Durangout Posted February 9, 2022 Posted February 9, 2022 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Bro Wilcox is also a child of God. What would you suggest? I would suggest that Gen Conf talks be assigned to address Wilcox’s botched fireside: Why are women not ordained? What we think about people of other faiths and their beliefs Why was it that people of African decent weren't’ ordained until ‘78. Why we act with decorum and respect towards others and in sacred settings. How we believe Christ would have us treat people that are different than ourselves. Teach a healthy and accurate place of apostles and prophets. Teach the difference between salvation and exhalation. That would be a good start. Edited February 9, 2022 by Durangout 1
Bernard Gui Posted February 9, 2022 Posted February 9, 2022 1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said: Sorry- I'm not looking for a fight either. Just saw an opportunity to amuse myself with a comment Honestly, the "why now" question seems fairly straight forward to me. The prevalence of recording talks like these due to covid (if not simply the ubiquity of mobile phones) combined with the rapidly changing societal mores both inside and outside the church, seem to make it an opportune time for things to come into the open. Our words and deeds will be shouted from the rooftops. I think everyone should be very cognizant of their words and behaviors in virtually every setting, because things will be seen/heard and recorded, and shared. There is no anonymity for our behavior. If I behave badly in my little town that bad behavior could be spread far and wide. I have to accept and expect that. This reality makes the opportunity for spreading goodness or badness, beyond our regular/expected spheres of influence, very likely. And we can't really make the argument that someone shouldn't have recorded or shared. The truth is, if it was bad, we shouldn't have said or did it. It's the actions and words that cause the problem, not the fact that they are shared. Thank you. We are mostly in agreement I noted this earlier. Perhaps rather than outing the man for public humiliation,cancellation, and censure, which seems to be the new normal, there could have been a more charitable way to help him and move him along. That would be better than the expose-you-we-cancel-you all-Justice-no-charity-approach, imo. Perhaps the Church needs to revisit this way of communicating the message through popular speakers, or the way he presented it; however, it seems incongruous with what I have been hearing from other authorities. The message of the Restoration is good news, but it can’t get a positive response in todays climate no matter how it is couched. That’s just my opinion.
Bernard Gui Posted February 9, 2022 Posted February 9, 2022 18 minutes ago, Durangout said: I would suggest that Gen Conf talks be assigned to address Wilcox’s botched fireside: Why are women not ordained? What we think about people of other faiths and their beliefs Why was it that people of African decent weren't’ ordained until ‘78. Why we act with decorum and respect towards others and in sacred settings. How we believe Christ would have us treat people that are different than ourselves. Teach a healthy and accurate place of apostles and prophets. Teach the difference between salvation and exhalation. That would be a good start. These have already been done multiple times. Perhaps people don’t listen. 1
ttribe Posted February 9, 2022 Posted February 9, 2022 5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Thank you. We are mostly in agreement I noted this earlier. Perhaps rather than outing the man for public humiliation,cancellation, and censure, which seems to be the new normal, there could have been a more charitable way to help him and move him along. That would be better than the expose-you-we-cancel-you all-Justice-no-charity-approach, imo. Perhaps the Church needs to revisit this way of communicating the message through popular speakers, or the way he presented it; however, it seems incongruous with what I have been hearing from other authorities. The message of the Restoration is good news, but it can’t get a positive response in todays climate no matter how it is couched. That’s just my opinion. Again, he wasn't outed. The video was posted in the now ordinary course of such meetings. The reaction is new, the posting was not part of some nefarious scheme.
Bernard Gui Posted February 9, 2022 Posted February 9, 2022 31 minutes ago, bluebell said: I actually think the "why now" is a really important question. If he's been doing this same talk for years why have no members until this one been upset? I have no good answer to that question but I'm seriously wondering. Agreed. There are other less divisive and humiliating ways to fix this.
