Uptick in GenZ / Millennial apostasy?

[CV75]

33 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I am in a very good place, actually.  However, I do not consider this board to be a safe place to discuss my journey, so I choose not to beyond the minimal details.  As far as I can tell, all I've really said in this thread is that I don't go trying to get people out of the church.  I would have been happy to leave my one post to stand alone.

I'm not asking about the journey, and I'm not suggesting the only path to your current destination is to leave the Church. But even it it is and you don't want to discuss that, what is wonderful enough to share with others, that we should find uniquely desirable also, from your current destination?

[ttribe]

Just now, CV75 said:

I'm not asking about the journey, and I'm not suggesting the only path to your current destination is to leave the Church. But even it it is and you don't want to discuss that, what is wonderful enough to share with others, that we should find uniquely desirable also, from your current destination?

Honestly, I don't really care what you think of my current destination.  I don't say that to be snarky, I just really don't care.  A sentiment was passed along from a believer about him hearing it said by ex-members that they don't go seeking to get others out because it was a painful process.  I simply chimed in to express agreement with that sentiment.  I no longer feel some deep abiding drive to get people to live their lives like mine (every ex-member a missionary for leaving isn't a thing).  I have had a number of friends express that they see how happy I am in my current situation.  That's enough for me.  If they see that becoming an ex-member doesn't result in being "turned over to the buffetings of Satan" and that I'm not miserable the way they thought I would be, that's up to them.  I am happy to live my life and let others do the same.

[bOObOO]

48 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I'm not asking about the journey, and I'm not suggesting the only path to your current destination is to leave the Church. But even it it is and you don't want to discuss that, what is wonderful enough to share with others, that we should find uniquely desirable also, from your current destination?

What if he just likes his current situation, how he feels about where he is now spiritually, better than he liked how he felt spiritually as a member of our Church?  What if what he has now is what he would consider the celestial level experience, spiritually, even though others might not and probably would not agree, thinking it was inferior to what they feel they have?  You and I both know there are going to be people with various degrees of glory in various levels of heaven, so what if each feels his own place in heaven is the best place, at least in their own perspective?  I know I don't want to leave the Church for something else, some other option, whatever is behind whatever door number it is on something like a Let's Make A Deal show.  And I don't even care to see what is behind some other door.  I am dead set locked in to whatever awaits me as I stick with the Church to the end of this deal.  Bring on the Final Judgment.  I'm ready right now.  Until then I'll just be enjoying the ride and waiting for all of this to be over.

[ttribe]

28 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

What if he just likes his current situation, how he feels about where he is now spiritually, better than he liked how he felt spiritually as a member of our Church?  What if what he has now is what he would consider the celestial level experience, spiritually, even though others might not and probably would not agree, thinking it was inferior to what they feel they have?  You and I both know there are going to be people with various degrees of glory in various levels of heaven, so what if each feels his own place in heaven is the best place, at least in their own perspective?  I know I don't want to leave the Church for something else, some other option, whatever is behind whatever door number it is on something like a Let's Make A Deal show.  And I don't even care to see what is behind some other door.  I am dead set locked in to whatever awaits me as I stick with the Church to the end of this deal.  Bring on the Final Judgment.  I'm ready right now.  Until then I'll just be enjoying the ride and waiting for all of this to be over.

Yeah...that's it...I just didn't want to live the alleged 'Celestial Law' and be as righteous and holy as you.  You can pretty much bet I take the posts you put up under your latest persona as seriously as I did the ones you made under all of your other names; which is to say, not at all.

[Canadiandude]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

Yes, that goes without saying -- as in Lehi's dream, if you have something wonderful, you would typically want to share. Likewise, if you are searching, you will be open to discovery (which he did earlier). The request (search) and acceptance (discovery) have a corresponding reply and offer, or, the reverse, the invitation and offer meet a corresponding search  and acceptance, There is no persuasion involved (why equate giving with persuasion?).

I'm not refuting anything or making a point (why take it that way?); I have 2 simple questions:

(1) Why not introduce the concept of leaving to others?

(2) What is the non-rational counterpart [to belief in the supernatural; I suggested pure love as with Lehi, but it could be any number of things] for your sharing (or not) your key to success in what you consider "ethical living and purpose in life"?

Ok. I think I understand better now.

I don’t encourage people to leave the church for the same reason I don’t try to force people from the closet in terms of gender identity or sexual orientation. 
 

