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A gender related question


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2 minutes ago, the narrator said:

And I am asking you to provide some sense to what it is you believe. If you don't care to, that's cool.

As I said, this isn’t the place to talk about that. Not because it’s a bad question, but because it is more of a level 2 or 3 conversation when I’m asking a level 4 question.

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1 hour ago, pogi said:

just goes to show just how ambiguous the roles of genotype, phenotype, and personal identification really are in gender ID.  They all can play a role in legitimate ways.

My thoughts are that hormones must trump all of that if there is only one documented case of a CAI female to male transition. 
 

1 hour ago, pogi said:

We have been told by some that gender is objectively determined by genes

They need to take a biology class.

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17 minutes ago, the narrator said:

So, then, I guess you agree with me that premortal "gender" lacks sense in that it is completely different from how "gender" is used in relation to biological bodies and lacks any identifiable definition beyond a binary polarity that would then make polar directions, left & right, up & down, light & dark, on & off, etc equivalent to gender.

Would you then say that computers run on gender?

No, I don't believe that premortal gender is completely different from how "gender" is used in relation to biological bodies.  We don't know much about premortality--what characteristics were bundled in each gender category, nor how our genders interacted with the premortal world around us.  Because we know so little about premortality, it is the height of hubris to confidently declare that the notion of unembodied gender is nonsensical.  

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1 hour ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

So very little has been revealed about our unembodied existence, one can only speculate about what gender meant in that context.  But it's really not that hard to imagine that spirits exist in some kind of binary fashion.  Think of them as the positive and negative forces from a magnet, or the positive and negative charges of subatomic particles. 

This report on a psychological study indicates that speakers of non-gendered languages tend to assign gender to even the most abstract concepts; odd numbers tend to be thought of as male and even numbers are thought of as female.  (https://www.vice.com/en/article/gvv8vy/the-gender-binaries-new-study-says-people-assign-gender-to-numbers)

Unembodied gender need to be anything more than a type of binary polarity. 

TL;DR….maleness is not the off position of femaleness nor is femaleness the off position of male (if something is present in all females, it won’t be present in males).  

Even if we discount all biological aspects that we share almost identically (like most of our organs, etc), what remains is more often similar though different rather than polar opposites.  Men are typically stronger than women, but that doesn’t mean women don’t have any strength.  Iow, I think magnets and electrons/protons are very poor analogies of male/female. 

Being male isn’t being everything not female or even being somethings not female (meaning the opposite of what females do). There are biological differences, but most are not extreme on/off polar differences. Males do not absorb milk through their breast nor do they lack the equipment, for example. They have breasts just like women and even have milk glands, they are just not developed. So they are not the polar opposite of the ability of women to produce milk or even the complete absence even in something seen as completely female.
 

And the whole Yin Yang male principle being the opposite of the female principle is more an abstract philosophical ideology where reality has even practitioners saying such exists in both men and women, imo.   Female is not really to hot as male is to cold.

Edited by Calm
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25 minutes ago, Calm said:

Priesthood is optional, isn’t it?  Would refusing it because one identified as a woman and had always been treated as a woman keep one out of the temple?  I would hope not. 

I certainly would hope not too.

It is only optional in the sense that we have free agency.  It is expected of all men to be worthy and receive the priesthood, and it is a requirement for a temple recommend. 

I would hope that the church would base their decision on the persons feelings/lived experience, rather than phenotype or genotype.  If the person with CIAS identifies as a male, they should be allowed to hold the priesthood as they are genetically male.  And if they identify as a female, I would hope that they could attend the temple as a female without the priesthood as they have female phenotype.    

This idea of universally objective binary genders where personal experience/feelings should never play a role, is not really as clean cut as some want to believe. 

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1 hour ago, pogi said:

If the person with CIAS identifies as a male, they should be allowed to hold the priesthood as they are genetically male.

I’m not sure you quite understand this Pogi. According to the paper you posted, there is really only one documented case of a person with that condition who truly identifies as male (enough to transition). The odds that that one person is LDS are pretty low. For all practical purposes, CAIS are all female-just as female as Jamie Lee Curtis.

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3 hours ago, Fether said:

My question is about how one figures out their real gender if there is confusion due to a mixup of chromosomes or genitalia

Your answer is: For some of the folks living with such mixups, it can be incredibly, soul-crushingly, suicide-at-rates-off-the-charts-edly hard to answer that question.  If anyone ever wanted an example of "the lost and the least" Christ talks about as needing love and grace the most, it's these folks. 

Another way to put it:  I wanna cast harsh judgment on some folks in this situation for making choices I don't understand?  Sounds like the Elder Oaks definition of an unrighteous judgment to me.  

