Are the rules just whatever God wants?

[california boy]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

It only takes one (one law, not a religious belief -- you've conflated God's laws with religious belief within 2 posts!). Can you think of one?

I don't know what you are talking about.  Of the thousands of religious beliefs, can you give me 10 religious laws that everyone agrees upon.  Since you stated that everyone agrees on the same laws of God I thought you could whip out just 10 of those laws that everyone believes in.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Olmec Donald said:

I'm not entirely sure that "the rules" as we know them are necessarily at the most fundamental level.  Consider for instance that many of "the rules" under the Law of Moses are no longer in effect.

My understanding is that two core principles are the foundation for "the law" AND "the prophets":  We are to love God completely, and to love our neighbor as ourself.  Thus "the law" (i.e. "the rules") and "the prophets" (the scriptures?) are presumably supposed to be the practical applications of these two core principles.  

Unfortunately I am not wise enough to always see how these two core principles directly translate into "the rules".  "Love your neighbor as yourself" sometimes seems to me to imply something different from what "the rules" say.

I have far more confidence in the permanence of these two core principles than I have in the permanence of "the rules".

100% 

[CV75]

26 minutes ago, california boy said:

I don't know what you are talking about.  Of the thousands of religious beliefs, can you give me 10 religious laws that everyone agrees upon.  Since you stated that everyone agrees on the same laws of God I thought you could whip out just 10 of those laws that everyone believes in.

Of course you don't. I think I pointed that out, and I pointed out that you don't know what you are talking about. Laws are not religious beliefs. Following is not believing.

Again: I said everyone does follow the same laws. In the case of that which is often touted as the universal moral compass or conscience, doctrinally, this would be the light of Christ; secularly and philosophically, there are many schools of thought, but all converge on similar behaviors*. In this case, “follow” generally means acting. The same natural or physical laws are imposed upon us all**. In this case, “follow” means being acted upon.

I can come up with 10 of each. Hopefully I've set you straight enough that you can too.

* while not everyone would agree on a message board simply for the sake of argument and refutation, many of the moral points in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights cover these, and can be observed in their own versions among primitive societies unaware of the UN.

** Check any highs school physical science textbook.

[california boy]

20 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Of course you don't. I think I pointed that out, and I pointed out that you don't know what you are talking about. Laws are not religious beliefs. Following is not believing.

Again: I said everyone does follow the same laws. In the case of that which is often touted as the universal moral compass or conscience, doctrinally, this would be the light of Christ; secularly and philosophically, there are many schools of thought, but all converge on similar behaviors*. In this case, “follow” generally means acting. The same natural or physical laws are imposed upon us all**. In this case, “follow” means being acted upon.

I can come up with 10 of each. Hopefully I've set you straight enough that you can too.

* while not everyone would agree on a message board simply for the sake of argument and refutation, many of the moral points in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights cover these, and can be observed in their own versions among primitive societies unaware of the UN.

** Check any highs school physical science textbook.

Oh sorry.  I thought the Laws in the old and new testament were relgious laws.  I don't look at the laws of physic as laws of God.  I think of them as, well, laws of physics.

[Daniel2]

9 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Two previous comments got me thinking about the idea that God can change what he allows or approves of according to his will.  These comments imply that all laws and commandments come according to what God desires at any given time.

I unsurprisingly have multiple concerns with such thinking.  Not the least among these is the troubling idea of a fickle, inconstant deity.

For context, the first poster stated God could give priesthood to anyone he wants any time he wants, even going so far to include animals.  The second poster suggested that God can issue new approval for things that have never yet existed any time he wants.  In this case SSM or female ordination.

What does everyone think - do rules and divine approval of them simply come from what God personally wants for us at any given time?  Are laws subject to God or is God subject to law?

According to Joseph Smith:

That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another. God said, "Thou shalt not kill;" at another time He said, "Thou shalt utterly destroy." This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted--by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Daniel2

[sunstoned]

8 hours ago, california boy said:

It has been my experience that God's laws tend to be what mankind wants them to be.  If they were all so clear cut, everyone would be following the same laws.

Agreed.  If the revelations and laws are studied in context, it does seem like it is something the "leaders" want at the time. Playing the "revelation" card can be a way to bring the followers in line.

[sunstoned]

8 hours ago, CV75 said:

But everyone does follow the same laws, by and large.

Quote

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. "This is the first and great commandment. "And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

This seems like a straightforward couple of laws.  Christ even prioritized them for us.  How many people in the world really follow these laws?

[JustAnAustralian]

6 hours ago, sunstoned said:

How many people in the world really follow these laws?

Reminds me of Robert Kirby's five types of Mormons article.

