Brad Wilcox fireside to Alpine youth on Feb 6.

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

Why would he ever give a talk that didn't echo the thoughts of the general authorities he has been exposed to. 

The part that I listen to so far did not sound like anything coming from an apostle if what and how they talk at the pulpit is an indicator. It sounded like it was rehashed seminary lectures from the 70s and 80s.  
 

If General Authorities are sitting around having these kinds of talks, I find it remarkable we aren’t hearing tons more speakers saying these same things. That we don’t would seem to point to the source being Brother Wilcox, who is a General Officer and therefore someone who has been called to be a leader in the church, but not someone who determines doctrine. 

[sunstoned]

21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m less than impressed that one with a high academic ranking seems so clueless about the distinction between a General Authority and a general officer. Are you this careless when you prepare your articles and lectures? 

I know that some people would rather die that have to face the fact that a GA said something hurtful, racist and demining. And somehow this all but imaginary line between GA and GO makes some kind of difference as to who is called of God and inspired or not.  The problem with that thinking is that one does not have to look very hard to find similar (or worse) statements from past GA leaders.  BY, Mark Peterson, Harold Lee, come to mind.

[sunstoned]

11 minutes ago, Moneymaking said:

I don’t buy the apology. He is just sorry he was caught. He has given this talk before:

 

I did not know this.  This thread has been an eye opener.

[kimpearson]

19 minutes ago, Moneymaking said:

I don’t buy the apology. He is just sorry he was caught. He has given this talk before:

Thank you for confirming my belief.  Someone has sent Brad Wilcox out to give this message knowing what he was saying.  I have no idea who but it is someone above Brad.  This is sickening.

[Bernard Gui]

49 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

I think we need to expect more from our leaders, but sadly, I think we will have to wait for a new generation of leaders before things change. 

Do you have someone in mind? What would they do differently?

[2BizE]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

 

Interesting list.  The only "president" listed is President Nelson. All of the other presidents are listed as "_______ presidency".  The pattern holds true with the presiding bishop as well. 

 

And..the Primary Presidency isn’t quite as important because they are not listed under the “List” view of General Authorities and General Officers, but they are found under the “Gallery” view.

[Nemesis]

27 minutes ago, Moneymaking said:

I don’t buy the apology. He is just sorry he was caught. He has given this talk before:

 

Say what you want about my moderating.  But I would have stopped him at hello or Brother and Sister’s.  I could have saved him from himself, like I do with a lot of you all.  (Flex) 

-Nemesis

[Nemesis]

3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Do you have someone in mind? What would they do differently?

Pick me! I would have Thread banned him! And not even tell him why.  Because that’s what I’d do.   Although I suspect he still wouldn’t know exactly what is wrong with the talk if I gave a reason.  
 

-Nemesis 

[Bernard Gui]

7 minutes ago, Nemesis said:

Say what you want about my moderating.  But I would have stopped him at hello or Brother and Sister’s.  I could have saved him from himself, like I do with a lot of you all.  (Flex). 
Pick me! I would have Thread banned him! And not even tell him why.  Because that’s what I’d do.   Although I suspect he still wouldn’t know exactly what is wrong with the talk if I gave a reason.  

-Nemesis 

Where have you been over the years when I needed you?

Edited February 9, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

15 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

Thank you for confirming my belief.  Someone has sent Brad Wilcox out to give this message knowing what he was saying.  I have no idea who but it is someone above Brad.  This is sickening.

But now he has been cancelled. 

[Bernard Gui]

47 minutes ago, Moneymaking said:

I don’t buy the apology. He is just sorry he was caught. He has given this talk before:

Are there more?

Edited February 9, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[carbon dioxide]

2 hours ago, kimpearson said:

BYU's announcement this week to cease providing any kind of medical services to transgender individuals.

First, are their transgenders people at BYU?   Second, cease providing any kind of service?  So if a transgender person is hit by a car, they will just let them lay in the road?  If a transgender person is stabbed by a crazy man, they will just let him/her bleed to death?  I don't think that is correct. 

Edited February 9, 2022 by carbon dioxide

[bsjkki]

46 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

Thank you for confirming my belief.  Someone has sent Brad Wilcox out to give this message knowing what he was saying.  I have no idea who but it is someone above Brad.  This is sickening.

Could you explain? I don’t know how the comment confirms your belief. You think he was ordered to give this talk this way? I think this is on him. Would love to compare his words with the same topics covered by others. 

Edited February 9, 2022 by bsjkki

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

Could you explain? I don’t know how the comment confirms your belief. You think he was ordered to give this talk this way? I think the this is on him. Would love to compare his words with the same topics covered by others. 