Unless it's children, making permanent lifelong choices about surgical alteration and hormones and stuff.  Then I can judge a tad more righteously, having encountered a growing number of adults who regret their choices, and say the stuff is being overpushed by certain cultural forces.  And seeing some preliminary studies indicating such surgeries and medications seem to have an overall negative impact in the suicide rates of these folks.*   Thus, I'll opine that society needs additional safeguards in place to protect our children from such things.

 

https://www.heritage.org/gender/report/puberty-blockers-cross-sex-hormones-and-youth-suicide, and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21364939/

 

Edited by LoudmouthMormon
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1 hour ago, katherine the great said:

I’m not sure you quite understand this Pogi. According to the paper you posted, there is really only one documented case of a person with that condition who truly identifies as male (enough to transition). The odds that that one person is LDS are pretty low. For all practical purposes, CAIS are all female-just as female as Jamie Lee Curtis.

That was just the first paper I found in a quick google search.  It was published in 2010.  I highly doubt that is the only known surgical transition case today.  Surgery is not required for transition.   I find it hard to even call it a “transition” in this case where one identifies with their genotype.   They are whatever they identify as.  In the case of CAIS people, that should be obvious.  There are no hard universal and objective rules for gender.

Also, the first paper identified that the number of CAIS people who identify as male has been largely under estimated.  I don’t think one must go through an extreme and potentially dangerous surgical procedure before they can legitimately identify as male - unless you are suggesting that phenotype should be the determining characteristic of gender (which I don’t think you are, but seem to be).  

Why can’t a CAIS person identify as a male without surgery?   They have male genes and identify as male, shouldn’t that be enough?  

Your original comment that I was responding to was not about surgery at all, it was simply about gender identification.  I think I have demonstrated that the idea that none identify as male to be inaccurate with my first paper.  The second was just supplementary.

Edited by pogi
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15 minutes ago, pogi said:

Also, the first paper identified that the number of CAIS people who identify as male has been largely under estimated.

Women and girls with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS) invariably have a female typical core gender identity.”. This is from the abstract of that paper. Then it goes on to talk about one single exception to that. I totally agree with you that gender issues are very complex. But I think you picked the wrong biological condition to illustrate that fact. Statistically speaking, The odds of finding a person with that particular  condition who identifies as a male are almost zero. 

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8 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

 I totally agree with you that gender issues are very complex. But I think you picked the wrong biological condition to illustrate that fact.

Interesting. Do you believe a transgender man should receive the priesthood?

Edited by DT_
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19 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

Women and girls with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS) invariably have a female typical core gender identity.”. This is from the abstract of that paper. Then it goes on to talk about one single exception to that. I totally agree with you that gender issues are very complex. But I think you picked the wrong biological condition to illustrate that fact. Statistically speaking, The odds of finding a person with that particular  condition who identifies as a male are almost zero. 

Again, you are only considering the case report of surgical transition (from 2010).  My first link is the one I am talking about:

Quote

The perception of gender development of individuals with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS) as unambiguously female has recently been challenged in both qualitative data and case reports of male gender identity...

The findings support the assumption made by Meyer-Bahlburg ( 2010 ) that gender outcome in people with CAIS is more variable than generally stated. Parents and professionals should thus be open to courses of gender development other than typically female in individuals with CAIS.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26133743/

I think it is a really good condition to illustrate the fact that gender is not universal and objective, even where genotype is clearly XX or XY.  This is a really good condition to illustrate that how one identifies can and should be a determining factor, because we have nothing objective to go on. 

Edited by pogi
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4 hours ago, Calm said:

the whole Yin Yang male principle being the opposite of the female principle is more an abstract philosophical ideology where reality has even practitioners saying such exists in both men and women, imo.   Female is not really to hot as male is to cold.

Notice that inside each of the symbols is a dot of the other color, denoting that true power includes gentleness, and that true gentleness includes power (those words are incomplete conveyors of meaning). 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang#/media/File:Yin_and_Yang_symbol.svg

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Even if we discount all biological aspects that we share almost identically (like most of our organs, etc), what remains is more often similar though different rather than polar opposites. 

Leonardo da Vinci's "Salvator Mundi" ("Savior of the World", or alternatively "Salvation of the World") is imo a most interesting painting: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvator_Mundi_(Leonardo)#/media/File:Leonardo_da_Vinci,_Salvator_Mundi,_c.1500,_oil_on_walnut,_45.4_×_65.6_cm.jpg

Take a piece of paper and first cover up one side of the face, and then the other side.  

To my (untrained) eye, the "Savior of the World" is apparently a being which is simultaneously both male and female.  I doubt da Vinci did that by mistake or by accident.

 

Edited by manol
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5 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

So very little has been revealed about our unembodied existence, one can only speculate about what gender meant in that context.  But it's really not that hard to imagine that spirits exist in some kind of binary fashion.  Think of them as the positive and negative forces from a magnet, or the positive and negative charges of subatomic particles. 

