Various items and thoughts

[rongo]

1) Mesa Temple rededication is this Sunday, December 12. Only those in that temple district will be participating in the dedication, unlike all other past Arizona temples (which included the whole state, regardless of temple district), which makes sense, but it's a little disappointing --- especially for those who have lived in Arizona for a long time (Mesa was **the** temple, and there are a lot of memories associated with it). 

2) The endowment rooms in the Mesa temple are **tiny** now --- especially compared to the big ones from before the renovation. Apparently, the plan is to have much smaller sessions, even after "phase 3?" I wonder if the expectation is that temple patronage is going to drop off, so they don't want small crowds in large rooms to stand out as much as they would in large rooms? Why else would the rooms be so small?

2a) Chapel sessions are apparently a thing of the past as well. The chapel for chapel sessions is gone, now. What was once a spacious temple is now full of narrow hallways and tiny rooms. 

2b) The baptistry mural and other historic murals were preserved (e.g., Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery preaching to Indians, etc.) which iss great. 

3) At least at the Gilbert temple, mask policies are enforced exactly as at church is in practice, despite the letters that the Church has published. We finally had our "phase 3" endowment appointment we made in August, and wondered if things would be different. Some wore masks, and others didn't, and nobody ever said anything (reminders or requests) to anyone about not having a mask. It is exactly like at church. 

4) Our son received a religious exemption from Covid vaccination at his public university with no problems. The school doesn't require vaccination, but under the auspices of Biden's OSHA rule (which is being shellacked in the courts), they require all campus employees to be vaccinated. It's been interesting to observe the process. He had asked for advice, and I told him to keep it very simple, not mention church affiliation at all, and to keep everything in the realm of personal revelation from God. Students seeking an exemption were initially told to send a statement explaining why they qualify to a dedicated email address. Once that was done, a form reply asked them to re-send it to a different site. This resulted in follow-up questions: what is your religious affiliation, what is your stance on vaccinations in general, if you have religious objections to Covid vaccinations, why did you get an MMR, etc. I told him it was a fishing expedition to get him to deviate from his initial statement and to get political (thus disqualifying claims of pure religious objection): churches' official stances are at odds with objections, inconsistency on vaccines, conspiracy theories, etc.), and to simply say: 1) my religious affiliation is irrelevant to my personal, deeply-held religious belief, 2) I have no objection to vaccinations in general, and 3) God told me through personal revelation not to get this particular vaccine. 

He was informed yesterday that his exemption has been granted. We (correctly) believed that the university does not want the hassle and publicity of insisting that people's personal beliefs are illegitimate or wrong. If the person is consistent, keeps it simple, and doesn't deviate from the simple expression of belief, it will be granted. If it had come to an appeal or they had pushed back, then we would have brought up Title 4 and Title 7 of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (discrimination in employment and education), but we didn't want to get into the weeds of non-religious things while the religious exemption was pending. 

It appears that the process is mainly designed to see who is a) serious about it, b) consistent, and c) willing to respond to redundant requests and questions. We expected there to be some sort of parlay about accommodations, and if asked, his suggestion would have been weekly testing in lieu of vaccination. I told him that if he agreed to be vaccinated if XYZ happened, then that undermines your belief that God told you not to. But, the request was simply granted, unconditionally. 

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 hours ago, rongo said:

Chapel sessions are apparently a thing of the past as well. The chapel for chapel sessions is gone, now. What was once a spacious temple is now full of narrow hallways and tiny rooms. 

I have no clue what a 'chapel session' is.

Quote

It is exactly like at church.

I think a more accurate statement might be that it is like at your church. In the past three months, I have visited three of the six congregations in our stake. In two of the three, every single person age 12 and up was wearing a facemask in harmony with prophetic instruction, and in the third (my own), there are only two or three elderly women who don't.

Quote

I told him that if he agreed to be vaccinated if XYZ happened, then that undermines your belief that God told you not to.

