Uptick in GenZ / Millennial apostasy?

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I went to Disney land yesterday and I read your typo as "Jedi-Christian" values!

as Charlie Brown might say, "AUGH!!"

But an interesting idea....

Today, maybe more influential than the original .... 

Incidentally, just for Mama and Papa just for tickets, parking, and meals, we are talking in the neighborhood of $500 nowadays!! Now that is a BIG AUGH!

12 pieces of meat on sticks, each 1 cubic inch, barbecued, from a stand, not a restaurant,- go find a place to sit= $25. Had to spend more just to not be hungry after walking 10 miles in circles all day!!

Sounds like ... errrrrrrrr ... fun!   

 

I think, perhaps (not having any children or grandchildren of my own, as I am still [and am likely to remain] my only child    Whaddayagonna do? ) that perhaps it is the kind of "fun" that isn't necessarily "fun" while one is doing it, but, when one looks back on it, one tends, perhaps, to see the better aspects of it that one missed while actually having the experience.  (But, again, no kids, so whaddo I know? ) 

My study-abroad experience in Mexico was like that, as was my trip to Spain: I walked my you-know-what off, and, in the course of the former, got the worst grades of my undergraduate career, and, in each case, after I got home, said to myself, "Boy, am I glad that's over!"  But once I had a chance to catch my breath, then, I looked back, and said, "Man, that was awesome! "

[pogi]

21 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

I see you are trying to associate extreme leftists with a particular political party. 

Yes, that's the idea.

21 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

.  I think it is generally believed that Democrats and Libertarians are on the left side

No.  Libertarians are far right. 

22 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

And a person can lean to the left on some issues while leaning to the right on some other issues

Which would make them more of a centrist and not an extreme leftist.  

 

 

[bOObOO]

5 minutes ago, Chum said:

This is also a fine description of modern r-wing ideologues.

Not this part: "the truth is whatever everyone believes it is as long as nobody disagrees with other people"

In my experience I have seen that most people on the right side believe most of them know the truth and that people who don't agree with them are wrong, ergo not in agreement with most who are on the right side, ergo the truth is not what those who are wrong think it is.

An extreme leftist, on the other hand, believes he knows the truth and what is good and that anyone who disagrees with him is wrong for thinking he does not know the truth or what is good

[Canadiandude]

It looks like as we’re treading into politics. A discussion for a different *forum no?

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by Canadiandude

[Chum]

Withdrawn due to repentance.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Chum

[Chum]

Just now, Canadiandude said:

It looks like as we’re treading into politics. A discussion for a different thread no?

Oops. You're right. Repenting.

[bOObOO]

8 minutes ago, pogi said:

No.  Libertarians are far right.

Ah, okay, yes.  I had them confused with Liberals at the moment I wrote that.  I don't usually think much of either of them.

8 minutes ago, pogi said:

Which would make them more of a centrist and not an extreme leftist.  

Extreme left on some issues and extreme right on some other issues.  If you want to call that combo a Centrist that is your prerogative.

 

My main point is that leftists are less inclined to think in terms of one overarching "correct" side and more in terms of whatever each person likes is okay and nobody should think it is wrong unless what some people like is to actually hurt other people.

In my perspective I see a "correct" side and that everyone who is not correct on anything is just wrong even if they think they are correct.  It's difficult to put this kind of thing into words, I think.

[Canadiandude]

GenZ and Millennials are apparently leaving the church in large numbers.

-or they aren’t and people are just exaggerating the phenomenon.

That’s been the debate so far, as well as why exactly this is (or isn’t) the case.

I see it as but a re-emergence of a pattern, where every few decades (in times of great, societal upheaval) younger church members attempt to change (internally or externally) the church to better reflect contemporary values, beliefs , & understandings. 

I’m a lil less hopeful today tho than I was a few days ago at such a prospect however.

As a millennial, I expect I’ll likely be in my eighties before any major change happens that’s on par with the ordinance ban change. 

Edited September 29, 2021 by Canadiandude
Changed a few words pardon

[bOObOO]

2 minutes ago, Canadiandude said:

GenZ and Millennials are apparently leaving the church in large numbers.

-or they aren’t and people are just exaggerating the phenomenon.

That’s been the debate so far, as well as why exactly this is (or isn’t) the case.

I see it as but a re-emergence of a pattern, where every few decades (and alongside great societal upheaval) younger church members attempt to change (internally or externally) the church to reflect contemporary values, beliefs and understandings. 

I’m a lil less hopeful today tho than I was a few days ago at the prospect however.

As a millennial, I expect I’ll  be in my eighties before any major change happens that’s on par with the ordinance ban change. 

I'm from the baby boomer generation and I think the Church is just fine with no need for the younger church members to attempt to change the church to reflect contemporary values, beliefs and understandings when those changes would not be good.

I think the Church is already as LGBTQ friendly as it needs to be.  We just need to be nice to everybody, whether LGBTQ or not, and the Church has been teaching for decades that we should be nice and kind to everybody.  Even sinners.  Even our enemies.

