feel uncertain about their sexual identity,  and some become convinced they were born with the wrong body type and become ready to resort to surgery or other medical treatments that often do harm to the persons long term happiness and well being. 

If Latter Day Saints, a religious minority, were forcing people to adopt their religious standards and beliefs I and most others would find it offensive. The fact that we don't  impose ourselves on others in that way doesn't make our Church unimportant or something to dismiss.

Just the fact that there are intersex'd people gives me pause to think it can be generated in their minds too. 

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On 8/12/2022 at 2:30 PM, manol said:

Where I'm going to go in this post isn't where your focus was, but the idea that "our spirits [or aspects thereof]... exist elsewhere" is imo a most interesting one, even if we ultimately end up back at "who actually knows?"   The reason I think excursions down such rabbit holes can be useful is because we cannot believe that which we cannot even conceive as being possible, so as an exercise let's try expanding our hypothetical boundaries of "what's possible".   Like the cave explorer with a rope around her or his waist, we still have our intellect and the Spirit to pull us back if we run into danger.  On the other hand if we DO come across something useful, some viewpoint which serves our highest intentions at this time, then the exploration may have been more than just idle entertainment.

There are two lines of thinking I'm aware of which suggest the possibility of our spirits, or at least a substantial portion or aspect of our spirits, actually existing elsewhere, while this aspect of which we are consciously aware is existing/participating here on a Telestial-level world.  One such line of thinking is old, and the other is new:

The traditional Hawaiian thought system includes a belief in a Higher Self called the "Aumakua".  Briefly, the Aumakua is not only elsewhere but is also a shared Higher Self, sort of like branches may share the same vine, or body parts may share the same body, to borrow a couple of New Testament metaphors.  Here is a description of the Aumakua, cut-and-pasted from the website livinginhawaii.com:

  • The high self appears to be comparable to Freud’s super-ego in that it knows the rules that were learned over time and is like the parent in that it looks at all the selves or minds and takes into consideration all the information before acting or making decisions.
  • This higher self lives at a higher plane of consciousness that is said to exist outside of the limitations of the physical body.
  • It will not intervene in the day to day life of the individual unless asked to do so.
  • Not interfering until being asked appears to be a cosmic law that the high self must follow.
  • This mind or self expresses all the divine qualities like compassion, patience, love, forgiveness
  • Considered to be a combined community of spirits
  • Considered to be a perfect blending of masculine and feminine, an androgynous self.
  • Considered to have individual identity and be a blending of all other high selves at the same time. Interconnected consciousness.

I don't have anything to add to this - imo this description speaks for itself quite well. 

What might make traditional Hawaiian beliefs of some interest in the context of Mormon thought is the possibility that the Hawaiians are among the descendants of Hagoth's expedition (Alma 63:5-8). 

Near death experiencers sometimes report experiencing a oneness with a shared higher self or even a oneness with "all that is" which imo is not inconsistent with the Aumakua concept.

The other, newer line of thinking which speculates that "we" may actually be "elsewhere" is the idea that this world is a simulation.  This is fascinating to me because it's almost like a quasi-spirituality paradigm which is plausible to the likes of Elon Musk and Neil deGrasse Tyson (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmcrG7ZZKUc).  If we look at the increasing realism of video game starting with Pong fifty years ago, and then extrapolate that trend forward for a million years or a billion years or whatever, the creation of virtual reality "games" which are indistinguishable from reality is quite plausible.  Looking through the lens of what we know about video games, we would expect a simulation to be pixelated; to have a refresh rate; and to have a beginning.   The pixel size would be the Planck length; the refresh rate would be the Planck time; and the beginning of the simulation would be the Big Bang.

Where my own version of this paradigm diverges from Musk and Tyson is this:  I would characterize us as the existing-outside-the-simulation "players of the game", rather than as "non-player characters" or "lines of code" existing only within the simulation.   My argument to Musk and Tyson would go something like this:  Given that immersive EXPERIENCE is more interesting and productive than watching a simulation, it makes more sense that advanced beings would create a PARTICIPATORY simulation, like an interactive indistinguishable-from-reality "game", rather than a hyper-realistic simulation which simply runs on its own. 

We have no way of knowing whether this paradigm (or something similar) is "true", but if we take Elon Musk's focus (saving humanity) and accomplishments (which are intended to serve that end) as an example, then the concept of this world being a simulation is arguably a "tree" which can bear "good fruit".  