[CV75]

11 hours ago, california boy said:

Oh sorry.  I thought the Laws in the old and new testament were relgious laws.  I don't look at the laws of physic as laws of God.  I think of them as, well, laws of physics.

Yes, it is a matter of definition, description, semantics and context. The Church acknowledges that in the Guide to the Scriptures which contains references to these many uses and aspects of "law": https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/law?lang=eng

What about the laws of human nature such as those that Universal Declaration of Human Rights attempts to articulate? And since these are also natural or physical laws to a great extent (given that human beings are natural and physical beings as well as spiritual beings), do you believe God does not govern and use these laws as part of the plan of happiness?

[CV75]

10 hours ago, sunstoned said:

This seems like a straightforward couple of laws.  Christ even prioritized them for us.  How many people in the world really follow these laws?

Let's look at what laws everyone follows (exceptions allowed and corrected within the context of their society that follows them): In the case of that which is often touted as the universal moral compass or conscience, doctrinally, this would be the light of Christ; secularly and philosophically, there are many schools of thought, but all converge on similar behaviors*. In this case, “follow” generally means acting. The same natural or physical laws are imposed upon us all. In this case, “follow” means being acted upon.

* for example, many of the moral points in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights cover these, and can be observed in their own versions among primitive societies unaware of the UN. ** gravity is often used as an example, but look at how many laws are studied by the various sciences and philosophies.

The discussion requires a measure of definition, description, semantics and context. The Church acknowledges that in the Guide to the Scriptures which contains references to these many uses and aspects of "law": https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/law?lang=eng

So I would say there are far more laws that humanity has in common and follows than not, and I attribute all these laws to God  Of course people will disagree on religious laws which are very granular in comparison, but so what?

 

 

[Navidad]

As always I need clarity. Are you talking about God's laws, natural laws (which may overlap), civil laws? I think the differences would certainly create differences in my answers to your poll, although I replied based on the thinking you were talking about human or civil laws. I am a strong believer in natural or human rights or laws, granted to humanity as beings made in God's image with a spark of divinity intrinsic in us.

[CV75]

7 hours ago, Navidad said:

As always I need clarity. Are you talking about God's laws, natural laws (which may overlap), civil laws? I think the differences would certainly create differences in my answers to your poll, although I replied based on the thinking you were talking about human or civil laws. I am a strong believer in natural or human rights or laws, granted to humanity as beings made in God's image with a spark of divinity intrinsic in us.

I think that all laws are God's laws. Reference has been made to man-made religious laws, civil laws, etc. and I take these to be subsets of, or dependent on, God's laws, albeit many are imperfectly understood, applied and executed. He doesn't approve of all the uses of the law of agency, but He lets the consequences follow because that is how that law works. In this sense, a law is a system with subsystems supporting a corresponding kind of existence.

The D&C says, "All kingdoms have a law given; And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions." I see God as the organizer of kingdoms, and in this regard He establishes the laws for those kingdoms (a kingdom being a kind of existence).

For example, there is a kingdom of chaos from which He organizes more ordered worlds, and eventually worlds that can be inhabited by various levels of element and intelligent life, and these eventually quickened by degrees of glory matching the willingness of those inhabitants to enjoy.

Edited January 24, 2022 by CV75

[JLHPROF]

Thanks everyone.  Interesting to see the split opinions beyond members.

I always enjoy seeing poll results from our board.  Any idea that members are afflicted with groupthink is easily shown wrong.

[Hamba Tuhan]

23 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

According to Joseph Smith:

That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another. God said, "Thou shalt not kill;" at another time He said, "Thou shalt utterly destroy." This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted--by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.

This is one of the most essential elements of the Restoration!

When I was at university before my mission, it never crossed my mind not to study on Sundays, but during my mission, I had a experience that made very clear that, for me, this was no longer an option. So upon returning to university, I planned everything very carefully and successfully avoided the need to study on Sundays.

Then one week, despite working every day from early morning till late at night, I found myself going to bed late Saturday night having not even started drafting an essay that was due Monday morning. Convinced that God would understand, I determined to work on it after church the next day, and crashed into bed.

As I was waiting for the service to start in the chapel the next morning, I randomly opened my scriptures to Isaiah 58 and read verses 13 and 14:

Quote

If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

Message received. I didn't know what would happen, but in faith, I went home from church that day and turned away from writing the essay. Before bed that night, I prayed and asked the Lord to bless me that somehow I would be able to write a passing essay when I awoke early the next morning. During the night, an entire essay (on the correct topic!) was dictated to me in my sleep, so clearly that I was able to wake up, walk into my housemate's bedroom, and type the entire thing out in less than 30 minutes, never once stopping to think or even to change a word. Score: A.

I thought I had mastered this new aspect of my life!

