Various items and thoughts

[rongo]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I can see how that could be sad for some people.  I'm really surprised they aren't broadcasting it to chapels for that reason.

I'm not really surprised, just spoiled.  The Snowflake, Gila Valley, Gilbert, Phoenix, and Tucson temples were all statewide affairs as far as the dedications. But, the only one we were actually in the temple district for was Gilbert at the time. It makes sense that only those in the temple district participate. 

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

Do you know how many people could attend in the old endowment rooms compared to now?  Do we have numbers to make sure it's not just an appearance of being smaller?  

I don't have numbers, just the eyeball test and memory. We had a ward reunion for the ward I was bishop over between 2007 and 2012, and a member of that stake presidency (not in that ward, but came and was welcome) commented unsolicited to me: "Did you see how small the rooms were? More like the Phoenix temple." 

There used to be a veil chapel, where we went to wait for that part (instead of it being in the endowment room). That room was huge --- probably at least 200 seats. The larger endowment rooms held that many (there were two large ones, and several smaller ones, as best I recall). 

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'm not sure why they would reduce the numbers unless they are wanting to spread the load to other temples in the area (I have no idea if there are other temples in the area).  Do we have any reason to believe that they think temple patronage is going to drop off?  

As has been mentioned, there are now more temples to take some of the demand. I don't know that temple patronage is going to go down, per se, but it looks like they may stay with an appointment system with smaller sessions (or maybe using tokens to limit occupancy, like at Oquirrh Mountain and others). Some ward and stake temple nights I've been to wouldn't be close to fitting in the new rooms. 

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'm not sure what a chapel session is so I can't comment on that.  I'm guessing I have never been a part of one.  The one chapel that I've ever been in a temple is the one where patrons wait before the endowment session starts.  Are you saying that the Mesa temple doesn't have a chapel for that purpose anymore?  Where would patrons go to wait?

It seems from discussion here that chapel sessions **might** have been a Mesa Temple special. There used to be a chapel on the left immediately after the recommend desk for chapel sessions (the regular chapel was near the locker rooms). Chapel sessions were special sessions containing only the large party (ward or stake), and began with a service (songs, prayers, and talks) before the endowment session. 

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

This is to be expected.  They are not going to want to have contention in the temple, and there are enough members who have made wearing a mask an ideological issue for the the church to want to tread lightly in a sacred space where confrontation and contention would be a huge mess.

I think it has much more to do with the culture in the conservative areas of Gilbert and Queen Creek than concern that there will be contention. It all seemed natural, just like old times. Other than waiting nearly four months for an endowment appointment in phase 3  

---

We have been told that we are limited to 16 guests for my daughter's own endowment session in late December, but that's in line with the phase 3 system of appointments and occupancy limits. 

[mfbukowski]

13 minutes ago, rongo said:

Nobody has been obnoxious or obstinate at the Gilbert temple. People (who certainly would put them on if asked) simply walk in without one, and from the recommend desk ("Let's check your appointment . . . Here you are! Welcome to the temple!") to the locker room (with the part of the ordinance that happens there), to the chapel, to the endowment room, to the celestial room, etc. --- no one says anything to anybody about it. It's completely normal, in practice, just like church --- wear one if you like, or don't wear one if you don't want one. There's no "fear factor" of someone causing a scene. 

Just got back from Houston sacrament service- no masks.

LA = 100% masks.

"Just like church" can mean lots of things 

[rongo]

3 hours ago, Danzo said:

I just don't really understand.  I personally am a bit vaccine agnostic. I got my own vaccine and booster shot, but I don't particularly care whether other people do  or don't  But I don't see how I could honestly say my religion is against vaccines.  It clearly isn't against vaccines.   Lying to take advantage of the system and get a job is far more damaging than the covid vaccine (or even covid) could be. 

Wouldn't it be better just to tell the truth.? That you don't trust the vaccine, or you are afraid of needles, or whatever the truth is? 

In my opinion, a job that you have to lie to get is not worth it. There is plenty of other work out there.