Looking at the "this is a simulation" idea through an LDS-tinted lens, we might see the simulation as a "test"; we might see our unawareness of having existence outside of the simulation as "the Veil"; and we might see the seemingly quasi-random (and unfair!) conditions and events of our existences as being the particular challenges selected by each player for the character he or she is playing as, all ultimately working together for our good.  In this scenario, how we play our role arguably matters more than "how important" that role appears to be from within the simulation (something implied by David O. McKay's embracing of the wisdom engraved on the walls of Sterling Castle in Scotland:  "What 'er thou art, act well thy part").  Note also that in the Temple the idea that our "real name" (or "real names") is (are) actually something other than the name we go by during our Earth life is not only introduced, it comes up as an important part of the endowment ceremony more than once... implying that "who or what we really are" is more than "who or what we seem to be". 

To the best of my knowledge none of the above can be objectively proven, but if any of it can serve our highest intentions for now, then it arguably has utility.  

I've thought from time to time that our spirit bodies and physical bodies do not exist at the same time. Basically, we are "intelligences" (self-aware entities) which are attached to bodies in order to act and interact. I've thought that the spirit body was the first stage, but it was disassembled when we became enfleshed, and our third form will be a combination of the two types of matter to which we have previously been attached. 

The Aumakua model is worth some thought though. 

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3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Just the fact that there are intersex'd people gives me pause to think it can be generated in their minds too. 

I think there is a spectrum of propensities within people. Some boys are naturally more masculine some tend to have traits generally viewed as feminine. A person born with a male body and some feminine traits doesn't a female make. The same is true in my mind for girls born with what is generally considered masculine propensities. 

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On 8/7/2022 at 2:25 PM, Fether said:

“Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.”

It is unfortunate that the word gender is used here, rather than sex.  Sex and gender are not the same thing. And given that gender is an entirely social artifact that places expectations upon males and females within a given society.

 

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On 8/7/2022 at 2:42 PM, The Nehor said:

If God did not take steps to make sure everyone’s sexuality was in conformity with His plan I see little reason to believe He was strict on avoiding all gender mistakes

What is a gender mistake?  That a girl likes trucks?  That a boy likes frilly dresses?  Pink or blue?

Clearly there are "mistakes" in regard to sex. As can be seen with rare conditions. But given that gender is essentially make believe, there can be no mistake.  Who decides?

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1 hour ago, Ipod Touch said:

Most men who claim gender dysphoria are actually manifesting a sexual paraphelia.  It is well-understood and called autogynophelia.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22005209/

I'm not sure one can say that "most" such men have that paraphilia. The article you cited suggests there's no consensus among researchers.

Edited by jkwilliams
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1 hour ago, Ipod Touch said:

What is a gender mistake?  That a girl likes trucks?  That a boy likes frilly dresses?  Pink or blue?

Clearly there are "mistakes" in regard to sex. As can be seen with rare conditions. But given that gender is essentially make believe, there can be no mistake.  Who decides?

I used the incorrect term. I should have said that there is no guarantee that God put everyone in a body matching their premortal sex.

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21 hours ago, Risingtide said:

I see a person born intersex in a different category than a person with gender dysphoria. Person may feel uncertain about their sexual identity,  and some become convinced they were born with the wrong body type and become ready to resort to surgery or other medical treatments that often do harm to the persons long term happiness and well being. 

There are many in this world that would say a similar thing about joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  People who have a different perspective see the Church as being quite harmful and will lead to long term unhappiness.  I believe that it can be very harmful for a person who is gay to be involved in the Church.  I have seen and experienced more unhappiness and long term issues from people who were LGBT and Mormon.  Some have even resorted to suicide as what they thought was their only resort.

21 hours ago, Risingtide said:

If Latter Day Saints, a religious minority, were forcing people to adopt their religious standards and beliefs I and most others would find it offensive. The fact that we don't  impose ourselves on others in that way doesn't make our Church unimportant or something to dismiss.

Just what kind of force are people using on you concerning gender dysphoria or intersex issues?  Showing respect for their choices?  Asking you to consider using the proper name in addressing them?  You know, like asking people to not call them Mormon and allow them to worship and live their lives as they see fit?  Sorry, but the Church is using the EXACT kinds of demands on people that don't share their same perspective.  

I don't get how a member of the Church can not relate to someone who has gender dysphoria.  The issues might be different, but the demands and the way people view both are pretty similar.  

And besides all of this, the data shows that there are more intersex people in this world than members of the Church.  The article was not talking about gender dysphoria.  From the article

Quote

According to experts, around 1.7% of the population is born with intersex traits – comparable to the number of people born with red hair.