Two years later, in my final year of study, I again found myself in the exact same situation. I knew what to do: trust in the Lord and wait for the miracle.

But this time, as I was sitting in the chapel, I heard a clear, still voice: 'Hamba, go home and write the essay'. I carefully explained that I couldn't do that. 'Hamba, go home and write the essay'. I recognised the voice, so I went home and wrote the essay. I was prepared for it to feel like study, but instead, somehow, it felt like worship, and the day felt like a Sabbath day devoid of essay writing. Score: A.

Confused, I brought up this matter the next time I was in the temple. My prayer was basically: Why do You tell me to do one thing and then tell me to do the exact opposite?

The response was kind and merciful but clear: 'Because I need you to learn to live by revelation'.

[Olmec Donald]

30 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Confused, I brought up this matter the next time I was in the temple. My prayer was basically: Why do You tell me to do one thing and then tell me to do the exact opposite?

The response was kind and merciful but clear: 'Because I need you to learn to live by revelation'.

Thank you for sharing this with us.  It makes a lot of sense to me.  

 

[mrmarklin]

On 1/22/2022 at 12:28 PM, california boy said:

Ah, no they don't.  Of the thousands of religious beliefs, can you give me 10 religious belief that everyone agrees upon?

The Ten Commandments. At least for Christians. 

[Meadowchik]

Interesting questions, but there are assumptions built in, namely that rules previously identified as God's are God's. 

The meat of this topic, for me, is that if there is some universal True or Good then God must align with it. So the priority for me would be to learn those principles and align with them and concern myself less with what others say about God.

[JustAnAustralian]

43 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

The meat of this topic, for me, is that if there is some universal True or Good then God must align with it

Yes, but that gets back to the philosophy of it.

Is something good/right  because God commands it,  or does God command it because it is good/right?

[california boy]

10 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

The Ten Commandments. At least for Christians. 

Oh everyone agrees they are commandments from God.  But not everyone agrees on how they are to be obeyed.  For example, how one keeps the sabbath day holy or thou shall not kill, has very wide interpretations.

[mrmarklin]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

Oh everyone agrees they are commandments from God.  But not everyone agrees on how they are to be obeyed.  For example, how one keeps the sabbath day holy or thou shall not kill, has very wide interpretations.

Quit nitpicking. Lame. 

[california boy]

2 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

Quit nitpicking. Lame. 

My fault.  I guess you are right after all.  All these thousands of religion completely agree on what God's laws are.  Everything is crystal clear.  We all live the 10 commandments exactly the same.  A different perspective is lame.

Edited January 25, 2022 by california boy

[James 1 5]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

My fault.  I guess you are right after all.  All these thousands of religion completely agree on what God's laws are.  Everything is crystal clear.  We all live the 10 commandments exactly the same.  A different perspective is lame.

The fact that different people believe different things makes it fairly obvious to me that our Father will be sending people to different places.  And supposedly everyone will believe they are "happy" to be whatever they are wherever they go.

I see it as a beautiful plan.  It may be best to just not ask others what they think of your particular chosen lifestyle.

[california boy]

3 minutes ago, James 1 5 said:

The fact that different people believe different things makes it fairly obvious to me that our Father will be sending people to different places.  And supposedly everyone will believe they are "happy" to be whatever they are wherever they go.

I see it as a beautiful plan.  It may be best to just not ask others what they think of your particular chosen lifestyle.

Welcome to this discussion board.  I appreciate your advice, but honestly, I think most people on this board realizes that I don't really care what anyone thinks of my particular lifestyle.  The only person I care about is God.  And I am very much at peace with Him.

[Meadowchik]

14 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Yes, but that gets back to the philosophy of it.

Is something good/right  because God commands it,  or does God command it because it is good/right?

It does, unless you've already solved that puzzle. At least in Mormonism, historically the answer has been the latter. 

Another way to phrase it is, "Is God God because God aligns with Truth or is Truth Truth because it aligns with God?"

 

[James 1 5]

21 hours ago, california boy said:

Welcome to this discussion board.  I appreciate your advice, but honestly, I think most people on this board realizes that I don't really care what anyone thinks of my particular lifestyle.  The only person I care about is God.  And I am very much at peace with Him.

I wasn't offering any advice, really, just saying it may be best to just not ask others what they think of your lifestyle, especially when you really don't care what they think.  I have found that works pretty well for me, and I really don't care what anyone thinks of my lifestyle, either. Other than God.  And my wife, my life partner, who I chose as my wife because she is everything I wanted for my life partner, companion.  So it seems we are like minded on this issue, even though I am sure we are different in other ways.

Thank you for welcoming me to this board.  I like sharing my own beliefs with others while hoping others might want to listen.  I believe we are all social creatures who like to share what we think. Even though we often don't really care what others think.