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/28/2021 at 11:01 AM, Navidad said:

Perhaps I could add another perspective to the conversation? Methinks that for every person who leaves the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, there are perhaps forty who look into it and never join. That is an arbitrary number, not the result of any particular data. I know those who leave, cause more pain and consternation for the faithful. However I wonder if the faithful wonder and are concerned about those who never join in the first place? It seems that if the church is to recapture its ROROG (rate of rate of growth), it must look into what about it makes people never join in the first place. I can comment, but only anecdotally about my thoughts about those who leave. But I would have much more to say about why folks don't join in the first place. Are there studies within the church missions effort about why adults "investigate" (I don't really like that word) and then move on? I think that would be quite interesting and challenging a discussion.

The Parable of the Sower comes to mind.

Another question would be, “how many people look into any other religion and decide not to join it?” I can’t believe it is a unique problem for our Church. I watch several televangelists, but I don’t send in my Love Offerings. 

Edited September 29, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

12 minutes ago, Canadiandude said:

GenZ and Millennials are apparently leaving the church in large numbers.

-or they aren’t and people are just exaggerating the phenomenon.

That’s been the debate so far, as well as why exactly this is (or isn’t) the case.

I see it as but a re-emergence of a pattern, where every few decades (in times of great, societal upheaval) younger church members attempt to change (internally or externally) the church to better reflect contemporary values, beliefs , & understandings. 

I’m a lil less hopeful today tho than I was a few days ago at such a prospect however.

As a millennial, I expect I’ll likely be in my eighties before any major change happens that’s on par with the ordinance ban change. 

I’m almost 80 and I’ve seen a few things come and go.

[pogi]

33 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

My main point is that leftists are less inclined to think in terms of one overarching "correct" side and more in terms of whatever each person likes is okay and nobody should think it is wrong unless what some people like is to actually hurt other people.

I don't think you are describing the extreme left.  I don't think Rivers is either - I think Rivers sees most people on the left as "extreme left".   I disagree.  I think extreme left people are just as intolerant as the extreme right.  They both think in terms of one overarching "correct" side.   They are both ideologically oppressive.  Ironically, they are more alike than dissimilar in many ways. 

Edited September 29, 2021 by pogi

[Canadiandude]

5 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

I'm from the baby boomer generation and I think the Church is just fine with no need for the younger church members to attempt to change the church to reflect contemporary values, beliefs and understandings when those changes would not be good.

I think the Church is already as LGBTQ friendly as it needs to be.  We just need to be nice to everybody, whether LGBTQ or not, and the Church has been teaching for decades that we should be nice and kind to everybody.  Even sinners.  Even our enemies.

Which I guess just emphasizes why folks & folx of my age/group might be leaving. 😜😅

No offence.

[bOObOO]

16 minutes ago, pogi said:

I don't think you are describing the extreme left.  I don't think Rivers is either - I think Rivers sees most people on the left as "extreme left".   I disagree.  I think extreme left people are just as intolerant as the extreme right.  They both think in terms of one overarching "correct" side.   They are both ideologically oppressive.  Ironically, they are more alike than dissimilar in many ways. 

Yes, even good and evil have a lot in common.  Both are simply opposites.  One is right and the other is wrong.  What is correctly right is right for everybody though even though some people may not think it is correct and could be violently opposed to it.

Take any sin, for example.  It isn't ever good in any situation and yet some people sometimes think a sin is good.  Maybe because they really like that sin. Maybe because they don't know any better.  And some will never admit a sin is a bad thing.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

I’m almost 80 and I’ve seen a few things come and go.

Well, I hope you'll be wailin' on that fiddle for quite some time, yet.  You and Charlie Daniels!   

[Bernard Gui]

3 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Well, I hope you'll be wailin' on that fiddle for quite some time, yet.  You and Charlie Daniels!   

Me too! 

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

With due respect, you may take that approach with friends and family, but not on this board, you don't, it would seem.

You have no respect for me.  And this board is not my family.  It is after all a DISCUSSSION BOARD.  Besides who made you board nanny?

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

You have no respect for me.  And this board is not my family.  It is after all a DISCUSSSION BOARD.  Besides who made you board nanny?

We disagree fundamentally on a lot of things, yes.  And I am saddened by the transformation I have witnessed in you on line over the years, yes.  But neither one of those things standing alone nor both of them standing together are indicative of a lack of respect for you.  There are plenty of people on this board with whom I disagree, but  whom, nonetheless, I respect tremendously.  But it's not simply the change in your attitude toward the Church of Jesus Christ that saddens me so much as it is the fact that you refuse to adopt more of a live-and-let-live attitude toward the members of your former faith (speaking in terms of the faith that it seems undeniable that you have lost, whether or not you take the step of resigning from the Church of Jesus Christ or not). 

While, undeniably, it's true that no one on this board is your family, whether those who post here are your family or not, it seems to me that, nonetheless,  they are deserving of at least a minimum of respect (or, if not respect, at least civility) that, often, you decline to extend to them, ostensibly, I suppose, because they are Internet strangers, so, the thinking might go, why should you worry about how you treat them?  Perhaps you should worry about how you treat them for the same reason that you treat strangers in public with at least a minimum of respect, or at least with civility.