My son (and his 17 year old brother) both feel strongly that God has told them not to get the Covid vaccine. This has been a matter of prayer, and out of concern that they might be doing the wrong thing. Our senior asked us what we would think/do if he had gotten a "yes" answer, and we told him we would have fully supported his decision and helped him seek out and be vaccinated. We're proud of both of them for living the principle of personal revelation.

The handbook update included language that "ultimately, individuals are responsible to make their own decisions about vaccination. If members have concerns, they should counsel with competent medical professionals and also seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost." In line with the doctrine of agency, this allows for individuals to receive/discern and act on what they receive as personal revelation. 

There was no lying or subterfuge involved. The beliefs are deeply held and sincere --- and the handbook allows for those beliefs. 

ETA: He never claimed that his religion is against vaccines. Upon "cross examination" (follow up questions), he emphasized that he is not against vaccination generally, and that his exemption is about the Covid vaccine specifically. And he didn't get into the weeds of what the institutional church teaches or promotes --- it was strictly on an "individual belief" level, as it should be, in the case of the application. As I told him, when he asked what he should say if his Mormon affiliation came up: "Even heretics have deeply held individual beliefs, and they are their beliefs. What any institutional church teaches is irrelevant if the question is one's deeply held individual beliefs --- which can differ from a catechism or creed." 

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by rongo

[rongo]

7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Just got back from Houston sacrament service- no masks.

LA = 100% masks.

"Just like church" can mean lots of things 

LA (and California at large) is always going to be "etwas anders" compared to the rest of the country.  

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Thanks. I've literally never heard of such a thing. Of course, the vast majority of temples worldwide don't have chapels in them.

Where do patrons go to wait for the session to start if there’s no chapel?

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

don't know that temple patronage is going to go down, per se, but it looks like they may stay with an appointment system with smaller sessions (or maybe using tokens to limit occupancy, like at Oquirrh Mountain and others).

Draper and Oquirrh Mountain were constructed at roughly the same time and are about the same size. At Draper, we have stopped using the tiles post-COVID and have gone strictly to appointments. I assume it’s the same at Oquirrh Mountain. 

I doubt we’ll see the tiles reintroduced. I’m told It is a far more orderly operation with the appointments. 
 

That means no more walk-ins, though. Those are directed to the office where they are assisted in making an appointment, whether it be for a session that is to transpire shortly (if they can be accommodated) or one at a later time or date. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

16 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Where do patrons go to wait for the session to start if there’s no chapel?

The endowment room.

[JustAnAustralian]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Where do patrons go to wait for the session to start if there’s no chapel?

In the immediate lead up, the room itself.

Prior to that, any nearby seating. (Or the change room)

Edited December 8, 2021 by JustAnAustralian

[rongo]

7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Draper and Oquirrh Mountain were constructed at roughly the same time and are about the same size. At Draper, we have stopped using the tiles post-COVID and have gone strictly to appointments. I assume it’s the same at Oquirrh Mountain. 

I doubt we’ll see the tiles reintroduced. I’m told It is a far more orderly operation with the appointments. 

I think that appointments will be a permanent fixture for the foreseeable future. In other words, "phase 3" indefinitely.

What the new room sizes, including in the formerly very large rooms at Mesa, indicate to me is that sessions are going to be capped --- probably through appointment. This is probably to accommodate anticipated staffing issues in coming years as well. I think the days of high turnout ward and stake temple sessions are a thing of the past. 

7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That means no more walk-ins, though. Those are directed to the office where they are assisted in making an appointment, whether it be for a session that is to transpire shortly (if they can be accommodated) or one at a later time or date. 

It also means you can only attend the temple you are assigned to (because appointments are made online using your church account). It is physically impossible to make an appointment for a temple outside of your district. Our son has only been to the temple three times in his life (Provo temple was closed during his MTC, and Covid restrictions hit while he was on his mission). We wanted to take him with us last week when we made our appointment, but his records reside in the Phoenix temple district. 

