New Church Policy?

[Durangout]

I saw the following on another LDS related blog site.  Let me say at the outset that I realize that it is anonymous and I usually dismiss out of hand anything 2-3rd hand / anonymous.  In this case, however, I received addition information via a PM that leads me to believe that the situation is real and as described.

I’m horrified and saddened that this has happened and even more so if this is the direction that The Church is going.  To normalize homosexual behaviors is simply evil (contrary to God’s Plan).  Are we, as a church, so weak that we can’t stand up to the world any longer?  Are we no longer a peculiar people?  It does seem that a latter day apostasy of sorts is underway.

 

https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=66191

“Our stake president met with other stake presidents and they decided together that same-sex-attracted youth can slow dance with others of the same gender. They rationalized that "well, they're not breaking the law of chastity" and "at least they're at the church instead of somewhere else" (!!!).

I was speechless and dumbfounded ... and remain dumbfounded although I'm just starting to find my tongue.

I expressed later in an email that we are to avoid the very appearance of evil and that I would not want my young teen son to go to a church dance and see females slow dancing with females and males slow dancing with other males. I mentioned that kissing and hugging isn't breaking the law of chastity ... are the same gender couples allowed to do that as well?

The stake president (whom I love and respect very much and who is a lawyer by trade) replied that it's a slippery legal slope and banning them from slow-dancing could lead to legal trouble.

I countered: "The slippery slope leading youth to full-blown homosexual relations is more damaging than the slippery slope leading to legal problems, in my opinion. If we can't ban wickedness as a church with God on our side because we're afraid of society and its lawyers, then we've already lost the battle and the war."

I feel like I'm living in bizarro-world”

Thoughts?

[rongo]

If this is true, it's not a churchwide policy --- it would be a local policy. 

[mfbukowski]

8 minutes ago, rongo said:

If this is true, it's not a churchwide policy --- it would be a local policy. 

Exactly

Stake presidents do not make church policy, and is not a trend.

Elder Oaks conference talk , I think, defines the trend, and is far more conservative 

[CA Steve]

Well, either we're closing our eyes to a situation we do not wish to acknowledge or we are not aware of the caliber of disaster indicated.

I say we have trouble, yes trouble, that starts with T and rhymes with D which stands for dancing!

Trouble! Trouble! Trouble!.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Durangout said:

I expressed later in an email that we are to avoid the very appearance of evil and that I would not want my young teen son to go to a church dance and see females slow dancing with females and males slow dancing with other males. I mentioned that kissing and hugging isn't breaking the law of chastity ... are the same gender couples allowed to do that as well?

This seems more culturally tied just as handholding and kissing is not romantic behaviour in many cultures.  For a global church, officially barring same sex slow dancing is foolish, imo, and may be sexualizing something that is not automatically sexual in that culture.  And I see that as a much bigger issue.

Do you assume any slow dancing is done between romantic partners?  You don’t see it as possible that friends could slow dance together? 
 

I do see it as likely in American culture, slow dancing between guys isn’t as likely to happen with just friends at this time, but I can see girls doing it if allowed because no guy has asked them as well as wanting to talk to a friend.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Calm

[Jane_Doe]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

This seems more culturally tied just as handholding and kissing is not romantic behaviour in many cultures.  For a global church, officially barring same sex slow dancing is foolish, imo, and may be specializing something that is not automatically sexual in that culture.  And I see that as a much bigger issue.

Do you assume any slow dancing is done between romantic partners?  You don’t see it as possible that friends could slow dance together? 
 

I do see it as likely in American culture, slow dancing between guys isn’t as likely to happen with just friends at this time, but I can see girls doing it if allowed because no guy has asked them as well as wanting to talk to a friend.

When I was a youth (early 2000's) us girls would slow dance with gal friends non-romantically all the time.  It was a way to just dance and have fun without any "pairing off" pressure.  

[HappyJackWagon]

25 minutes ago, Durangout said:

I saw the following on another LDS related blog site.  Let me say at the outset that I realize that it is anonymous and I usually dismiss out of hand anything 2-3rd hand / anonymous.  In this case, however, I received addition information via a PM that leads me to believe that the situation is real and as described.

I’m horrified and saddened that this has happened and even more so if this is the direction that The Church is going.  To normalize homosexual behaviors is simply evil (contrary to God’s Plan).  Are we, as a church, so weak that we can’t stand up to the world any longer?  Are we no longer a peculiar people?  It does seem that a latter day apostasy of sorts is underway.