It is hard to believe that someone told him to go out and present views that are not consistent with the Church.   Nothing would be gained by that but only more problems to deal with.  Wilcox probably is a nice guy who has a good testimony but has some wrong views on things.  He was trusted to give a good talk and instead went off on stuff that was not desired.  I think that is something every bishop worries about when they assign a talk to a member.   You never really know what they are going to say.  99% of the time there is no problem but occasionally....

[kimpearson]

26 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

First, are their transgenders people at BYU?   Second, cease providing any kind of service?  So if a transgender person is hit by a car, they will just let them lay in the road?  If a transgender person is stabbed by a crazy man, they will just let him/her bleed to death?  I don't think that is correct. 

[bsjkki]

2 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

What is the therapy they are referring too? What medical services are being denied? What gender affirming practices were being taught at the speech and hearing clinic? Honestly confused.

[Rain]

 

1 hour ago, 2BizE said:

And..the Primary Presidency isn’t quite as important because they are not listed under the “List” view of General Authorities and General Officers, but they are found under the “Gallery” view.

Thanks! The list seemed short,  but I couldn't put my finger on why for some reason. 

 

[Rain]

2 hours ago, kimpearson said:

I have read your thoughts with great interest and confess to an incredible concern at all the attempts to minimize the profound wrongness of this talk.

Why does it make any difference where the video came from?  Other than an effort to somehow excuse the content of the talk as being unauthorized for public consumption.  The fireside was broadcast on the Church's own broadcast system and linked in YouTube.  John Dehlin was alerted to it by several members in the Alpine stakes as well as numerous TikTok clips.  I don't know if it is still available today but it was available to pretty much any member of the Church on Monday.

What difference does it make whether Brad Wilcox is a GA or GO?  Other than an attempt to argue that somehow his talk doesn't really count.  Brad has been giving similar firesides across the Church to the youth for over a year now.  I have watched similar firesides to the youth in stakes in England and New Zealand.  The Salt Lake Tribune reported he has a similar fireside scheduled for February 20th in California.  None of the other members of the Young Men's general presidency seem to be speaking at such firesides.  My belief founded on nothing but my impressions is that due to Brad Wilcox's history of supposedly appealing to youth, he has been designated to get the message out to the youth.  It is my impression based on discussions with some involved in Church administration, that the Young Men's and Young Women's presidencies have more contact with the top 15 than many of the seventy.  This is because of the emphasis President Nielsen and the quorum of the 12 have placed on the youth.  Brad mentions in his Alpine talk that he just recently met with Elder Uchtdorf.  Brad has been in the presidency for almost 2 years and closely involved in implementing the new youth programs including the For the Strength of youth conferences.  Brad has been exposed to the thinking of the general authorities.  Why would he ever give a talk that didn't echo the thoughts of the general authorities he has been exposed to.  Leaders of the Church from bishop up are conditioned and judged by their ability to support the party line.

Why are some trying to argue this talk doesn't represent the real Brad Wilcox?  Other than to attempt to minimize and excuse the talk as an aberration to be ignored. 

CFR, without mind reading, that anyone here is trying to minimize or excuse the talk.

2 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Yes he gave a talk on the atonement and in general conference that were very appealing.  Go review the other firesides and addresses Brad has given.  You find the same arrogance and statements over and over that he is right and everyone else is wrong with no substance to their beliefs.   He repeats his lie over and over to the youth that if they leave the Church they will lose everything and life will become an unbearable tragedy of darkness and despair.  I have seen discussions of former students stating the Brad talks this way in his religion classes at BYU.  What we saw was the real Brad Wilcox.  His apology was a pathetic attempt to justify his beliefs as a miscommunication.  Where was the apology for demeaning women as somehow being unfaithful or angry for asking about the priesthood?  Where was the apology for the sincere beliefs of literally billions of others who are not members of our church that were given the title of "playing at religion".  How ironic when this same man will argue that other religions don't give the LDS church the respect it deserves.  Where is the apology for labeling the marriages of 99.99% of the worlds as shams?  Where is the apology for the sarcasm and disrespect to the leader of another church Brad supposedly debated with in Idaho Falls, Idaho.  Once again we saw the real Brad Wilcox so quit trying to pretend it was all a big mistake.

This talk was the best example I have ever heard of the philosophies of men mingled with scriptures.  There was nothing virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy in this talks  No one's testimony of Jesus Christ was increased because of this talk.  The contention in this world and church was not reduced by this talk but only increased.  This talk was full of lies, half truths, false doctrine, arrogance and pride.  It was horrible.  No one will ever use this talk to convert someone to the Church.

My bottom line fear is that when you take this talk, Elder Holland's BYU talk, BYU's announcement this week to cease providing any kind of medical services to transgender individuals there is evidence of a shift to harshness as the approach to many of the issues facing the Church.  It breaks my heart how anyone can hurt so many people in the name of supposed righteousness.  