The exception is when you are on the guest list for an own endowment. That's how we were able to attend the Jordan River temple this summer. But, under "phase 3," you can't just go to a temple you would like to visit. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by rongo

[rchorse]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

It also means you can only attend the temple you are assigned to (because appointments are made online using your church account). It is physically impossible to make an appointment for a temple outside of your district.

I think that was previously true, but not any longer. We were able to make an appointment online at the Ogden temple last week, and we belong to the Bountiful temple district. It's not terribly intuitive how to change temples on the church website, though, so that may be a source of confusion. Either that, or they've changed something.

[Peacefully]

8 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

The endowment room.

Yes, this. When I was an ordinance worker we stopped having patrons go to the chapel and they started going straight to the endowment room. It may have changed back, though. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Peacefully

[bluebell]

11 hours ago, rongo said:

 

I think it has much more to do with the culture in the conservative areas of Gilbert and Queen Creek than concern that there will be contention. It all seemed natural, just like old times. Other than waiting nearly four months for an endowment appointment in phase 3  

---

We have been told that we are limited to 16 guests for my daughter's own endowment session in late December, but that's in line with the phase 3 system of appointments and occupancy limits. 

I have parents who serve in a temple in a very conservative area and everyone wears masked in the temple, no questions asked.  No one wears them at church.  No one ever did.  They didn't even ever social distance, even during the worst of the pandemic. 

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

 

It also means you can only attend the temple you are assigned to (because appointments are made online using your church account). It is physically impossible to make an appointment for a temple outside of your district. Our son has only been to the temple three times in his life (Provo temple was closed during his MTC, and Covid restrictions hit while he was on his mission). We wanted to take him with us last week when we made our appointment, but his records reside in the Phoenix temple district. 

The exception is when you are on the guest list for an own endowment. That's how we were able to attend the Jordan River temple this summer. But, under "phase 3," you can't just go to a temple you would like to visit. 

You can make an appointment at a temple you aren't assigned to here, or at least you could last week.  I haven't checked lately. (I'm in Davis Co, Utah).  Most of the members that i know are going to Logan or Brigham City to do baptisms for the dead right now because that's the only place you can hope to get an appointment that isn't 8+ months out.

Maybe it's different for baptisms?

[bluebell]

44 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

Yes, this. When I was an ordinance worker we stopped having patrons go to the chapel and they started going straight to the endowment room. It may have changed back, though. 

I wonder how the WC is chosen?  Most couples don't enter the room at the same time; it would be hard to know who was there with a spouse.  I'm sure they manage, it just makes me wonder.

[bluebell]

55 minutes ago, rchorse said:

I think that was previously true, but not any longer. We were able to make an appointment online at the Ogden temple last week, and we belong to the Bountiful temple district. It's not terribly intuitive how to change temples on the church website, though, so that may be a source of confusion. Either that, or they've changed something.

I'm in the same district and last time I tried it wasn't a problem to schedule for Ogden. I wonder if something has changed.

[rongo]

1 hour ago, rchorse said:

I think that was previously true, but not any longer. We were able to make an appointment online at the Ogden temple last week, and we belong to the Bountiful temple district. It's not terribly intuitive how to change temples on the church website, though, so that may be a source of confusion. Either that, or they've changed something.

 

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

You can make an appointment at a temple you aren't assigned to here, or at least you could last week.  I haven't checked lately. (I'm in Davis Co, Utah).  Most of the members that i know are going to Logan or Brigham City to do baptisms for the dead right now because that's the only place you can hope to get an appointment that isn't 8+ months out.

Maybe it's different for baptisms?

 

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm in the same district and last time I tried it wasn't a problem to schedule for Ogden. I wonder if something has changed.

It sounds, from what you and rchorse are saying, that this has recently changed. That really makes me happy! 