 

https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=66191

“Our stake president met with other stake presidents and they decided together that same-sex-attracted youth can slow dance with others of the same gender. They rationalized that "well, they're not breaking the law of chastity" and "at least they're at the church instead of somewhere else" (!!!).

I was speechless and dumbfounded ... and remain dumbfounded although I'm just starting to find my tongue.

I expressed later in an email that we are to avoid the very appearance of evil and that I would not want my young teen son to go to a church dance and see females slow dancing with females and males slow dancing with other males. I mentioned that kissing and hugging isn't breaking the law of chastity ... are the same gender couples allowed to do that as well?

The stake president (whom I love and respect very much and who is a lawyer by trade) replied that it's a slippery legal slope and banning them from slow-dancing could lead to legal trouble.

I countered: "The slippery slope leading youth to full-blown homosexual relations is more damaging than the slippery slope leading to legal problems, in my opinion. If we can't ban wickedness as a church with God on our side because we're afraid of society and its lawyers, then we've already lost the battle and the war."

I feel like I'm living in bizarro-world”

Thoughts?

This entire post makes me sad. I am horrified that you are horrified.

But don't worry. I imagine the Stake Presidents will have their wrists slapped and things will go back to the regular Anti-gay way we're all accustomed to. I'm sure those youth will be shunned in due time.

Please tell me what the sin is for 2 same gender individuals slow dancing? If it appears evil for them, does slow dancing not also appear evil for hetero dancers? Maybe Footloose was on to something and we should just ban it outright. That would solve so many problems.

But I would like to thank you for illustrating the double standard that exists in the church. It's helpful to remember.

[Duncan]

I've seen this for years, nobody cares! Girls dance with Girls, who gives a whip. I've never seen inappropriate type dancing though. I'll have you know that homosexual youth aren't the only ones who can inappropriately dance. In dancing too people, married, not married touch each other, it's not a sexual thing to chicken dance with someone.  People have too much time on their hands to worry who is dancing with who for a 2 minute song. What do they think will happen? someone will be more gay or miraculously turn gay? 

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

When I was a youth (early 2000's) us girls would slow dance with gal friends non-romantically all the time.  It was a way to just dance and have fun without any "pairing off" pressure.  

Same here in the 70’s.

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

When I was a youth (early 2000's) us girls would slow dance with gal friends non-romantically all the time.  It was a way to just dance and have fun without any "pairing off" pressure.  

Exactly.  And the only thing wrong with guys adopting this as well is if the standard “only guys can ask” is still in place, imo.  Guys feeling some pressure to ask a girl to dance so the guy can join in the fun is not necessarily a bad thing, but my preference would be for everyone to be comfortable to ask anyone to dance because dancing is fun and it doesn’t need to always be complicated by sexual implications.
 

I can see a possible dance where the guys just dance with guys and girls with girls because no one feels comfortable asking someone they don’t know that well to dance…though in the vast majority of cases my guess is there are enough girls and guys who are friends with each other who would ask each other to dance just because dancing is fun that you would get a decent mix in most dances.  
 

Otoh, if we turn dancing into something you only do with potential romantic partners and asking someone to dance is a declaration of sexual interest, that is going to turn dances into speed dating services at best (if they dance with multiple partners) and at worst you will get committed couples dancing while singles get to all be wallflowers.  What fun!

Edited April 19, 2022 by Calm

[rongo]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

I can see a possible dance where the guys just dance with guys and girls with girls because no one feels comfortable asking someone they don’t know that well to dance…though in the vast majority of cases my guess is there are enough girls and guys who are friends with each other who would ask each other to dance just because dancing is fun that you would get a decent mix in most dances.  

It's different with girls. Most boys starting out with the stake dance scene --- especially deacons or teachers --- are wallflowers, or goof off, eat refreshments, and try to ditch the dance and hide in the building or go outside. Leaders spend an inordinate amount of time and effort trying to get them to ask girls to dance. As they get older, many of the priests and some teachers do ask girls to dance. Slow dances are easier, because you can laways do the "deacon shuffle" if you have no moves (or are self-conscious).

Boys dancing with boys is very unusual (like, unheard of). It would be a cultural "in your face" in a way that girls dancing with girls isn't. 