Bernard Gui Posted February 9, 2022 Posted February 9, 2022 (edited) 30 minutes ago, ttribe said: Again, he wasn't outed. The video was posted in the now ordinary course of such meetings. The reaction is new, the posting was not part of some nefarious scheme. I’m not suggesting he was, but you must agree that there are many elements in our new society who seek out ways to cancel people and movements. The handbook says not to record meetings. Are you saying the recording was made and broadcast by the local or general Church? Edited February 9, 2022 by Bernard Gui
Popular Post SeekingUnderstanding Posted February 9, 2022 Popular Post Posted February 9, 2022 34 minutes ago, bluebell said: I actually think the "why now" is a really important question. If he's been doing this same talk for years why have no members until this one been upset? I have no good answer to that question but I'm seriously wondering. This one was broadcast over zoom and disseminated to a wide audience. There is evidence. Look at George Floyd. People have complained about police violence for years and years, but once you can see it on video it makes it irrefutable. What if someone came on this forum and complained about a horrible talk from Wilcox. People would ask for context and would generally give the GO the benefit of the doubt over the complainer. When you can actually go and listen to an hour of cringe? It’s undeniable. 6
SeekingUnderstanding Posted February 9, 2022 Posted February 9, 2022 47 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Bro Wilcox is also a child of God. What would you suggest? With great power comes great responsibility. His Facebook apology was a good first step but he has yet to fully acknowledge all that was wrong in that talk. A talk he has given for years. He needs to publicly own it. Then he needs to try and reach out and contact the thousands of youth that he has influenced poorly as a representative of Christ and His church over the years and try to set the record straight. Isn’t that what the church teaches regarding repentance? As an addiction counselor, isn’t this obvious as one of the 12 steps? 3
Bernard Gui Posted February 9, 2022 Posted February 9, 2022 (edited) 19 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: With great power comes great responsibility. His Facebook apology was a good first step but he has yet to fully acknowledge all that was wrong in that talk. A talk he has given for years. He needs to publicly own it. Then he needs to try and reach out and contact the thousands of youth that he has influenced poorly as a representative of Christ and His church over the years and try to set the record straight. Isn’t that what the church teaches regarding repentance? As an addiction counselor, isn’t this obvious as one of the 12 steps? Again, I am not looking for a fight. That time has passed for me, so I request you not personalize this. His influence over the years has not been completely evil. I reckon he has done some good things along the way. Does this cancel all that? This is the first time I have heard this particular talk, so I have nothing with which to compare it except other things I have heard from him. It seems out of character to me, but I am not a follower of him. I’m sure there are already steps being taken to correct him and I am sure he is more than willing to follow them. I’ll wait to see how it plays out. In the meantime I’m willing to forgive as I have been forgiven. At this point I see no need to point fingers at folks higher up, but maybe things in the system need to change. We’ll see. Edited February 9, 2022 by Bernard Gui 1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted February 9, 2022 Posted February 9, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Again, I am not looking for a fight. That time has passed for me, so I request you not personalize this. His influence over the years has not been completely evil. I reckon he has done some good things along the way. Does this cancel all that? This is the first time I have heard this particular talk, so I have nothing with which to compare it except other things I have heard from him. It seems out of character to me, but I am not a follower of him. I’m sure there are already steps being taken to correct him and I am sure he is more than willing to follow them. I’ll wait to see how it plays out. In the meantime I’m willing to forgive as I have been forgiven. At this point I see no need to point fingers at folks higher up, but maybe things in the system need to change. We’ll see. Was not attempting to personalize so my apologies merely pointing out that making restitution is a standard part of 12 steps, as well as the church repentance process. People are more than their mistakes. But when we make mistakes (especially as a leader) we have a responsibility to rectify the wrong done. I’ve seen nothing that comes close to this from Wilcox, but perhaps it will be forthcoming? This is a great opportunity for growth for him and the church if they want to take it. Edited February 9, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding 1
Bernard Gui Posted February 9, 2022 Posted February 9, 2022 (edited) 29 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: This one was broadcast over zoom and disseminated to a wide audience. There is evidence. Look at George Floyd. People have complained about police violence for years and years, but once you can see it on video it makes it irrefutable. What if someone came on this forum and complained about a horrible talk from Wilcox. People would ask for context and would generally give the GO the benefit of the doubt over the complainer. When you can actually go and listen to an hour of cringe? It’s undeniable. AFAIK, Church Zoom broadcasts are not usually recorded on site. Edited February 9, 2022 by Bernard Gui
Bernard Gui Posted February 9, 2022 Posted February 9, 2022 Just now, SeekingUnderstanding said: Was not attempting to personalize so my apologies merely pointing out that making restitution is a standard part of 12 steps, as well as the church repentance process. People are more than there mistakes. But when we make mistakes (especially as a leader) we have a responsibility to rectify the wrong done. I’ve seen nothing that comes close to this from Wilcox, but perhaps it will be forthcoming? This is a great opportunity for growth for him and the church if they want to take it. Well, we can agree on this. Does this cancel his lifetime of service? That seems to be what some are asking for.
