New Church Policy?

[Duncan]

2 hours ago, Durangout said:

No worries.

Just for the record:

In my first example, the murder is a matter of public court record.  In my second example the young woman herself posted the details of her being in a relationship w another female on social media, while being enrolled at BYU.

Pretty sure I was not being stupid or rash in either case.

and isn't it wonderful your judgement of them is worthless, I think it's wonderful

[Scott Lloyd]

On 4/26/2022 at 11:09 AM, Amulek said:

Personally, I can say with honesty that I have yet to read the talk in its entirety. It was given before I was even born, and unless I'm mistaken I don't believe it's widely recognized as being one of those epic talks that everyone remembers (e.g., HBB's currant bush).

It was deliberately intended not to be prominent. The title was “To Young Men Only.” It was given in the priesthood session which, in those days, made it less accessible to the general Church population than it might have been in later years. 
 

In fact, the subject matter and content were deemed so sensitive that the talk was not published that year in the November issue of the Ensign magazine with the other talks from the conference. Instead, the talk was printed in pamphlet form for distribution by local priesthood leaders as needed. Under the circumstances, It was not surprising to me over the years that some of my contemporaries were unacquainted with it. 
 

The talk became more widely known in later years after disaffected and angry Church members, former members and others publicized it as an object of ridicule, profane mockery and general disparagement. 
 

So it’s more than understandable why the talk has not taken its place among such classics as “The Currant Bush” and “To Them of the Last Wagon.”

Edited April 27, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[california boy]

15 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Well, I haven't found a spouse, so there's that ...

But yeah, I wasn't aware anyone on this thread was discussing mere flirting. I certainly haven't been ... unless you consider sexual groping to be flirting? (I know some people do ...)

When I was studying in America, I went to the on-campus pool/gym early one morning to swim laps and then get ready for the day. I was alone in the showers when another student stood near me and began masturbating. I quickly finished my shower and headed to the bathroom to shave. Within minutes, the same man was standing about two metres behind me, still masturbating. I moved to a different bathroom. He followed.

Flirting, in your opinion? It didn't feel that way to me. It was early enough that no one else was in the area, and this student was considerably larger than I am. (I'm a bit heavier now, but I would have weighed about 54kg then.) I was terrified of what might happen next ... and so full of adrenaline that I was ready to either flee or fight back if necessary.

Mercifully, some more men entered the change room at this time, and my 'admirer' made himself scarce. There's a reason why we have criminalised persistent, unwanted sexual advances.

What I don't understand about your story is why didn't you go immediately to the people running the gym and report the guy when it first happened?  We do have laws against this kind of behavior.

Quote

And at least one participant on this thread has insisted that the use of physical force is never justified for anything other than rape.

Do you think you should have decked him instead?  Cause I don't understand why you brought me into this discussion.

You are kinda proving my point.  Unless you were directly in danger of physical violence you have options to diffuse the situation and get the guy arrested, something you chose not to do. If you would have even said, hey, knock that off immediately or I am gong to report you to the authorities, it probably would have stopped the behavior.  That is kinda on you and not some excuse to deck the guy. 

 

Edited April 27, 2022 by california boy

[Raingirl]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

What I don't understand about your story is why didn't you go immediately to the people running the gym and report the guy when it first happened?  We do have laws against this kind of behavior.

Do you think you should have decked him instead?  Cause I don't understand why you brought me into this discussion.

You are kinda proving my point.  Unless you were directly in danger of physical violence you have options to diffuse the situation and get the guy arrested, something you chose not to do. If you would have even said, hey, knock that off immediately or I am gong to report you to the authorities, it probably would have stopped the behavior.  That is kinda on you and not some excuse to deck the guy. 

 

You’re very much into victim-blaming, except when you perceive yourself to be the victim. 
 

A 10 year old girl was raped and murdered in Wisconsin this week. The perpetrator admitted these were his intentions “from the get-go”. Do you blame her as well? Because, as you say, she could have “probably stopped the behavior”. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Raingirl said:

You’re very much into victim-blaming, except when you perceive yourself to be the victim. 
 