Baptisms are impossible to schedule for Gilbert (my wife is in the YWP). Pre-Covid, my kids and I waited three hours in the baptistry. There are **a lot** of active LDS youth in the Phoenix Metro area (especially the East Valley). It's a good problem to have, but the youth haven't been able to go for years, and the 11 year-old Beehives (and converts) have never been. We've even done youth baptism trips (pre-Covid) to Tucson (2+ hour drive one way) to be able to do them. 

[mfbukowski]

11 hours ago, rongo said:

LA (and California at large) is always going to be "etwas anders" compared to the rest of the country.  

I hope so. 

______________________________________

But in the sense that I hope that it doesn't spread californication any farther

Rimshot

Edited December 8, 2021 by mfbukowski

[rongo]

17 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I have parents who serve in a temple in a very conservative area and everyone wears masked in the temple, no questions asked.  No one wears them at church.  No one ever did.  They didn't even ever social distance, even during the worst of the pandemic. 

I think it mostly has to do with the temple presidents(cies). If masks are a point of emphasis, then workers will ask/remind people to wear them when they aren't. If masks aren't a point of emphasis, then nobody will talk about it. 

I think Utah was a lot more compliant over the last two years. Many people in the East Valley portion of Phoenix metro haven't really worn masks during this whole thing (neither work, nor stores/restaurants, nor church --- when church was in-person and not online). 

There is probably a wide spectrum of varying mileage and roulette all across North America. 

---

I was surprised when Women's Conference 2022 was preemptively cancelled (tentatively planning on 2023). Not online for a third straight year. Cancelled altogether.

https://www.thechurchnews.com/members/2021-12-03/byu-womens-conference-canceled-spring-2022-235272

This makes me think that we are a long way from General Conference, temple, etc. being back to normal. I wouldn't be surprised if "phase 3" isn't lifted on temples for years, and I think the changes right now that point to small, by-appointment-only sessions might signal how things will be if/when "phase 3" is finally lifted. 

[bluebell]

32 minutes ago, rongo said:

Baptisms are impossible to schedule for Gilbert (my wife is in the YWP). Pre-Covid, my kids and I waited three hours in the baptistry. There are **a lot** of active LDS youth in the Phoenix Metro area (especially the East Valley). It's a good problem to have, but the youth haven't been able to go for years, and the 11 year-old Beehives (and converts) have never been. We've even done youth baptism trips (pre-Covid) to Tucson (2+ hour drive one way) to be able to do them. 

Yes, it was horrible here too.  We once got to the temple at 6 to do baptisms (had an appointment) and didn't even make it to the recommend desk until 9.  We were finally done at 10 (barely) with  each kid getting to do three names.  When we left, there were still youth waiting in the waiting room, outside of the recommend desk.  This was in Bountiful.  Ogden wasn't any better.  We started going to Brigham City.

We rarely made appointments though because each ward's youth only got 1.5 hours worth of appointments for the entire year, which had to be shared between the YM and YW.  It was not a workable system.

Pretty much, the youth were expected to go on their own time, during off hours (early mornings or afternoons), either with friends or with parents.

[bluebell]

24 minutes ago, rongo said:

I think it mostly has to do with the temple presidents(cies). If masks are a point of emphasis, then workers will ask/remind people to wear them when they aren't. If masks aren't a point of emphasis, then nobody will talk about it. 

I think Utah was a lot more compliant over the last two years. Many people in the East Valley portion of Phoenix metro haven't really worn masks during this whole thing (neither work, nor stores/restaurants, nor church --- when church was in-person and not online). 

There is probably a wide spectrum of varying mileage and roulette all across North America. 

---

I'm sure.  My parents serve in a Montana temple.

Quote

 

I was surprised when Women's Conference 2022 was preemptively cancelled (tentatively planning on 2023). Not online for a third straight year. Cancelled altogether.

https://www.thechurchnews.com/members/2021-12-03/byu-womens-conference-canceled-spring-2022-235272

This makes me think that we are a long way from General Conference, temple, etc. being back to normal. I wouldn't be surprised if "phase 3" isn't lifted on temples for years, and I think the changes right now that point to small, by-appointment-only sessions might signal how things will be if/when "phase 3" is finally lifted. 

