Are the rules just whatever God wants?

[Rivers]

On 1/22/2022 at 12:09 PM, JLHPROF said:

Two previous comments got me thinking about the idea that God can change what he allows or approves of according to his will.  These comments imply that all laws and commandments come according to what God desires at any given time.

I unsurprisingly have multiple concerns with such thinking.  Not the least among these is the troubling idea of a fickle, inconstant deity.

For context, the first poster stated God could give priesthood to anyone he wants any time he wants, even going so far to include animals.  The second poster suggested that God can issue new approval for things that have never yet existed any time he wants.  In this case SSM or female ordination.

What does everyone think - do rules and divine approval of them simply come from what God personally wants for us at any given time?  Are laws subject to God or is God subject to law?

Trying to understand the workings of the supreme ruler of the universe is a frivolous exercise.

[JLHPROF]

50 minutes ago, Rivers said:

Trying to understand the workings of the supreme ruler of the universe is a frivolous exercise.

This is life eternal, that they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

Sounds like a requirement, not frivolous.

Edited January 27, 2022 by JLHPROF

[2BizE]

Yes, and God seems to change his mind a lot, especially in the last few years.

[Rivers]

10 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

This is life eternal, that they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

Sounds like a requirement, not frivolous.

I’ve always interpreted this passage viewing “knowing” in the relational sense 

[Teancum]

On 1/22/2022 at 2:09 PM, JLHPROF said:

Two previous comments got me thinking about the idea that God can change what he allows or approves of according to his will.  These comments imply that all laws and commandments come according to what God desires at any given time.

I unsurprisingly have multiple concerns with such thinking.  Not the least among these is the troubling idea of a fickle, inconstant deity.

For context, the first poster stated God could give priesthood to anyone he wants any time he wants, even going so far to include animals.  The second poster suggested that God can issue new approval for things that have never yet existed any time he wants.  In this case SSM or female ordination.

What does everyone think - do rules and divine approval of them simply come from what God personally wants for us at any given time?  Are laws subject to God or is God subject to law?

IT seems to me that based on Joseph Smith's "Happiness Letter" to Nancy Rigdon, the God he believed in could command and revoke whenever and whatever he wanted and it is simply our job to obey.

[Teancum]

On 1/22/2022 at 2:50 PM, california boy said:

It has been my experience that God's laws tend to be what mankind wants them to be.  If they were all so clear cut, everyone would be following the same laws.

Well that is because all  gods humans have worshipped from the dawn of time are made in the image of humans.

[Teancum]

12 hours ago, Rivers said:

Trying to understand the workings of the supreme ruler of the universe is a frivolous exercise.

Indeed.  But why do so many think they know what God is and what God wants us to do?

[JLHPROF]

52 minutes ago, Teancum said:

IT seems to me that based on Joseph Smith's "Happiness Letter" to Nancy Rigdon, the God he believed in could command and revoke whenever and whatever he wanted and it is simply our job to obey.

Bit of an overstatement but I understand the sentiment.

That statement correctly indicates that our job is to obey and do whatever God commands at any given time.

It makes no statement that God can do whatever he wants or break his own laws.  It's more about our responsibility, not God's tendency.

Edited January 27, 2022 by JLHPROF

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Well that is because all  gods humans have worshipped from the dawn of time are made in the image of humans.

That's only fair.  God made us in his image first.

[Rivers]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

Indeed.  But why do so many think they know what God is and what God wants us to do?

Hubris.

[Saint Bonaventure]

This thread has me more confused than a chameleon in a bag of Skittles.

Just because my LDS friends hold to the idea that creeds are written by a decaf drinking Beelzebub, can't they also have some basic faith statement like "Jesus is just alright with us," or "the laws that bind Jesus are just alright with us?" or both?

I'm so confused that I don't even know what questions to ask.

I apologize if I offended any fans of The Doobie Brothers.

 

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

apologize if I offended any fans of The Doobie Brothers.

Impossible. 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

This thread has me more confused than a chameleon in a bag of Skittles.

Just because my LDS friends hold to the idea that creeds are written by a decaf drinking Beelzebub, can't they also have some basic faith statement like "Jesus is just alright with us," or "the laws that bind Jesus are just alright with us?" or both?

I'm so confused that I don't even know what questions to ask.

I apologize if I offended any fans of The Doobie Brothers.

 

Oops, wrong thread.

Edited January 29, 2022 by bluebell

[mfbukowski]

On 1/22/2022 at 11:09 AM, JLHPROF said:

Are laws subject to God or is God subject to law?

Words mess up everything.

Both, theoretically but it ain't going to happen because for him there is no past or present, he sees all of eternity at once, as one eternal round. He know what conditions will change and "plans ahead"

But God is subject to LAW HE HAS CREATED FOR HIMSELF, voluntarily = Self determination, the highest form of liberty.

Like if you go on a diet and "forbid yourself" from chocolate cake.

Except He does not break his rules.

Edited January 29, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

On 1/27/2022 at 5:48 AM, Teancum said:

Well that is because all  gods humans have worshipped from the dawn of time are made in the image of humans.

Tautology.

A=A

God is human and so are we!

Why is this so difficult?

Joseph solved that Day One. He saw an embodied God.

Poof. One alleged mystery shot to....

Well anyway it disappeared.