A 10 year old girl was raped and murdered in Wisconsin this week. The perpetrator admitted these were his intentions “from the get-go”. Do you blame her as well? Because, as you say, she could have “probably stopped the behavior”. 

What?

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Raingirl said:

You’re very much into victim-blaming, except when you perceive yourself to be the victim. 
 

A 10 year old girl was raped and murdered in Wisconsin this week. The perpetrator admitted these were his intentions “from the get-go”. Do you blame her as well? Because, as you say, she could have “probably stopped the behavior”. 

That is insulting and absolutely false.  Reporting someone that is sexually assaulting you is NOT blaming the victim.  I can not even see how you got the idea I was blaming the victim.  So CFR exactly where I blame the victim for ANYTHING??????????

This is such a insulting accusation.  You should be ashamed to lobby such a false allegation.

Edited April 27, 2022 by california boy

[Durangout]

16 hours ago, Duncan said:

and isn't it wonderful your judgement of them is worthless, I think it's wonderful

Please allow me to help you.  Your post should read this way:  “Isn’t it wonderful that your judgment of them is worthless?  I think it’s wonderful.”

Never start a sentence with a conjunction. Always capitalize the first letter of the first word of a sentence.  Finally, proper punctuation is also much appreciated.

 

[ttribe]

4 minutes ago, Durangout said:

Please allow me to help you.  Your post should read this way:  “Isn’t it wonderful that your judgment of them is worthless?  I think it’s wonderful.”

Never start a sentence with a conjunction. Always capitalize the first letter of the first word of a sentence.  Finally, proper punctuation is also much appreciated.

 

A sure sign you've lost the argument. 

[The Nehor]

37 minutes ago, Durangout said:

Please allow me to help you.  Your post should read this way:  “Isn’t it wonderful that your judgment of them is worthless?  I think it’s wonderful.”

Never start a sentence with a conjunction. Always capitalize the first letter of the first word of a sentence.  Finally, proper punctuation is also much appreciated.

 

Tough talk coming from someone who is still putting two spaces after a sentence as if they were using a typewriter. There is one sentence with one space though so not sure what is going on. PICK A LANE!

[Durangout]

28 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Tough talk coming from someone who is still putting two spaces after a sentence as if they were using a typewriter. There is one sentence with one space though so not sure what is going on. PICK A LANE!

Hahaha.  Good one.

[Hamba Tuhan]

9 hours ago, california boy said:

What I don't understand about your story is why didn't you go immediately to the people running the gym and report the guy when it first happened?

The 'people running the gym' were the university. It was about 6am, and I had gained entry by swiping my student card. I had been in a computer lab literally all night working on an assignment. (The lab, by the way, was also unattended, and I likewise had access to it by means of my student card.) As I made perfectly clear when I related my experience, I was completely alone at the time.

Quote

Do you think you should have decked him instead?

No, which is why I didn't (a fact you seem to overlook?). But I was prepared to either flee or fight (in that order) if necessary.

Quote

If you would have even said, hey, knock that off immediately or I am gong to report you to the authorities, it probably would have stopped the behavior.

Of course. Because a man who followed me from the showers to one bathroom and then to a completely different bathroom just needed a bit of verbal clarity that his behaviour wasn't welcome ...  You do realise, right, that threatening to report a person who is only two metres away can increase the likelihood of attack?

Quote

That is kinda on you and not some excuse to deck the guy. 

'Any time someone defaults to questioning what a victim could have done differently to prevent a crime, he or she is participating, to some degree, in the culture of victim blaming'.

'Another issue that contributes to our tendency to blame the victim is known as the hindsight bias. When we look at an event that happened in the past, we have a tendency to believe that we should have been able to see the signs and predict the outcome. This hindsight makes it seem like the victims of a crime, accident, or another form of misfortune should have been able to predict and prevent whatever problem might have befallen them'.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, Durangout said:

Please allow me to help you.  Your post should read this way:  “Isn’t it wonderful that your judgment of them is worthless?  I think it’s wonderful.”