It’s important to critically examine the church’s truth claims and consequences of these claims & policies, but not everyone is ready to take the same leap as I did to leave or deconstruct their beliefs. That’s okay. 
 

As for key to success, I guess seeing the bigger picture, and trying to understand what’s crucial for society as a whole, and what the proper balance is between individual liberty and societal responsibility. 

I think that there’s a lot going for the principals of methodological naturalism, where we examine ethics & society with the assumption that the spiritual may or may not be real. 

 

[Canadiandude]

2 hours ago, ttribe said:

I am in a very good place, actually.  However, I do not consider this board to be a safe place to discuss my journey, so I choose not to beyond the minimal details.  As far as I can tell, all I've really said in this thread is that I don't go trying to get people out of the church.  I would have been happy to leave my one post to stand alone.

Which is fair honestly. I don’t consider this board a safe enough place to be frank with all the issues & hell (to be frank ) that the church and its culture has cost me and many others around me.

 

Suffice to say though, if a good portion of my age category are dissatisfied with current church doctrine or policies, that’s understandable. 

[truth a la carte]

Our family recently left the church and the change has been an overall net positive. I left primarily because I disagree with the church’s LGBTQ posture, but it would be a tremendous oversimplification to think that was everything for our entire family. My husband and I are Gen X and we have teenagers at home.
 

Our departure seemed to most to have come out of nowhere, as we had been very active and believing members, and my husband and I had held many leadership positions between the two of us (RS Pres, EQ Pres, etc).
 

If folks are interested in the typical reasons that once-active people leave, John Dehlin did a study on this several years ago and it’s available online (http://www.whymormonsquestion.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Survey-Results_Understanding-Mormon-Disbelief-Mar20121.pdf). The findings track well with what I’ve seen and experienced. 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, ttribe said:

Honestly, I don't really care what you think of my current destination.  I don't say that to be snarky, I just really don't care.  A sentiment was passed along from a believer about him hearing it said by ex-members that they don't go seeking to get others out because it was a painful process.  I simply chimed in to express agreement with that sentiment.  I no longer feel some deep abiding drive to get people to live their lives like mine (every ex-member a missionary for leaving isn't a thing).  I have had a number of friends express that they see how happy I am in my current situation.  That's enough for me.  If they see that becoming an ex-member doesn't result in being "turned over to the buffetings of Satan" and that I'm not miserable the way they thought I would be, that's up to them.  I am happy to live my life and let others do the same.

I'm not sharing what I think of your current destination. I don't care what you say other people say about it. I'm asking you what is wonderful enough about it to share, that would make it uniquely desirable.

Every time I ask a question to understand, you seem to take it as an indictment of whatever it is you haven't told me and what i can't possibly know without telling me.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, bOObOO said:

What if he just likes his current situation, how he feels about where he is now spiritually, better than he liked how he felt spiritually as a member of our Church?  What if what he has now is what he would consider the celestial level experience, spiritually, even though others might not and probably would not agree, thinking it was inferior to what they feel they have?  You and I both know there are going to be people with various degrees of glory in various levels of heaven, so what if each feels his own place in heaven is the best place, at least in their own perspective?  I know I don't want to leave the Church for something else, some other option, whatever is behind whatever door number it is on something like a Let's Make A Deal show.  And I don't even care to see what is behind some other door.  I am dead set locked in to whatever awaits me as I stick with the Church to the end of this deal.  Bring on the Final Judgment.  I'm ready right now.  Until then I'll just be enjoying the ride and waiting for all of this to be over.

That's not answering my question at all, and certainly not his answer.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, ttribe said:

Honestly, I don't really care what you think of my current destination.  I don't say that to be snarky, I just really don't care.  A sentiment was passed along from a believer about him hearing it said by ex-members that they don't go seeking to get others out because it was a painful process.  I simply chimed in to express agreement with that sentiment.  I no longer feel some deep abiding drive to get people to live their lives like mine (every ex-member a missionary for leaving isn't a thing).  I have had a number of friends express that they see how happy I am in my current situation.  That's enough for me.  If they see that becoming an ex-member doesn't result in being "turned over to the buffetings of Satan" and that I'm not miserable the way they thought I would be, that's up to them.  I am happy to live my life and let others do the same.

I'm not sharing what I think of your current destination. I don't care what you say other people say about it. I'm asking you what is wonderful enough about it to share with others, that would make it uniquely desirable also?