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, rongo said:

Boys dancing with boys is very unusual (like, unheard of). It would be a cultural "in your face" in a way that girls dancing with girls isn't. 

So do you think it is appropriate to ban boys and girls from dancing with the same sex based on the unlikelihood of boys dancing with other boys as friends or do you think allowing it is acceptable?

[HappyJackWagon]

3 minutes ago, rongo said:

It's different with girls. Most boys starting out with the stake dance scene --- especially deacons or teachers --- are wallflowers, or goof off, eat refreshments, and try to ditch the dance and hide in the building or go outside. Leaders spend an inordinate amount of time and effort trying to get them to ask girls to dance. As they get older, many of the priests and some teachers do ask girls to dance. Slow dances are easier, because you can laways do the "deacon shuffle" if you have no moves (or are self-conscious).

Boys dancing with boys is very unusual (like, unheard of). It would be a cultural "in your face" in a way that girls dancing with girls isn't. 

But we should remember that all people are welcome at church...even members of the LGBTQ community...as long as they don't act like they're part of the LGBTQ community  

I snark...but it's true. And it drives me nuts when people pretend that a gay couple is welcome at church, because they're not.

IMO the culture of worthiness checking is very bad for the church (and church's in general). 

[rongo]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

So do you think it is appropriate to ban boys and girls from dancing with the same sex based on the unlikelihood of boys dancing with other boys as friends or do you think allowing it is acceptable?

Yes. I wouldn't allow it --- under the same rationale that the Church finally stepped in at BYU with Elder Paul Johnson's explanation for the gay dating behavior ban at BYU.

3 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

But we should remember that all people are welcome at church...even members of the LGBTQ community...as long as they don't act like they're part of the LGBTQ community  

I snark...but it's true. And it drives me nuts when people pretend that a gay couple is welcome at church, because they're not.

IMO the culture of worthiness checking is very bad for the church (and church's in general). 

I agree with you that this is something we just need to own (people are welcome as long as they don't engage in gay behavior). 

[Robert F. Smith]

24 minutes ago, Durangout said:

I saw the following on another LDS related blog site.  Let me say at the outset that I realize that it is anonymous and I usually dismiss out of hand anything 2-3rd hand / anonymous.  In this case, however, I received addition information via a PM that leads me to believe that the situation is real and as described.

I’m horrified and saddened that this has happened and even more so if this is the direction that The Church is going.  To normalize homosexual behaviors is simply evil (contrary to God’s Plan).  Are we, as a church, so weak that we can’t stand up to the world any longer?  Are we no longer a peculiar people?  It does seem that a latter day apostasy of sorts is underway..........................

“Our stake president met with other stake presidents and they decided together that same-sex-attracted youth can slow dance with others of the same gender. They rationalized that "well, they're not breaking the law of chastity" and "at least they're at the church instead of somewhere else" (!!!).

I was speechless and dumbfounded ... and remain dumbfounded although I'm just starting to find my tongue.

I expressed later in an email that we are to avoid the very appearance of evil and that I would not want my young teen son to go to a church dance and see females slow dancing with females and males slow dancing with other males. I mentioned that kissing and hugging isn't breaking the law of chastity ... are the same gender couples allowed to do that as well?

The stake president (whom I love and respect very much and who is a lawyer by trade) replied that it's a slippery legal slope and banning them from slow-dancing could lead to legal trouble.

I countered: "The slippery slope leading youth to full-blown homosexual relations is more damaging than the slippery slope leading to legal problems, in my opinion. If we can't ban wickedness as a church with God on our side because we're afraid of society and its lawyers, then we've already lost the battle and the war."

I feel like I'm living in bizarro-world”................

It is very much a bizarro world, but not quite the way you imagine.  Your SP isn't much of a lawyer to think that banning same sex slow dancing could lead to legal problems. I can well recall that it was common at all dances many years ago for girls and women to dance together.  Men being reticent, and the women not seeing anything suggestive about dancing together publicly.  Do we really need to go to unreasonable extremes in order to avoid the very appearance of evil?  Are we really in the throes of a latter-day apostasy?

The slippery slope to heterosexual sex outside of wedlock can likewise be blamed on slow dancing together.  And hugging and kissing.  We need to set reasonable boundaries, but what would those boundaries be?  Should we become control freaks?