Personal revelations exempting a person from the counsel of the living prophets are a rare treasure. Has your son written his down for posterity?

Edited December 8, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[Canadiandude]

<Looking around the cafeteria>
 

“Hey! Is..that…Rongo??!”

[rchorse]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

3) At least at the Gilbert temple, mask policies are enforced exactly as at church is in practice, despite the letters that the Church has published. We finally had our "phase 3" endowment appointment we made in August, and wondered if things would be different. Some wore masks, and others didn't, and nobody ever said anything (reminders or requests) to anyone about not having a mask. It is exactly like at church.

At the Bountiful and Ogden temples in Utah, everyone was wearing a mask. We forgot them at Ogden, and they reminded us that masks were required. We meant to wear them, but had forgotten, so we didn't push it.

Maybe they would have relented if we had gotten obnoxious, but being obstinate seems to defeat much of the point of temple worship.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

1) Mesa Temple rededication is this Sunday, December 12. Only those in that temple district will be participating in the dedication, unlike all other past Arizona temples (which included the whole state, regardless of temple district), which makes sense, but it's a little disappointing --- especially for those who have lived in Arizona for a long time (Mesa was **the** temple, and there are a lot of memories associated with it). 

 

I can see how that could be sad for some people.  I'm really surprised they aren't broadcasting it to chapels for that reason.

Quote

2) The endowment rooms in the Mesa temple are **tiny** now --- especially compared to the big ones from before the renovation. Apparently, the plan is to have much smaller sessions, even after "phase 3?" I wonder if the expectation is that temple patronage is going to drop off, so they don't want small crowds in large rooms to stand out as much as they would in large rooms? Why else would the rooms be so small?

Do you know how many people could attend in the old endowment rooms compared to now?  Do we have numbers to make sure it's not just an appearance of being smaller?  

I'm not sure why they would reduce the numbers unless they are wanting to spread the load to other temples in the area (I have no idea if there are other temples in the area).  Do we have any reason to believe that they think temple patronage is going to drop off?  

Having read the article on the reno, I'm impressed with the lengths they went to to try to restore everything to the original.  Even looking through old photos to try to get the paint colors right.  Could this change to a smaller size reflect a change back to the original size of the rooms?

It doesn't make sense to me to assume that the church thinks less people will be attending the Mesa temple, unless they know a new temple in the area is going to be syphoning off members.

Quote

2a) Chapel sessions are apparently a thing of the past as well. The chapel for chapel sessions is gone, now. What was once a spacious temple is now full of narrow hallways and tiny rooms. 

I'm not sure what a chapel session is so I can't comment on that.  I'm guessing I have never been a part of one.  The one chapel that I've ever been in a temple is the one where patrons wait before the endowment session starts.  Are you saying that the Mesa temple doesn't have a chapel for that purpose anymore?  Where would patrons go to wait?

Quote

3) At least at the Gilbert temple, mask policies are enforced exactly as at church is in practice, despite the letters that the Church has published. We finally had our "phase 3" endowment appointment we made in August, and wondered if things would be different. Some wore masks, and others didn't, and nobody ever said anything (reminders or requests) to anyone about not having a mask. It is exactly like at church. 

This is to be expected.  They are not going to want to have contention in the temple, and there are enough members who have made wearing a mask an ideological issue for the the church to want to tread lightly in a sacred space where confrontation and contention would be a huge mess.

