Clean up your act online, church tells Latter-day Saints

[MiserereNobis]

24 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That’s true. Similarly the name of the old Soviet Union was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR). Yet I wouldn’t regard the Soviet regime (or any of its satellite governments) as a true republic. 
 

So what’s the underlying message here? We have to look beneath names and take note of actual practice. I think it can be reasonably argued that both Hitler’s and Stalin’s dictatorships had substantial elements of socialism. 

Here's a good Snopes article that addresses how Nazism was not socialism:

https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/09/05/were-nazis-socialists/

From the Encyclopedia Brittanica: This is a good take on how Hitler took over the Nazi party (it was indeed originally a socialist workers party prior to Hitler), used socialist language to gain support, and then jettisoned all of that once he got power in 1933.

https://www.britannica.com/story/were-the-nazis-socialists

[Nofear]

29 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Not so sure about that.
Speaking of the people and groups of people he encountered Christ always had some choice words for next time you're feeling extra Christlike online.

He did indeed condemn groups and individual bad behaviors (eg hypocrite, wicked, aduterous, etc). But he never insulted them with name-calling (eg poopy-head, jerk, oaf, simpleton, baffoon, etc). But I can see if one doesn't  draw that distinction.

[mfbukowski]

53 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Here's a good Snopes article that addresses how Nazism was not socialism:

https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/09/05/were-nazis-socialists/

From the Encyclopedia Brittanica: This is a good take on how Hitler took over the Nazi party (it was indeed originally a socialist workers party prior to Hitler), used socialist language to gain support, and then jettisoned all of that once he got power in 1933.

https://www.britannica.com/story/were-the-nazis-socialists

Them thar socialists will believe in utopian stuff every time.

We are all gonna cooperate and forget our own self interests, and make a beautiful world.

Never works.  That makes "the experts", if they are or not, royalty.

"He is smart, he can make it go"

Uh huh.

https://youtu.be/KeFoGo3N_4g

Edited December 16, 2021 by mfbukowski

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Here's a good Snopes article that addresses how Nazism was not socialism:

https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/09/05/were-nazis-socialists/

From the Encyclopedia Brittanica: This is a good take on how Hitler took over the Nazi party (it was indeed originally a socialist workers party prior to Hitler), used socialist language to gain support, and then jettisoned all of that once he got power in 1933.

https://www.britannica.com/story/were-the-nazis-socialists

I saw both the Snopes and the Britannica articles before you linked them. I added a link in my post to an Independent article out of the UK. I added it later, so I don’t know if you saw it. It points out that Hitler was a student of Marxism, that if you were to remove the racism from his National Socialism you would end up with something very like Marxism (including, I would add, the oppression and genocide carried out under Stalinism), that whereas Nazism achieves its ends through racial enmity, Marxism achieves its ends through class enmity. 

Clearly there is long-standing and ongoing  disagreement on this subject. I think both sides make reasonable arguments. That’s all I’m saying. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

As you wish. 
 

I won’t engage with ttribe, not even by proxy. 

Your choice.

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I'm saying not even all the words of God would be considered uplifting.  Sometimes they were derogatory and include condoning of violence.

I think intention is what almost always separates our actions from similar actions that God may have done in the past. 

You say something harsh with sincere love in your heart for that person, with complete humility towards your own imperfections and with no beams in your own eyes, willing to die for them if needed, then you can compare your harsh words with the words of the Savior.

But I would guess that the vast majority of people who are derogatory and violent things to someone in the name of defending God--and think that God condones it--are deluded.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

OK. But surely you understand how blatantly self-contradictory it is to say that Christ was not Christlike. 

Sorry I messed with your grammar, semantics, and syntax policing.  

[JLHPROF]

41 minutes ago, Nofear said:

He did indeed condemn groups and individual bad behaviors (eg hypocrite, wicked, aduterous, etc). But he never insulted them with name-calling (eg poopy-head, jerk, oaf, simpleton, baffoon, etc). But I can see if one doesn't  draw that distinction.

You don't think Viper, Pig, Dog, Serpent, Blind Fool, are name-calling?

[JLHPROF]

12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think intention is what almost always separates our actions from similar actions that God may have done in the past. 

You say something harsh with sincere love in your heart for that person, with complete humility towards your own imperfections and with no beams in your own eyes, willing to die for them if needed, then you can compare your harsh words with the words of the Savior.

But I would guess that the vast majority of people who are derogatory and violent things to someone in the name of defending God--and think that God condones it--are deluded.

Well, of course this is true.

Christ has the added legal defense of always speaking "the truth", which as I understand it is the primary legal defense for libel.
When we make libelous comments online they are only occasionally the truth, and more often hyperbole, exaggeration.  IE, Nazi.

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You don't think Viper, Pig, Dog, Serpent, Blind Fool, are name-calling?

What story does the "Dog" name calling belong in?  I'm trying to figure out if you are referring to the one where the gentile woman is asking the Savior for a blessing. 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

@MiserereNobis also had a good reply, comparing the actual name of North Korea to the actual name of the Nazi party, and reminding us that dictators like to use words to make their product sound more palatable, even though the labels are lies. 

What?

But they want all the best for humanity!!

How could they LIE??

 

[JLHPROF]

13 minutes ago, bluebell said:

What story does the "Dog" name calling belong in?  I'm trying to figure out if you are referring to the one where the gentile woman is asking the Savior for a blessing. 

When Christ speaks of giving holy things to dogs and swine, those aren't actual dogs and swine.  He's speaking of non-believers.

That's hardly a lesson we teach to our missionaries before they begin sharing the gospel.  "Here's how to identify the dogs.  Don't bother teaching them."
Imagine if a missionary teaching someone online told a mission president they shouldn't share holy things with someone because they'd be giving them to a dog...