[Duncan]

10 minutes ago, rongo said:

Yes. I wouldn't allow it --- under the same rationale that the Church finally stepped in at BYU with Elder Paul Johnson's explanation for the gay dating behavior ban at BYU.

I agree with you that this is something we just need to own (people are welcome as long as they don't engage in gay behavior). 

in my area "gay behaviour" means you want to have sex with someone of your own sex and or gender, dancing isn't sex at least here. Dance with whoever you want to 

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, rongo said:

Yes. I wouldn't allow it --- under the same rationale that the Church finally stepped in at BYU with Elder Paul Johnson's explanation for the gay dating behavior ban at BYU.

That would be like banning girls from hanging out together as well as banning gay dating because girls ‘friend dance’.  Dancing is not equivalent to dating.  If guys in American culture don’t want to friend dance, so be it, but banning friend dancing completely is inherently sexualizing dancing imo and that is not imo a good move.  No more slow dancing between father and daughter at weddings because it has the sexual connotation.  No more dancing between brother and sister to become comfortable with dancing.  No more dancing of male/female friends because dancing sends the signal you are interested sexually/romantically in someone.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Calm

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

If this is true, it's not a churchwide policy --- it would be a local policy. 

Until it's Church wide.  Today's stake president is tomorrow's apostle.  It's the thought process that's changing.

[Navidad]

I think I have mentioned on this forum before that Mennonites are completely opposed to premarital sex because it leads to dancing!

[rongo]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

That would be like banning girls from hanging out together as well as banning gay dating because girls ‘friend dance’.  Dancing is not equivalent to dating.  If guys in American culture don’t want to friend dance, so be it, but banning friend dancing completely is inherently sexualizing dancing imo and that is not imo a good move.  No more slow dancing between father and daughter at weddings because it has the sexual connotation.  No more dancing between brother and sister to become comfortable with dancing.  No more dancing of male/female friends because dancing sends the signal you are interested sexually/romantically in someone.

It's like inherently sexualizing hand-holding, kissing, and hugging at BYU. 

I wouldn't do a thing about the platonic, friend dancing of girls since time immemorial. But, I wouldn't allow boys to dance together at stake dances, and I'm confident that the Church hierarchy largely agrees with me. For now. 

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, Duncan said:

in my area "gay behaviour" means you want to have sex with someone of your own sex and or gender, dancing isn't sex at least here. Dance with whoever you want to 

And ban inappropriate behaviour like hands on butts or whatever just as is done with opposite sex dancing.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Calm

[MrShorty]

I doubt it has anything to do with whatever policy is being implemented here, but I recently listened to Episode 511 of Richard Ostler's Listen Learn Love podcast with a David Bingham. By the end of the podcast, Br. Bingham mentioned that he was in a romantic, non-sexual relationship with another man, and was retaining his temple recommend, callings, etc. It seems to me that the BYU honor code stuff with brother Johnson is not getting outside of BYU. IMO, the Church really needs to clarify its stance on homoromantic, non-sexual relationships, because, as evidenced by this thread, people in the Church are either missing the point or getting the point.

But. as someone else said, should the Church be policing behavior to this level of detail??

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The slippery slope to heterosexual sex outside of wedlock can likewise be blamed on slow dancing together.

Given the percentage of same sex romantic partners vs opposite sex romantic partners in the Church, my guess is even if same sex slow dancing is completely allowed, there will be tons more opposite sex partners sliding down the slope at any given moment than same sex.  Ban slow dancing altogether if the issue is preventing church dances leading to law of chastity violations.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

What do they think will happen? someone will be more gay or miraculously turn gay? 

Exactly what is happening - same sex pairing becomes more and more acceptable.

I agree that dancing is pretty harmless.  I don't agree that displaying acceptance of same sex couples is harmless.

14 minutes ago, Duncan said:

in my area "gay behaviour" means you want to have sex with someone of your own sex and or gender, dancing isn't sex at least here.

Dancing isn't sex.  Romantic attraction is often a big part of youth dances.

We really need to stop pretending that homosexual sex isn't serious sin.  And anything that encourages acceptance is wrong too.

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Given the percentage of same sex romantic partners vs opposite sex romantic partners in the Church, my guess is even if same sex slow dancing is completely allowed, there will be tons more opposite sex partners sliding down the slope at any given moment than same sex.  Ban slow dancing altogether if the issue is preventing church dances leading to law of chastity violations.