 

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25 minutes ago, california boy said:

There are many in this world that would say a similar thing about joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  People who have a different perspective see the Church as being quite harmful and will lead to long term unhappiness.  I believe that it can be very harmful for a person who is gay to be involved in the Church.  I have seen and experienced more unhappiness and long term issues from people who were LGBT and Mormon.  Some have even resorted to suicide as what they thought was their only resort.

At least among teens in Utah, being LDS and gay, the rates of suicidal thoughts and behaviors was lower than non-LDS Utah gay teens. Granted, Utah is still bad for suicidal thoughts and behaviors overall.
https://psycnet.apa.org/fulltext/2021-90434-001.html

This 2019 article shows that the trends existed the few years earlier too and makes the case that "All of us must acknowledge the difficulties of others and work to help them feel welcome and loved. Those refusing to acknowledge LGBTQ youths as a vulnerable group ignore the evidence and perpetuate inaction. At the same time, those who primarily attribute heightened Utah suicide rates to LGBTQ youths and the church are unintentionally making it harder to address this pressing problem that will require us all to come together." (emphasis added)
https://www.deseret.com/2019/5/7/20672662/guest-opinion-the-church-and-lgbt-youth-suicide-inaccurate-claims-may-do-more-harm-than-good

 

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3 hours ago, Nofear said:

At least among teens in Utah, being LDS and gay, the rates of suicidal thoughts and behaviors was lower than non-LDS Utah gay teens. Granted, Utah is still bad for suicidal thoughts and behaviors overall.
https://psycnet.apa.org/fulltext/2021-90434-001.html

This 2019 article shows that the trends existed the few years earlier too and makes the case that "All of us must acknowledge the difficulties of others and work to help them feel welcome and loved. Those refusing to acknowledge LGBTQ youths as a vulnerable group ignore the evidence and perpetuate inaction. At the same time, those who primarily attribute heightened Utah suicide rates to LGBTQ youths and the church are unintentionally making it harder to address this pressing problem that will require us all to come together." (emphasis added)
https://www.deseret.com/2019/5/7/20672662/guest-opinion-the-church-and-lgbt-youth-suicide-inaccurate-claims-may-do-more-harm-than-good

 

We don't really know how many suicides have been by distraught LGBT members of the Church, which is why I only said some have taken this route.  I am not using Utah suicide data that requires some speculation rather than actual cases like those listed below.

Quote

 

Carlyle Marsden (1976) — BYU music professor Marsden died by suicide[43] two days after being outed by an arrest for alleged homosexual activity.[44][45][46]

Unnamed (1980s) — A gay BYU student died by suicide a few months into a mixed-orientation temple marriage encouraged by his stake president Richard Cracroft who was a BYU professor. Cracroft later stated in reference to the event that, "admittedly, not many of us [church leaders] know how to counsel homosexuals."[47]

Unnamed (1987) — Painter Randall Lake (who was gay and had married a woman in an LDS temple before leaving the marriage) produced several portraits of suicide including one of his Mormon boyfriend who had hung himself a few days after he was ostracized when they both came out.[48]

Stuart Matis (2000) — 32-year-old Matis, a gay Mormon active in the church, died by suicide on 25 February 2000 on the steps of a California church stake center building where the apostle Jeffrey Holland was scheduled to speak that day.[12]: 81 [49][50] His death came during the height of the LDS Church's fight to ban same-sex marriage in California with Proposition 22, also known as Knight's Initiative.[51][52] Shortly before his death he wrote a 12-page letter to his cousin in which he states that when he heard the church was asking members to donate time and money in support of Prop 22 he "cried for hours in [his] room" and he felt that the church's positions created an environment "hostile for young gay Mormons." The letter also stated "straight members have absolutely no idea what it is like to grow up gay in this church.... It is a life of constant torment, self-hatred and internalized homophobia."[53] The same month he also wrote a letter to the editor that was published in BYU's newspaper[28][54] pleading for the acceptance of homosexual individuals in response to a letter published five days before[55] which had compared homosexuality to pedophilia, bestiality and Satanism.[56] Right before his death he wrote a note stating, "The church has no idea that ... there are surely boys and girls on their callused hands and knees imploring God to free them of their pain. They hate themselves ... God never intended me to be straight. Hopefully, my death might be a catalyst for some good."[57][58]

D.J. Thompson (2000) — Two weeks after Stuart's death a 33-year-old gay Mormon man in Florida died by suicide after writing a note referencing Stuart's death. The note stated that Proposition 22 was the "last straw in my lifelong battle to see peace in the world."[59][60]