Quote

 

4) Our son received a religious exemption from Covid vaccination at his public university with no problems. The school doesn't require vaccination, but under the auspices of Biden's OSHA rule (which is being shellacked in the courts), they require all campus employees to be vaccinated. It's been interesting to observe the process. He had asked for advice, and I told him to keep it very simple, not mention church affiliation at all, and to keep everything in the realm of personal revelation from God. Students seeking an exemption were initially told to send a statement explaining why they qualify to a dedicated email address. Once that was done, a form reply asked them to re-send it to a different site. This resulted in follow-up questions: what is your religious affiliation, what is your stance on vaccinations in general, if you have religious objections to Covid vaccinations, why did you get an MMR, etc. I told him it was a fishing expedition to get him to deviate from his initial statement and to get political (thus disqualifying claims of pure religious objection): churches' official stances are at odds with objections, inconsistency on vaccines, conspiracy theories, etc.), and to simply say: 1) my religious affiliation is irrelevant to my personal, deeply-held religious belief, 2) I have no objection to vaccinations in general, and 3) God told me through personal revelation not to get this particular vaccine. 

He was informed yesterday that his exemption has been granted. We (correctly) believed that the university does not want the hassle and publicity of insisting that people's personal beliefs are illegitimate or wrong. If the person is consistent, keeps it simple, and doesn't deviate from the simple expression of belief, it will be granted. If it had come to an appeal or they had pushed back, then we would have brought up Title 4 and Title 7 of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (discrimination in employment and education), but we didn't want to get into the weeds of non-religious things while the religious exemption was pending. 

It appears that the process is mainly designed to see who is a) serious about it, b) consistent, and c) willing to respond to redundant requests and questions. We expected there to be some sort of parlay about accommodations, and if asked, his suggestion would have been weekly testing in lieu of vaccination. I told him that if he agreed to be vaccinated if XYZ happened, then that undermines your belief that God told you not to. But, the request was simply granted, unconditionally. 

 

I can see why the university didn't want to touch your son's response with a ten foot pole.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

 

Personal revelations exempting a person from the counsel of the living prophets are a rare treasure. Has your son written his down for posterity?

In terms of medical issues, I don't know that such exceptions would be that rare.  People can have physical issues that can react with the vaccines and clearly God would be able to advise on that and give specific recommendations to an individual that a church-wide statement from the prophet cannot.  

However, if/when someone believes that they have received an exemption from the spirit that they should not listen to the counsel of a prophet, that is indeed something that should be recorded in a journal.  

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I have no clue what a 'chapel session' is.

It is when the members of a ward or stake meet in the temple chapel. There usually is an opening song, prayer and a few talks.  Afterword, people can attend an endowment session with the ward (or serve in other areas of the temple).

[Danzo]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

Our son received a religious exemption from Covid vaccination at his public university with no problems. The school doesn't require vaccination, but under the auspices of Biden's OSHA rule (which is being shellacked in the courts), they require all campus employees to be vaccinated. It's been interesting to observe the process. He had asked for advice, and I told him to keep it very simple, not mention church affiliation at all, and to keep everything in the realm of personal revelation from God. Students seeking an exemption were initially told to send a statement explaining why they qualify to a dedicated email address. Once that was done, a form reply asked them to re-send it to a different site. This resulted in follow-up questions: what is your religious affiliation, what is your stance on vaccinations in general, if you have religious objections to Covid vaccinations, why did you get an MMR, etc. I told him it was a fishing expedition to get him to deviate from his initial statement and to get political (thus disqualifying claims of pure religious objection): churches' official stances are at odds with objections, inconsistency on vaccines, conspiracy theories, etc.), and to simply say: 1) my religious affiliation is irrelevant to my personal, deeply-held religious belief, 2) I have no objection to vaccinations in general, and 3) God told me through personal revelation not to get this particular vaccine. 

What is your son's religion?

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 minutes ago, Danzo said:

It is when the members of a ward or stake meet in the temple chapel. There usually is an opening song, prayer and a few talks.  Afterword, people can attend an endowment session with the ward (or serve in other areas of the temple).

Thanks. I've literally never heard of such a thing. Of course, the vast majority of temples worldwide don't have chapels in them.

[Hamba Tuhan]

8 minutes ago, Danzo said:

What is your son's religion?