This report on a psychological study indicates that speakers of non-gendered languages tend to assign gender to even the most abstract concepts; odd numbers tend to be thought of as male and even numbers are thought of as female.  (https://www.vice.com/en/article/gvv8vy/the-gender-binaries-new-study-says-people-assign-gender-to-numbers)

Unembodied gender need to be anything more than a type of binary polarity. 

Yes, all boats are female. I don't care what you name it. She is a good boat. Cars can be male or female. 

Edited by rodheadlee
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1 hour ago, pogi said:

Again, you are only considering the case report of surgical transition (from 2010).  My first link is the one I am talking about:

I think it is a really good condition to illustrate the fact that gender is not universal and objective, even where genotype is clearly XX or XY.  This is a really good condition to illustrate that how one identifies can and should be a determining factor, because we have nothing objective to go on. 

I think we’re talking past each other. We obviously are reading the data very differently. 

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On 8/8/2022 at 7:42 AM, The Nehor said:

If God did not take steps to make sure everyone’s sexuality was in conformity with His plan I see little reason to believe He was strict on avoiding all gender mistakes.

I find it fascinating that, according to the pride flag charts you recently posted, God appears to be very busy at this particular historical moment creating people with a plethora of novel sexualities that don't conform with His plan: 'Leather, Latex, BDSM', 'Pony', 'Schrodigender', etc. It will be interesting to see what new and exciting sexualities He will dream up and then place inside His mortal offspring in the next few years -- almost certainly ones that we haven't even dared imagine yet!

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7 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I find it fascinating that, according to the pride flag charts you recently posted, God appears to be very busy at this particular historical moment creating people with a plethora of novel sexualities that don't conform with His plan: 'Leather, Latex, BDSM', 'Pony', 'Schrodigender', etc. It will be interesting to see what new and exciting sexualities He will dream up and then place inside His mortal offspring in the next few years -- almost certainly ones that we haven't even dared imagine yet!

I'm not sure how one determines that a "sexuality" doesn't conform with God's plan. Does my former neighbor, who is active LDS and engages in consensual BDSM with his wife, not conform to God's plan? 

Edited by jkwilliams
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On 8/7/2022 at 5:25 PM, Fether said:

“Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.”

Are chromosomes a perfect way of figuring out what a person’s true and intended physical gender is?

How would one figure out the chromosomes in a being without them like a pre-mortal unembodied spirit or are you assuming that spirits would have them?

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14 hours ago, Calm said:

... Males do not absorb milk through their breast nor do they lack the equipment, for example. They have breasts just like women and even have milk glands, they are just not developed. ...

Why does that remind me of this?

Does that make me a bad person?  Probably! ;)  (I'll just add it to the ever-expanding list.)

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1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

How would one figure out the chromosomes in a being without them like a pre-mortal unembodied spirit or are you assuming that spirits would have them?

I don’t know. The principle question is if there is a perfect way to know someone’s gender if there is confusion

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11 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I find it fascinating that, according to the pride flag charts you recently posted, God appears to be very busy at this particular historical moment creating people with a plethora of novel sexualities that don't conform with His plan: 'Leather, Latex, BDSM', 'Pony', 'Schrodigender', etc. It will be interesting to see what new and exciting sexualities He will dream up and then place inside His mortal offspring in the next few years -- almost certainly ones that we haven't even dared imagine yet!

Do you really not understand the difference between a fetish and gender?

 The difference between the leather community and the LDS community is members of the church seem to have a thing for white shirts and ties rather than leather

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19 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

No, I don't believe that premortal gender is completely different from how "gender" is used in relation to biological bodies. 

Beyond reducing gender to binary coding bits of a "0" and a "1," can you please provide me with just one sense in which premortal gender is not completely different from how gender is used in relation to biological bodies. Surely if it is not senseless, you can give me just one sense in which they are similar.

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19 hours ago, Fether said:

As I said, this isn’t the place to talk about that. Not because it’s a bad question, but because it is more of a level 2 or 3 conversation when I’m asking a level 4 question.

Perhaps you ought to graduate from 2nd and 3rd grade before jumping into 4th grade? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Can your OP question be even answered without understanding in what sense premortal unembodied, nonbiological spirits are gendered?

Edited by the narrator
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8 minutes ago, the narrator said:

Beyond reducing gender to binary coding bits of a "0" and a "1," can you please provide me with just one sense in which premortal gender is not completely different from how gender is used in relation to biological bodies. Surely if it is not senseless, you can give me just one sense in which they are similar.

I think you are ascribing to me a position I don't actually hold.  My position is that I have no position on premortal gender because we know so very very little about spiritual existence.  My position is that it only takes the least bit of imagination and ingenuity to come up with a speculative framework on how premortal gender could maybe possibly potentially operate.  My position is that it is the height of hubris to declare something "nonsensical" when we have NO information (revealed or observed) about the operational aspects of an unembodied, spiritual world.

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