Clay Whitmer (2000) — Three weeks after Stuart's death, another gay Mormon in California who was involved in his church community was a victim of suicide. Whitmer, who had become close friends with Matis while the two were serving an LDS mission in Italy had attempted suicide six times over the space of several years, but died by suicide on the seventh attempt after Matis' death.[51][53][61][62]

Bryan Michael Egnew (2011) — After 40-year-old Egnew came out as gay to his wife, she immediately left North Carolina with their children, his family shunned him, and local leaders excommunicated him within two weeks because he refused to denounce his sexual orientation. He died by suicide a few weeks later.[63][64]

Jack Denton Reese (2012) — Seventeen-year-old Reese was from a small town in Utah where over 90% of the residents were LDS.[65] He died by suicide in 2012 after experiencing severe physical and verbal bullying at school.[66][67]

Harry Fisher (2016) — Fisher was a 28-year-old BYU history student and had come out on Facebook about two months before his death on the 12th of February. He reported hearing anti-gay rhetoric from individuals around him and leaving church meetings to cry in his car.[68]

Lincoln Parkin (2016) — Parkin was a 22-year-old man who grew up in Pleasant View, Utah and received an award in 2012 for reestablishing the gay-straight alliance at Weber High School after having a gay friend die by suicide.[69] He attended Westminster College and had attempted suicide before having experienced significant depression for a decade but died by suicide on the 6th of April.[70][71]

Braxton Taylor (2016) — On September 23, 19-year-old Taylor, a student of Weber State University, died by suicide.[72] His story gained media attention when an LDS political candidate[73] criticized his suicide and sexual orientation as a sin of murder and homosexuality,[74][75] a statement which received national criticism.[76][77]

Stockton Powers (2016) — After a suicide attempt in 2012, 17-year-old Stockton died from suicide in 2016. He reported in 2015 that many church members had stopped talking to him after he came out and excluded him from events, with some mothers in his congregation stating they would not allow their sons to go to Scout camp if Stockton went.[78][79][80]

 

 

Edited by california boy
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5 minutes ago, california boy said:

 

 

Double post

Edited by california boy
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3 minutes ago, california boy said:

We don't really know how many suicides have been by distraught LGBT members of the Church, which is why I only said some have taken this route like this documented case.  

 

A guy in my freshman ward committed suicide a couple of years later because of his despair at being gay. In and out of the church, we should do better in teaching our children that being LGBTQ is not the end of the world. People who feel loved and accepted tend to be less likely to attempt suicide. 

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There isn't any denying that such occurs and that it occurs at higher rates than those who aren't gay and commit suicide "because" of the Church (that happens too). The anecdotes don't belie the social data and I agree with Michael Goodman and Justin Dyer that those who would sound the Mormornism-causes-gays-to-commit-suicide trumpet are causing harm and not helping the situation which dearly needs attention (and is being given attention by the Church. There are better, more honest and truthful, ways.

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3 minutes ago, Nofear said:

There isn't any denying that such occurs and that it occurs at higher rates than those who aren't gay and commit suicide "because" of the Church (that happens too). The anecdotes don't belie the social data and I agree with Michael Goodman and Justin Dyer that those who would sound the Mormornism-causes-gays-to-commit-suicide trumpet are causing harm and not helping the situation which dearly needs attention (and is being given attention by the Church. There are better, more honest and truthful, ways.

I don't think the church "causes" gays to commit suicide. It's the lack of love and support of families, and the guilt and shame people feel. Does the church contribute to those situations? Probably. Is it a primary "cause"? I doubt it. 

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I hate how the threat of suicide is used to emotionaly blackmail people.  For all the folks claiming that the LDS position on homosexuality causes suicide need to prove that suicide rates among gay LDS are higher than non-LDS.  Or perhaps even just compare religious adherents.

Unless and until someone can show that the LDS Church has a statistically significantly higher rate than other groups, GTFO with your blackmail.  Without this data there is absolutely zero basis to conclude the LDS Church influences -- let alone causes -- suicide.

Edited by Ipod Touch
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35 minutes ago, california boy said:

We don't really know how many suicides have been by distraught LGBT members of the Church, which is why I only said some have taken this route.  I am not using Utah suicide data that requires some speculation rather than actual cases like those listed below.

 

Are you really going to use a 50 yr old example to try and say anything about contemporary LDS practice?

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36 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

A guy in my freshman ward committed suicide a couple of years later because of his despair at being gay. In and out of the church, we should do better in teaching our children that being LGBTQ is not the end of the world. People who feel loved and accepted tend to be less likely to attempt suicide. 

A ward for freshman?