As my formally Hindu first counsellor in the elders quorum presidency once observed, there are 1.35 billion Hindus in the world, meaning there are 1.35 billion different denominations of Hinduism, each with its own doctrine.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[Danzo]

3 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Thanks. I've literally never heard of such a thing. Of course, the vast majority of temples worldwide don't have chapels in them.

I think they stopped doing them here about 5 years ago for some reason, don't know if it was a local decision or a church wide decision.  I always enjoyed them. Usually a member of the stake presidency and a member of the temple presidency spoke.  It was like a sacrament meeting but more focused on the temple ordinances in a way that wasn't available in sacrament meetings.

[Danzo]

1 minute ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

As my formally Hindu first counsellor in the elders quorum presidency once observed, there are 1.35 billion Hindus in the world, meaning there are 1.35 billion different denominations of Hinduism, each with its own doctrine.

I just don't really understand.  I personally am a bit vaccine agnostic. I got my own vaccine and booster shot, but I don't particularly care whether other people do  or don't  But I don't see how I could honestly say my religion is against vaccines.  It clearly isn't against vaccines.   Lying to take advantage of the system and get a job is far more damaging than the covid vaccine (or even covid) could be. 

Wouldn't it be better just to tell the truth.? That you don't trust the vaccine, or you are afraid of needles, or whatever the truth is? 

In my opinion, a job that you have to lie to get is not worth it. There is plenty of other work out there.

[The Nehor]

28 minutes ago, bluebell said:

In terms of medical issues, I don't know that such exceptions would be that rare.  People can have physical issues that can react with the vaccines and clearly God would be able to advise on that and give specific recommendations to an individual that a church-wide statement from the prophet cannot.  

However, if/when someone believes that they have received an exemption from the spirit that they should not listen to the counsel of a prophet, that is indeed something that should be recorded in a journal.  

The only medical reason I have heard consistently for not getting the covid vaccine is an allergy to something in the vaccine. If that is the case ideally get a different one. If you are allergic to something in all of them then do not take them.

These are pretty rare. There are a few doctors telling patients they should not get it for other less credible reasons but they are considered to be off the reservation.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Do you know how many people could attend in the old endowment rooms compared to now?  Do we have numbers to make sure it's not just an appearance of being smaller?  

I just had a quick look at an online photo of a new endowment room: 80 fixed seats, with space for four wheelchairs. So potentially 84 patrons per session, times four endowment rooms.

(I'm struggling to see any of that as 'tiny', but then it's 3.5 times more people than our temple can accommodate!)

This site has historical images of endowment rooms, but it's impossible for me to know if they're complete images. In two of them, I was able to count/extrapolate 92 seats each. So maybe a reduction of eight seats?

Edited December 8, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[Calm]

I wonder if the smaller rooms are so they can have more frequent sessions with less waiting. The bigger the room the longer you have to wait for turnover, even just the time to get everyone into their seats is longer. And If you have quite a few people coming during the day, but not enough to fill up a large room, it makes sense to do smaller ones, because full or mostly empty the ritual takes so long and if you can have 5 partially filled rooms going during the day instead of 3…less waiting. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

I wonder if the smaller rooms are so they can have more frequent sessions with less waiting. The bigger the room the longer you have to wait for turnover, even just the time to get everyone into their seats is longer. And If you have quite a few people coming during the day, but not enough to fill up a large room, it makes sense to do smaller ones, because full or mostly empty the ritual takes so long and if you can have 5 partially filled rooms going during the day instead of 3…less waiting. 

As long as you have the volunteers required to staff the extra sessions. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

I wonder if the smaller rooms are so they can have more frequent sessions with less waiting.

It appears to be the same number of endowment rooms -- four (progressive) -- as it was before the renovation, I think.

[Calm]

Just now, Hamba Tuhan said:

It appears to be the same number of endowment rooms -- four (progressive) -- as it was before the renovation, I think.

Scratch that idea then. 
 

I’d next say heating costs, but you know, Arizona….

[Hamba Tuhan]

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

Scratch that idea then. 