[mfbukowski]

On 1/22/2022 at 11:50 AM, california boy said:

It has been my experience that God's laws tend to be what mankind wants them to be.  

nevermind 

Edited January 29, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

This thread has me more confused than a chameleon in a bag of Skittles.

Just because my LDS friends hold to the idea that creeds are written by a decaf drinking Beelzebub, can't they also have some basic faith statement like "Jesus is just alright with us," or "the laws that bind Jesus are just alright with us?" or both?

I'm so confused that I don't even know what questions to ask.

I apologize if I offended any fans of The Doobie Brothers.

 

Orthopraxy.

Follow the spirit and go to the temple.

"Do this:

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/october-2019-general-conference-temple-recommend

The crowning jewel of the Restoration [the process of fully establishing the Church of Jesus Christ on earth] is the holy temple,” President Nelson said. “Individual worthiness to enter the Lord’s house requires much individual spiritual preparation. But with the Lord’s help, nothing is impossible. In some respects, it is easier to build a temple than it is to build a people prepared for a temple. Individual worthiness requires a total conversion of mind and heart to be more like the Lord, to be an honest citizen, to be a better example and to be a holier person.”

Edited January 29, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

This thread has me more confused than a chameleon in a bag of Skittles.

Just because my LDS friends hold to the idea that creeds are written by a decaf drinking Beelzebub, can't they also have some basic faith statement like "Jesus is just alright with us," or "the laws that bind Jesus are just alright with us?" or both?

I'm so confused that I don't even know what questions to ask.

I apologize if I offended any fans of The Doobie Brothers.

 

Well, there is this, as close to a creed as there is, but it was essentially a letter written to a newspaper which had the same question!!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_of_Faith_(Latter_Day_Saints)

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Words mess up everything.

Both, theoretically but it ain't going to happen because for him there is no past or present, he sees all of eternity at once, as one eternal round. He know what conditions will change and "plans ahead"

But God is subject to LAW HE HAS CREATED FOR HIMSELF, voluntarily = Self determination, the highest form of liberty.

Like if you go on a diet and "forbid yourself" from chocolate cake.

Except He does not break his rules.

I don't believe that at all.  I believe as Joseph taught that he was once a man on an earth.  He became God by obeying the same laws we have to.  So to name him the creator of law is to say that they didn't exist prior to his creations.  That I don't believe.

As you said:

Quote

God is human and so are we!

Why is this so difficult?

Joseph solved that Day One. He saw an embodied God.

 

Edited January 29, 2022 by JLHPROF

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't believe that at all.  I believe as Joseph taught that he was once a man on an earth.  He became God by obeying the same laws we have to.  So to name him the creator of law is to say that they didn't exist prior to his creations.  That I don't believe.

As you said:

 

Nah.

So because laws existed before you were born, you still DECIDE to FOLLOW them, right?

There are a few folks around in this world, like all of us  who have broken laws deliberately, even laws that were around before we were born.

Or don't you think that God can break laws? He had agency,  just as we do!!

Scrips say that if he broke his laws, he would cease to be divine.

You know, like Adam, who represents "every human" including God.

I think we tend not to follow the idea that God is a glorified human to its limits.

It may be there are as many ways of creating worlds as there are ways of arranging your living room furniture!

All are legal, you pick the one that suits you best!

 

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by mfbukowski

[CA Steve]

I think asking what God can and cannot do is placing the cart before the horse, as it were. Even within Mormonism there is a lot of confusion as to the nature of God, especially God the father. For example is God the Father a completely different being than any others anywhere, or, is He simply just an unimaginably advanced version of ourselves?

If you believe he is a different being, where did He come from and who made the rules which He has to obey? I don't think Mormonism provides answers to those questions and, for the most part does not even ask them.

[The Nehor]

On 1/27/2022 at 8:12 AM, Teancum said:

Indeed.  But why do so many think they know what God is and what God wants us to do?

Because God tells them to go out and proclaim Him. They are as incredulous about why they have been asked to do this as you are.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

I think asking what God can and cannot do is placing the cart before the horse, as it were. Even within Mormonism there is a lot of confusion as to the nature of God, especially God the father. For example is God the Father a completely different being than any others anywhere, or, is He simply just an unimaginably advanced version of ourselves?

If you believe he is a different being, where did He come from and who made the rules which He has to obey? I don't think Mormonism provides answers to those questions and, for the most part does not even ask them.

You're probably right.  I'm not sure why such confusion exists given that the prophets clearly taught he was once a mortal man who advanced.

I suppose it could be that so many cling to more traditionally protestant ideas, even among our members.  They LIKE the big, unknowable God that is far removed from the kind of beings we see in the mirror.  There's some irony there that we crave separation and closeness at the same time and disregard Joseph's teachings.

We're the Children of Israel.  Moses wants to lead us to God's literal presence but we prefer worshipping at the base of the mountain 🏔️. 

[Olmec Donald]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

... the prophets clearly taught he was once a mortal man who advanced.

Was God the Father, Creator of the universe, once a mortal man like us who had many failings and imperfections, or was he a perfect man like his son Jesus Christ?  

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Olmec Donald

[The Nehor]

12 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said:

Was God the Father, Creator of the universe, once a mortal man like us who had many failings and imperfections, or was he a perfect man like his son Jesus Christ?  

 

My guess is neither.