 

I assumed that the online avenue wasn't working (as in, it wasn't serving the needs of the sisters, not many were signing up, it was too glitchy, etc.) and so they decided it wasn't worth the effort to even do that this year.

I think that church members are very tired of online church stuff.  I wouldn't be surprised if they have very few people watching the talks, even making it free.  

[Duncan]

10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Where do patrons go to wait for the session to start if there’s no chapel?

wait in the change room, wait in the lobby or wait until the session moves out of the room and then they start taking in people. I have always lived in a tiny numerical temple district and so the amount of people in a session has always been small, so people essentially "hanging around" and distracting has never been an issue. In our current temple, due to covid, there are only 10 or so people allowed in so the temple can easily accommodate that many people waiting somewhere

[Chum]

32 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I assumed that the online avenue wasn't working (as in, it wasn't serving the needs of the sisters, not many were signing up, it was too glitchy, etc.) and so they decided it wasn't worth the effort to even do that this year.

I think that church members are very tired of online church stuff.  I wouldn't be surprised if they have very few people watching the talks, even making it free.  

For those of us attending local events online, the challenge can be getting leadership to disclose the streaming links.

Quote

Q posted in ward FB group: "Are they streaming the special Stake session?" A: "Maybe. Maybe not." (note: few local events are in the Church calendar, most are only in the private ward FB group)

me: "Last Sunday, they said they'd send out the streaming links. Any update?" (also posed the same Q to senior missionaries, they tried, no luck)

FB Group Admin: "The link is posted."

me: [Looks in Church calendar, FB group] "Sweet. Where is it posted?"

FBGA via private IM:  "We think it's this one." Sends me a link to a stake event from months ago. It's via the Church portal so it could still work. If it does, It'll be like getting a prize.

It all feels so taboo.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Chum

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, Chum said:

For those of us attending local events online, the challenge can be getting leadership to disclose the streaming links.

It all feels so taboo.

Sometimes we are secretive about the weirdest stuff.  

[Chum]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Sometimes we are secretive about the weirdest stuff.  

That's some physics-level truth there.

[InCognitus]

19 hours ago, rongo said:

2) The endowment rooms in the Mesa temple are **tiny** now --- especially compared to the big ones from before the renovation. Apparently, the plan is to have much smaller sessions, even after "phase 3?" I wonder if the expectation is that temple patronage is going to drop off, so they don't want small crowds in large rooms to stand out as much as they would in large rooms? Why else would the rooms be so small?

I also felt like the endowment rooms are smaller now (I went on the Mesa temple tour twice), but it's possible that I may not remember correctly (I haven't been to an endowment session at the Mesa temple since the Gilbert Temple was dedicated, and historically I have been known to remember rooms to be larger than they actually are).  But I got the idea that the new renovations are restoring the (pre-1975 renovation) four-stage progressive instruction rooms.  If that is true, the room-to-room instruction, coupled with the adjustments to the length of time of the presentation, should allow for more people to go through (I would think).  The unofficial temple site says of the Ordinance Rooms (after the renovation): "Four instruction rooms (four-stage progressive), six sealing rooms, and one baptistry".

19 hours ago, rongo said:

2a) Chapel sessions are apparently a thing of the past as well. The chapel for chapel sessions is gone, now. What was once a spacious temple is now full of narrow hallways and tiny rooms

There is still a chapel, it's just in a different location.  Was there more than one chapel room previously?  (I don't remember that).  I have been to chapel sessions years ago, I just don't remember them being in a different room than the chapel that was off the north-west side of the main hallway (running north and south) at the base of the stairs.  The new chapel is in a different location, although with the way the tour was routed, I have a hard time placing it in how I would get to the new chapel relative to the main entrance. 

Also, the physical size of the temple has not changed, the space is just utilized differently.  The sealing rooms are HUGE now (for example).

Edited December 8, 2021 by InCognitus