Maybe a bit of space was required for the installation of lifts and/or ramps? I'm not seeing any in a sketch of the original floor plan.

ETA: According to the site I linked to above, 'the 2021 renovation was a wonderful example of how to modernize and restore the temple simultaneously.* The walls of the ordinance rooms had to come down to make room for utilities and fire exits' -- an explanation far less exciting than theorising that the Church is trying to hide a decline in temple usage ...

*Apparently the endowment rooms ceased being progressive in a previous renovation.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

As long as you have the volunteers required to staff the extra sessions. 

As I understand it that is rarely a problem in Utah and Idaho. Elsewhere, yeah. They booted me from working in the temple when I aged out beyond the age I was supposed to have figured out how to get married. Then they upped the age five years…..just as I passed their new threshold. Now they removed the age limits and will let me work in the temple again……and I admit I am not that enthusiastic about making that happen.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I'm not sure why they would reduce the numbers unless they are wanting to spread the load to other temples in the area (I have no idea if there are other temples in the area).  Do we have any reason to believe that they think temple patronage is going to drop off?  

Actually I believe it is designed for MORE patrons!

The endowment presentation has been shortened by eliminating some repetition, and I believe will continue to become more streamlined

Now rooms will only be needed for under an hour per session, and with more rooms, two or more sessions can be held at the same time, making it easier for busy patrons to squeeze a quicker session into their busy lives.

Hey the Millennium is on it's way, and there are tons of spirits waiting to get their work finished! 

 

[mfbukowski]

33 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

(I'm struggling to see any of that as 'tiny', but then it's 3.5 times more people than our temple can accommodate!)

Just FYI, LA tops out at around 150, and I have seen special sessions for singles conferences etc in which folding chairs were put in the aisles, pushing it over 200!

LA has the largest rooms, and I was at the largest session ever in that temple ( per temple president) for a singles conference. That means it was probably the largest single session in church history!

It took FOREVER to finish the Veil!

[mfbukowski]

32 minutes ago, Calm said:

I wonder if the smaller rooms are so they can have more frequent sessions with less waiting. The bigger the room the longer you have to wait for turnover, even just the time to get everyone into their seats is longer. And If you have quite a few people coming during the day, but not enough to fill up a large room, it makes sense to do smaller ones, because full or mostly empty the ritual takes so long and if you can have 5 partially filled rooms going during the day instead of 3…less waiting. 

Yep, that's it. 

And the presentation has cut out some repitition, making it faster 

[ttribe]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Do you know how many people could attend in the old endowment rooms compared to now?  Do we have numbers to make sure it's not just an appearance of being smaller?  

I'm not sure why they would reduce the numbers unless they are wanting to spread the load to other temples in the area (I have no idea if there are other temples in the area).  Do we have any reason to believe that they think temple patronage is going to drop off? 

Just in AZ, alone, the area once served only by the Mesa Temple is served by at least five temples (maybe six?) constructed in the last 20 years.  For a long time, Mesa was the Temple district for much of Northern Mexico, as well.  I think it's safe to say that the Mesa Temple no longer has to handle the same volume it once did.

[rongo]

3 hours ago, rchorse said:

At the Bountiful and Ogden temples in Utah, everyone was wearing a mask. We forgot them at Ogden, and they reminded us that masks were required. We meant to wear them, but had forgotten, so we didn't push it.

Maybe they would have relented if we had gotten obnoxious, but being obstinate seems to defeat much of the point of temple worship.

Nobody has been obnoxious or obstinate at the Gilbert temple. People (who certainly would put them on if asked) simply walk in without one, and from the recommend desk ("Let's check your appointment . . . Here you are! Welcome to the temple!") to the locker room (with the part of the ordinance that happens there), to the chapel, to the endowment room, to the celestial room, etc. --- no one says anything to anybody about it. It's completely normal, in practice, just like church --- wear one if you like, or don't wear one if you don't want one. There's no "fear factor" of someone causing a scene.