That explains everything 

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3 hours ago, Ipod Touch said:

I hate how the threat of suicide is used to emotionaly blackmail people.  For all the folks claiming that the LDS position on homosexuality causes suicide need to prove that suicide rates among gay LDS are higher than non-LDS.  Or perhaps even just compare religious adherents.

Unless and until someone can show that the LDS Church has a statistically significantly higher rate than other groups, GTFO with your blackmail.  Without this data there is absolutely zero basis to conclude the LDS Church influences -- let alone causes -- suicide.

When a member of the Church dismisses intersex population as being exceedingly rare as Risingtide did on this post

Quote

 

Risingtide

I agree some are born biologically indeterminate, but such cases are exceedingly rare, and shouldn't be used as a basis for broad sweeping social policy. The vast majority who claim transgender status are clearly male or female. 

 

I am simply pointing out that there are far more intersex people born than there are members of the Church.  So if you are a member of the Church, you have to also agree statistically that being a member of the Church is even more exceedingly rare.  Should we dismiss all members of the Church because they are simply exceedingly rare?  I feel like this is a legitimate question.

 This is my post in answer to Risingtide:

 

   On 8/14/2022 at 9:36 AM,  Risingtide said: 

I see a person born intersex in a different category than a person with gender dysphoria. Person may feel uncertain about their sexual identity,  and some become convinced they were born with the wrong body type and become ready to resort to surgery or other medical treatments that often do harm to the persons long term happiness and well being. 

There are many in this world that would say a similar thing about joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  People who have a different perspective see the Church as being quite harmful and will lead to long term unhappiness.  I believe that it can be very harmful for a person who is gay to be involved in the Church.  I have seen and experienced more unhappiness and long term issues from people who were LGBT and Mormon.  Some have even resorted to suicide as what they thought was their only resort.

   On 8/14/2022 at 9:36 AM,  Risingtide said: 

If Latter Day Saints, a religious minority, were forcing people to adopt their religious standards and beliefs I and most others would find it offensive. The fact that we don't  impose ourselves on others in that way doesn't make our Church unimportant or something to dismiss.

Just what kind of force are people using on you concerning gender dysphoria or intersex issues?  Showing respect for their choices?  Asking you to consider using the proper name in addressing them?  You know, like asking people to not call them Mormon and allow them to worship and live their lives as they see fit?  Sorry, but the Church is using the EXACT kinds of demands on people that don't share their same perspective.  

I don't get how a member of the Church can not relate to someone who has gender dysphoria.  The issues might be different, but the demands and the way people view both are pretty similar.  

And besides all of this, the data shows that there are more intersex people in this world than members of the Church.  The article was not talking about gender dysphoria.  From the article

  Quote

According to experts, around 1.7% of the population is born with intersex traits – comparable to the number of people born with red hair.

 

My point is, members of the Church should not be going around saying that intersex people are extremely rare and that when they have surgery by their choice, it causes harm to the persons long term happiness and well being. unless they are also willing to apply those two statements to being a member of the Church as well.

As for your post, you are distorting what I actually said.  I never said that the LDS Church has a statistically significantly higher rate than other groups.  What I said is that SOME LGBT members have resorted to suicide. I provided some documented cases that prove that point.  I didn't say these are the only cases.  Nor did I say they were the most recent.  What I am saying is that being a member of the Church has caused harm to the persons long term happiness and well being.

I hope this clarifies what I actually said.

Edited by california boy
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12 minutes ago, california boy said:

What I am saying is that being a member of the Church has caused harm to the persons long term happiness and well being.

The stats show less suicides in the Church, so the Church is most likely doing things that are preventative for suicides (low drug usage being one of them as drug abuse/alcohol abuse is, iirc, the number two risk for suicide—previous attempts being number one—in general as well as for LGBTQ+).  The ideal would be to identify both positive and negative factors, remove the negative where possible and adapt when not to minimize harm (don’t compromise on standards, but teach them in such a way that does not diminish a person) and to promote positive factors.

Edited by Calm
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11 minutes ago, Calm said:

The stats show less suicides in the Church, so the Church is most likely doing things that are preventative for suicides (low drug usage being one of them as drug abuse/alcohol abuse is, iirc, the number two risk for suicide—previous attempts being number one—in general as well as for LGBTQ+).  The ideal would be to identify both positive and negative factors, remove the negative where possible and adapt when not to minimize harm (don’t compromise on standards, but teach them in such a way that does not diminish a person) and to promote positive factors.

Less suicides than those who have gender correction surgery??  Could you link that study you refer to?

Edited by california boy
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