 

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Thank you for confirming my belief.  Someone has sent Brad Wilcox out to give this message knowing what he was saying.  I have no idea who but it is someone above Brad.  This is sickening.

I saw a post that shows John Bytheway put the exact analogy in one of his books. Either Brad used it as well or they both were fed a load of crap from somewhere.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Tacenda

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I saw a post that shows John Bytheway put the exact philosophy in one of his books. Either Brad used it as well or they both were fed a load of crap from somewhere.

Which issue?

[Tacenda]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

Which issue?

I should have taken note. I'd have to figure out where I saw it but it was in one of John Bytheway's books. It was the same analogy Brad used. 

[Navidad]

I would like to make a comment that hasn't been voiced here as of this point. My comment is based on several of my own beliefs, so please consider that as you read them.

It is my belief that this man and his talk has not just caused damage to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but also to the greater Christian community in the world. It is my observation that many of my LDS friends look at the cause of Christ through a telescope. This enables them to see far, but with a very narrow scope, usually that of their own church. I tend to see the cause of Christ through binoculars. I may not see as deeply into any one faith, but I see a broader perspective. My concern is much more for the broad cause of Christ in the world than in the needs, foibles, or vagaries of any one group. Having said that I am keenly aware that quite often in the "world's" mind, we as conservative Christians are often lumped together. The tendency to generalize and normalize is at a pandemic level today. We do it about so many things, especially those that are not consistent with our own world view. The public school system in America is this . . . Conservatives or progressives (dependent on our perspective) are that . . . . conservative Christians are this . . . and on and on.

So, my personal sadness with this talk aside, I am concerned for its impact on the cause of Christ as a whole. Framing from my faith perspective, I believe that Brad Wilcox as an ordained minister of Christ grieved the Holy Spirit with his talk. He gave the world an opportunity to malign the cause of Christ. Only the passionate, faithful, and zealots within our Christian community make denominational distinctions. The fact that I am Mennonite and many of you are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is of no interest to most. It is a distinction without a difference. Together we name the name of Christ, so we represent Him to what as a boy, I learned to call the "world."

Certainly he has provided fodder to the "antis," but far more importantly he has provided a terrible image of a conservative Christian to many more who don't make the distinctions that the majority of us on this forum make. It is of very little importance that he mocked me and my faith; it is of significance (at least to me) that he bruised the cause of Christ in the world. He damaged what most of you and I stand for, taking into consideration all of our differences, which most care not to, or cannot see. Most of us are in a position in our particular faith where we can afford the time and effort needed to debate each other, and perhaps even enjoy it just a little bit, or even a lot. Most of those who have never heard "the GOSPEL" which this talk so sadly proclaimed and maligned are not where we are.

Growing up as a boy, one of the things I was most constantly warned about was never to be a "stumbling block" to someone else's faith or to their search for a faith. There was great fear of accountability for being such to a seeker. From my perspective Brad Wilcox has now become a stumbling block to the greater cause of Christ in the world. Several have stated that his talk has gone "viral." I agree. That is what we together, as those who take upon ourselves the name of Christ and endeavor to be faithful to it should weep about.

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, bsjkki said:

What is the therapy they are referring too? What medical services are being denied? What gender affirming practices were being taught at the speech and hearing clinic? Honestly confused.

Quote

38.6.23 Church leaders counsel against elective medical or surgical intervention for the purpose of attempting to transition to the opposite gender of a person’s biological sex at birth (“sex reassignment”). Leaders advise that taking these actions will be cause for Church membership restrictions.Church leaders counsel against elective medical or surgical intervention for the purpose of attempting to transition to the opposite gender of a person’s biological sex at birth (“sex reassignment”). Leaders advise that taking these actions will be cause for Church membership restrictions.

I’m confused by this reference to the Handbook…

Quote

Today at BYU, the Department of Communication
Disorders was forced to comply with the
administration's interpretation of church policy and
terminate medical services to transgender individuals
at the Speech and Hearing Clinic, citing current church
handbook section 38.6.23.
I'm heart broken for the clients who are denied therapy
that is known to "ease gender dysphoria and reduce
suicidal thoughts" - the same reasons cited in Church
policy 38.6.23 that allows for hormone replacement
therapy for children, youth, and adults.

 

[Calm]

BYU appears to be refusing to offer transitioning services or support, imo. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

I am concerned for its impact on the cause of Christ as a whole.

Quote

 “No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done” (History of the Church, 4:540).

One can add “weak and foolish members trip themselves and others” to the list imo. 
 

Not being dismissive, our scriptures teach us this should be a concern to the faithful.  For example:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/alma/4?lang=eng&id=10#p10
 

Quote

10 And thus ended the eighth year of the reign of the judges; and the wickedness of the church was a great stumbling-block to those who did not belong to the church; and thus the church began to fail in its progress.

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by Calm