Edited December 16, 2021 by JLHPROF

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Well, of course this is true.

 

But it's true to such an extent that reminding people that Christ also said mean things, in a thread like this about being nicer online, is for all intents and purposes irrelevant.  I feel completely confident in saying that none of the behavior that the handbook is referring to falls under the "just being harsh like Christ" column.  

Quote

Christ has the added legal defense of always speaking "the truth", which as I understand it is the primary legal defense for libel.
When we make libelous comments online they are only occasionally the truth, and more often hyperbole, exaggeration.  IE, Nazi.

But it's not just whether or not what we are saying is true, it's also why we are saying it that determines if we are being Christ-like.  It's also the state of our heart when we are saying it that determines if we are being Christ-like.  It's also our goals when we say it that determine if we are being Christ-like.   It's also what spirit we are listening to and following when we are saying it that determines if we are being Christ-like. 

Until someone actually is able to love their enemies and sincerely pray and serve them that seek to harm them, it is impossible for them to be harsh or derogatory like Christ.  And if they are able to do those things, those are not the people that the handbook is addressing. 

They are so rare that we really don't even need to bring them into the discussion.  They aren't us and their allowances to be harsh don't apply.

 

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

When Christ speaks of giving holy things to dogs and swine, those aren't actual dogs and swine.  He's speaking of non-believers.

That's hardly a lesson we teach to our missionaries before they begin sharing the gospel.  "Here's how to identify the dogs.  Don't bother teaching them."
Imagine if a missionary teaching someone online told a mission president they shouldn't share holy things with someone because they'd be giving them to a dog...

A good example of how something can be interpreted as being harsh when a more accurate understanding shows that it wasn't harsh at all.  I think that a lot of people who are harsh in the name of Christ, are harsh because they don't actually know Christ.  They just know some of His words, taken out of context, and run with the inaccurate interpretation they have created.

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

A good example of how something can be interpreted as being harsh when a more accurate understanding shows that it wasn't harsh at all.  I think that a lot of people who are harsh in the name of Christ, are harsh because they don't actually know Christ.  They just know some of His words, taken out of context, and run with the inaccurate interpretation they have created.

Peter definitely ran with it and he was the senior Apostle.

Edited December 16, 2021 by JLHPROF

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Peter definitely ran with it and he was the senior Apostle.

And he probably needed to repent.  

[Scott Lloyd]

51 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Your choice.

I did engage with Miserere Nobis. A quotation from him was an element of your reply to me. 

[MorningStar]

1 hour ago, BRMC said:

Yep.  That's pretty horrendous, in my opinion.   Doesn't matter if it's a legitimate threat or not.   

Thank you. He's obviously hoping someone else will do the dirty work with encouragement. I came upon that stuff after multiple women reported him for sexual harassment in my choir (long story) and a comment was made that women weren't telling him to go away. I said, "That's because he's one bad day away from going postal and none of us wants to be on his list of people who rejected him." I had unfollowed him (and put him on restricted so he couldn't see my stuff) because it was too painful to watch him call out his parents for refusing contact, but multiple other women were telling me about the disturbed stuff he was posting. I finally went digging and was able to see which groups he belonged to, searched his name in there, and boy my friends weren't kidding when they said it was deeply disturbing. This was right after the Parkland shooting and that guy had posted a simple comment about wanting to be a school shooter, so I realized I needed to contact the FBI. When I talked to the agent, he said, "Oh, you know him?!" Told him the whole story about trying to get him booted from our choir and he said, "Is he even a good singer?" "No." "I'm angry on your behalf!" 😂 I told him multiple people were worried he was going to go postal if he got kicked out and he told me if he even just showed up after, he wanted me to call the police, give them his number, and he would explain everything. 

I know his daughter because I was in her ward and she said his parents washed his hands of him and apologized to the family for whatever they did to make him turn out that way. Very sad. She moved out of the state in order to have some peace. 

[MorningStar]

Here's a milder example of what this guy posts. A friend and I went through a bunch of his posts and reported them all because it was therapeutic and then he came back whining that the "leftist liberal establishment" put him in Facebook jail because he was simply warning others of the dangers of eating Tide Pods. He is such a liar. 😂 

[MorningStar]

During the time some of us women banded together to discuss how we were going to handle the situation if he was given a second chance to harass us, I was asked to change the name of the group, so I changed it to "Women Who Like Music But Don't Like Perverts." Once in a while, one of us will happen upon another one of his gems like on the stake page. What a blessing that he has decided not to go to church for a while, making it a grope-free zone. 

Also, I've learned to avoid people who randomly capitalize words. 

[Calm]

What is his “work” that has him hanging out at Covid infested places.

They call him a rockstar….do they give him a lollipop too?

Wonder if he bothered to check he had a hold of the Iron Rod going up, not down.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Calm

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

ttribe and I don’t get along. I’ve had him on “ignore” for quite a while now and thus won’t be reading his post. I’m interested in your thoughts. 

Of course not. I bet I am on ignore as well.

[MorningStar]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

What is his “work” that has him hanging out at Covid infested places.

They call him a rockstar….do they give him a lollipop too?

He has worked as an EMT, medical assistant, etc. You'll be shocked to learn that he can't hold onto a job even though his genes are superior. 🙄

[Calm]

Just now, MorningStar said:

He has worked as an EMT, medical assistant, etc. You'll be shocked to learn that he can't hold onto a job even though his genes are superior. 🙄

There is something so wrong that this guy is in close proximity to, even touching people when they are at their most vulnerable.  

[MorningStar]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

There is something so wrong that this guy is in close proximity to, even touching people when they are at their most vulnerable.  

Amen. It's very disturbing. A friend of mine discovered his granddaughter was taken to Urgent Care and that guy took her vital signs. My friend was livid.