I can think of at least one poster (who, out of respect for him or her, I will not name) who likely feels much the same way you do about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but who does not display the vitriol that you do against members of his or her former faith (again, speaking of the faith you have lost regardless what your current status in the institution of the Church of Jesus Christ is).

In sum, it is absolutely apparent and crystal clear that you disagree with many here, as is your right.  This is, as you say, a discussion board.  I suppose my only question is why you feel you must disagree so disagreeably.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Kenngo1969

[Snodgrassian]

My anecdotal evidence is, out of the 6 young men I grew up with, only one I think is still active. Not sure about the young women.

The wards in my current area are not growing, due to converts, mainly new move ins due to military and public sector jobs. The only baptisms that I can think of are a few middle-aged men and one young woman who was best friends with a member. The significant portion of gen xers in this area are not your typical mormons, by appearance, and their social circle is diminishing year over year. Not sure if that is due to people moving or ending their church attendance. 

 

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I’m almost 80 and I’ve seen a few things come and go.

 

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Well, I hope you'll be wailin' on that fiddle for quite some time, yet.  You and Charlie Daniels!   

 

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Me too! 

The only question left, then, is how and when, exactly, am I going to make my way out to the bucolic Bluegrass Hills of Lovely Kentucky to watch you and hear you play?  

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

I don't think you are describing the extreme left.  I don't think Rivers is either - I think Rivers sees most people on the left as "extreme left".   I disagree.  I think extreme left people are just as intolerant as the extreme right.  They both think in terms of one overarching "correct" side.   They are both ideologically oppressive.  Ironically, they are more alike than dissimilar in many ways. 

The main issue is that the extremists on both sides of the spectrum tend to be authoritarians. Of course their rhetoric usually tries to hide this truth.

Unfortunately a fair number of people have decided that anyone left of Ronald Reagan is secretly Stalin. The extremists have always used the opposing extremists as a handy tool to justify authoritarianism. Hitler took over because better the Nazis than the communists despite the communists having little in terms of either numbers or power.

Well, it was a noble experiment anyways. I will be sad to see it end.

 

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

 

 

The only question left, then, is how and when, exactly, am I going to make my way out to the bucolic Bluegrass Hills of Lovely Kentucky to watch you and hear you play?  

I’ve got to get some gigs first. You will be the first to know. Look up Stringbean Memorial Bluegrass Festival. Phil Akemon, the founder, is a member of the McKee Branch. I was blessed with a night of jamming with him and some friends. It was awesome. Maybe we can meet up at next year’s Festival. We’ll have a guest room in the house.😋. https://www.stringbeanpark.com

Edited September 30, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Sounds like ... errrrrrrrr ... fun!   

 

I think, perhaps (not having any children or grandchildren of my own, as I am still [and am likely to remain] my only child    Whaddayagonna do? ) that perhaps it is the kind of "fun" that isn't necessarily "fun" while one is doing it, but, when one looks back on it, one tends, perhaps, to see the better aspects of it that one missed while actually having the experience.  (But, again, no kids, so whaddo I know? ) 

My study-abroad experience in Mexico was like that, as was my trip to Spain: I walked my you-know-what off, and, in the course of the former, got the worst grades of my undergraduate career, and, in each case, after I got home, said to myself, "Boy, am I glad that's over!"  But once I had a chance to catch my breath, then, I looked back, and said, "Man, that was awesome! "

This was actually a trial run for the grandkids.... and Lego land is looking pretty good right now.

And the new rides? 10 minutes of an action clip while they shake you up like ice in your.... Pepsi ! 

They have electric wheel chairs to rent in the "handicapped" parking area to make it easier...BUT THE HANDICAPPED PARKING IS about 1 MILE from the entrance with NO RUNNING BUSSES to the entrance.

There is another lot farther away,with open shuttles because of covid for non-handicapped.

I AM SERIOUS!! 

If you can figure that one out, let me know.

"Happiest place on earth "

Uh huh.

No profanity here.

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Snodgrassian said:

My anecdotal evidence is, out of the 6 young men I grew up with, only one I think is still active. Not sure about the young women.

The wards in my current area are not growing, due to converts, mainly new move ins due to military and public sector jobs. The only baptisms that I can think of are a few middle-aged men and one young woman who was best friends with a member. The significant portion of gen xers in this area are not your typical mormons, by appearance, and their social circle is diminishing year over year. Not sure if that is due to people moving or ending their church attendance. 

 

We should neither be surprised nor dismayed. There is much precedent for this in the Book of Mormon. Tree of Life Vision, Parable of the Vineyard, repeated apostasy during prosperity, dwindling membership during wicked times, false teachers, secret combinations, children rejecting parental teaching, persecution of the righteous, rise of secularism and tyranny, prophetic descriptions of the small numbers of the righteous, mass destruction before the Lord’s appearance, etc.  It’s all in the Book.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[Navidad]

7 hours ago, bOObOO said:

My main point is that leftists are less inclined to think in terms of one overarching "correct" side and more in terms of whatever each person likes is okay

Methinks you haven't had any disagreements with hard core leftists lately. For them the idea of tolerance is no longer enough. That is a broad generalization on my part, but I believe it to be accurate.