Never start a sentence with a conjunction. Always capitalize the first letter of the first word of a sentence.  Finally, proper punctuation is also much appreciated.

 

I agree with you about the punctuation. But starting a sentence with a conjunction (as I’ve done here) has been acceptable for quite a while now. Most major professional style guides allow it. 
 

https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/can-i-start-a-sentence-with-a-conjunction?amp

Edited April 28, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Tough talk coming from someone who is still putting two spaces after a sentence as if they were using a typewriter. There is one sentence with one space though so not sure what is going on. PICK A LANE!

… As if he were using a typewriter. 
 

Durangout is one person. And were in this instance is a contrary-to-fact subjunctive, hence its use with a singular subject.  

Edited April 28, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[The Nehor]

21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

… As if he were using a typewriter. 
 

Durangout is one person. And were in this instance is a contrary-to-fact subjunctive, hence its use with a singular subject.  

I deliberately continue my crusade to make "they" usable as a singular pronoun especially when I am not certain of someone's gender.

[Jaydes]

"I expressed later in an email that we are to avoid the very appearance of evil and that I would not want my young teen son to go to a church dance and see females slow dancing with females and males slow dancing with other males."

 

Well, Brigham Young endorsed and did a lot of this, himself. 

[Jaydes]

10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

… As if he were using a typewriter. 
 

Durangout is one person. And were in this instance is a contrary-to-fact subjunctive, hence its use with a singular subject.  

Nehor was not certain of Durangout's gender. "They" is a grammatically valid gender neutral singular pronoun since centuries ago. 

[Scott Lloyd]

26 minutes ago, Jaydes said:

Nehor was not certain of Durangout's gender. "They" is a grammatically valid gender neutral singular pronoun since centuries ago. 

Nehor has declared his intention to do this even when he IS certain of the gender. That’s an irrational stance. 

[ttribe]

Hmmm, I wonder where B. Morris Young/Madam Patrini would fit into this discussion....

[jkwilliams]

55 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Nehor has declared his intention to do this even when he IS certain of the gender. That’s an irrational stance. 

Irrational in what sense? I suppose using he/him/she/her is appropriate when the context demands specifying gender. Otherwise they/them has been used as a singular pronoun for centuries. 

[Scott Lloyd]

45 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Irrational in what sense? I suppose using he/him/she/her is appropriate when the context demands specifying gender. Otherwise they/them has been used as a singular pronoun for centuries. 

Using a plural pronoun for a singular subject is potentially awkward if not confusing. Even if one accepts it for instances when the gender is indeterminate, there’s no point to it when the gender is known and obvious; ergo, irrational. 
 

And I dare say a good many things were done centuries ago that we’ve long since jettisoned — with good reason. 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

Using a plural pronoun for a singular subject is potentially awkward if not confusing. Even if one accepts it for instances when the gender is indeterminate, there’s no point to it when the gender is known and obvious; ergo, irrational. 
 

And I dare say a good many things were done centuries ago that we’ve long since jettisoned — with good reason. 

Except things like they/them have stuck around because they still work just fine. 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Jaydes said:

"I expressed later in an email that we are to avoid the very appearance of evil and that I would not want my young teen son to go to a church dance and see females slow dancing with females and males slow dancing with other males."

 

Well, Brigham Young endorsed and did a lot of this, himself. 

Are you referring to when the vanguard company of pioneers crossed the plains? There weren’t any women on that trek, and sexual orientation was not an issue. This is a red herring. 
 

Added later: Correcting myself here. There were three women on that trek, but my point still stands. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Except things like they/them have stuck around because they still work just fine. 

So you say. I’m not convinced. 
 

The point is that a practice having  originated centuries ago is not in itself a sufficient reason to perpetuate it. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[ksfisher]

57 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Irrational in what sense? I suppose using he/him/she/her is appropriate when the context demands specifying gender. Otherwise they/them has been used as a singular pronoun for centuries. 

They new way that they and them are being used to refer to one individual I find confusing.

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

They new way that they and them are being used to refer to one individual I find confusing.

That’s just it. It’s not new.