juliann Posted February 9, 2022 Posted February 9, 2022 11 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: It is hard to believe that someone told him to go out and present views that are not consistent with the Church. Nothing would be gained by that but only more problems to deal with. Wilcox probably is a nice guy who has a good testimony but has some wrong views on things. He was trusted to give a good talk and instead went off on stuff that was not desired. I think that is something every bishop worries about when they assign a talk to a member. You never really know what they are going to say. 99% of the time there is no problem but occasionally.... I've seen enough reports of him giving the same talk that I don't think it can be pinned on him going rogue. I suppose it is possible organizers had merely heard he gave great talks or something....but usually speaker names only come up because someone has heard that great talk. 2
SeekingUnderstanding Posted February 9, 2022 Posted February 9, 2022 1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said: Zoom broadcasts are not usually recorded on site. I didn’t say they were. None the less unlike previous similar talks this one was recorded in good quality and broadcast. This allowed for someone to easily save it and broadly disseminate it. I really don’t see why people want to fixate on this aspect rather than the horrendous talk and the damage done to all those that have heard it and similar over the years. 1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted February 9, 2022 Posted February 9, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Does this cancel his lifetime of service? That seems to be what some are asking for. Who? Edited February 9, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding 1
Navidad Posted February 9, 2022 Posted February 9, 2022 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: Speaking from sad experience, Ecclesiastes 10:1 Dead flies cause the ointment of the apothecary to send forth a stinking savour: so doth a little folly him that is in reputation for wisdom and honor. I suppose we all experience this to some extent. I wonder what the charitable response would be for Bro Wilcox? He certainly has been publicly judged. Now what? Wonderful question. Now what? I have no idea how to answer that. I don't know either him or his heart. A few verses later in the same chapter it says, "He that diggeth a pit shall fall into it." He has fallen into a pit of his own making. If he gave me his hand, I would help him out of it. If I gave him my hand and he refused it, I would still try a few more times. Then I would simply sigh and come to the conclusion that he thinks being in the pit is better than accepting my help. 2
juliann Posted February 9, 2022 Posted February 9, 2022 1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said: Well, we can agree on this. Does this cancel his lifetime of service? That seems to be what some are asking for. The church is going to have to do something if this hits national news and it doesn't seem to be dying down. This puts the church in the position of having to do a much more comprehensive apology/correction than has been offered....or to slide him out of view, like the Randy Bott retirement. 1
Bernard Gui Posted February 9, 2022 Posted February 9, 2022 3 minutes ago, juliann said: The church is going to have to do something if this hits national news and it doesn't seem to be dying down. This puts the church in the position of having to do a much more comprehensive apology/correction than has been offered....or to slide him out of view, like the Randy Bott retirement. Yes, I agree. It will hit the news, if it already hasn’t. It’s the new normal. It will be more difficult because of his position.
juliann Posted February 9, 2022 Posted February 9, 2022 3 hours ago, CA Steve said: You do realize that you weren't even a member pre-priesthood ban, right? I have listened to both McConkie and Petersen speak live. I served my mission before the ban was lifted and used many of these "caricatures" to explain to potential members what the stance of the church was on these issues. I was at BYU when the ban was lifted. Claiming to be a member 30 years plus is to have very little understanding of what the church was like in the 50s, 60's and 70's. That is important because the people leading the church today were adults already in those times. I have been a member for over 60 years, in more states and wards than I can remember. I lived in Provo in the early 60's and again through the 70's and early 80's when the church was facing national censure for its priesthood ban. I have had long conversations with my father who played and coached at BYU during this same time, who was totally convinced there was no racial motive going on with the ban. I have seen these caricatures taught and believed repeatedly during this time by people who were convinced they had no racial or gender bias. I still have conversations with people in the church who firmly believe there is no gender bias within the church. There is a huge distinction between being "taught" something and hearing something at church by a random member. Of course the earlier years were full of this stuff. Of course things are still said. But I've been in wards in three states the past few years and there were very few times there wasn't some correction given after an unfortunate statement by someone. That is less likely if it is a talk, because there isn't audience feedback, but in classes it is quite consistent. It only takes one member to put a stop to most of the racist/sexist claptrap because it isn't considered acceptable anymore. It is increasingly rare to not have at least one member doing it. You are wanting to use times when it was acceptable to say awful things so stop it. 3
Bernard Gui Posted February 9, 2022 Posted February 9, 2022 8 minutes ago, Navidad said: Wonderful question. Now what? I have no idea how to answer that. I don't know either him or his heart. A few verses later in the same chapter it says, "He that diggeth a pit shall fall into it." He has fallen into a pit of his own making. If he gave me his hand, I would help him out of it. If I gave him my hand and he refused it, I would still try a few more times. Then I would simply sigh and come to the conclusion that he thinks being in the pit is better than accepting my help. Thank you for understanding my point. From what I know of him, I reckon he is suffering greatly right now. I doubt very much that he would reject help getting out of the pit. 1
Bernard Gui Posted February 9, 2022 Posted February 9, 2022 (edited) 13 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Who? The mob of commenters on the YouTube video and elsewhere, any others who want to see his humiliation and cancellation. Edited February 9, 2022 by Bernard Gui
SeekingUnderstanding Posted February 9, 2022 Posted February 9, 2022 1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said: The mob of commenters on the YouTube video and elsewhere, any others who want to see his humiliation and cancellation. I’d suggest you never read YouTube comment sections. 1
Bernard Gui Posted February 9, 2022 Posted February 9, 2022 15 minutes ago, juliann said: I've seen enough reports of him giving the same talk that I don't think it can be pinned on him going rogue. I suppose it is possible organizers had merely heard he gave great talks or something....but usually speaker names only come up because someone has heard that great talk. Hmmm. None of my great talks have been noticed. 🙃 IMO this is the problem with the speaker circuit. Perhaps some “adjustments” will be made. When we push celebrity, we have to own what shakes out. 4
mfbukowski Posted February 9, 2022 Posted February 9, 2022 57 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: These have already been done multiple times. Ad nauseum. Bad latin, but true.
Bernard Gui Posted February 9, 2022 Posted February 9, 2022 1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: I’d suggest you never read YouTube comment sections. I don’t agree. Would you suggest ignoring TikTok as well? The braying crowd has become the arbiter of Justice for many.
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