[CV75]

43 minutes ago, Canadiandude said:

Ok. I think I understand better now.

I don’t encourage people to leave the church for the same reason I don’t try to force people from the closet in terms of gender identity or sexual orientation. 
 

It’s important to critically examine the church’s truth claims and consequences of these claims & policies, but not everyone is ready to take the same leap as I did to leave or deconstruct their beliefs. That’s okay. 
 

As for key to success, I guess seeing the bigger picture, and trying to understand what’s crucial for society as a whole, and what the proper balance is between individual liberty and societal responsibility. 

I think that there’s a lot going for the principals of methodological naturalism, where we examine ethics & society with the assumption that the spiritual may or may not be real. 

 

Encourage and force are two different things, and I’m not seeing a non-rational component to your process, which science has proven to be the primary driving force in all we do and rationalize. Spirituality is only one non-rational process and experience, and all of them affect critical examination. The non-rational a rational processes ideally integrate with and complement each other. Critical examination doesn't have to result in the deconstruction of belief or the same conclusions that you have made.

[Canadiandude]

3 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Encourage and force are two different things, and I’m not seeing a non-rational component to your process, which science has proven to be the primary driving force in all we do and rationalize. Spirituality is only one non-rational process and experience, and all of them affect critical examination. The non-rational a rational processes ideally integrate with and complement each other. Critical examination doesn't have to result in the deconstruction of belief or the same conclusions that you have made.

I’m not seeing your point.

Nor need I concede to your ontology.

Have a great night, I’m grabbing a beer.

[Tacenda]

32 minutes ago, truth a la carte said:

Our family recently left the church and the change has been an overall net positive. I left primarily because I disagree with the church’s LGBTQ posture, but it would be a tremendous oversimplification to think that was everything for our entire family. My husband and I are Gen X and we have teenagers at home.
 

Our departure seemed to most to have come out of nowhere, as we had been very active and believing members, and my husband and I had held many leadership positions between the two of us (RS Pres, EQ Pres, etc).
 

If folks are interested in the typical reasons that once-active people leave, John Dehlin did a study on this several years ago and it’s available online (http://www.whymormonsquestion.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Survey-Results_Understanding-Mormon-Disbelief-Mar20121.pdf). The findings track well with what I’ve seen and experienced. 

Welcome, we need more women on the board.  Or maybe you aren't new to the board. Welcome back, haha!

[Canadiandude]

39 minutes ago, truth a la carte said:

Our family recently left the church and the change has been an overall net positive. I left primarily because I disagree with the church’s LGBTQ posture, but it would be a tremendous oversimplification to think that was everything for our entire family. My husband and I are Gen X and we have teenagers at home.
 

Our departure seemed to most to have come out of nowhere, as we had been very active and believing members, and my husband and I had held many leadership positions between the two of us (RS Pres, EQ Pres, etc).
 

If folks are interested in the typical reasons that once-active people leave, John Dehlin did a study on this several years ago and it’s available online (http://www.whymormonsquestion.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Survey-Results_Understanding-Mormon-Disbelief-Mar20121.pdf). The findings track well with what I’ve seen and experienced. 

Thanks for standing up for folx like me. 2SLGBTQ+ dude here. We need more like ya. 

[bOObOO]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

I'm not sharing what I think of your current destination. I don't care what you say other people say about it. I'm asking you what is wonderful enough about it to share, that would make it uniquely desirable.

Every time I ask a question to understand, you seem to take it as an indictment of whatever it is you haven't told me and what i can't possibly know without telling me.

That it offers what he likes, which other people would also like if they like what he likes.  Why would it need to be uniquely desirable?  None of us are going where we are going alone.  We will all have others with us or near us who also like what we like.

[truth a la carte]

Thanks Tacenda and Canadiandude. I’ve posted a few times before but that was probably two years ago. I probably won’t be a particularly frequent poster but I do lurk on occasion

[CV75]

10 hours ago, Canadiandude said:

I’m not seeing your point.

Nor need I concede to your ontology.

Have a great night, I’m grabbing a beer.

Are you saying a) that non-rational processes are metaphysical, or b) that they have no functional relationship to rational cognition? If the word "spirituality" gives you heartburn, replace it with the idea of having a concern for non-materialistic aspects of your relationships, values, and life purpose/meaning.

Why do you equate encouragement with force?

Why is deconstructing belief the only consequence of critical examination?

How can you reject a point do not see? That seems to be an irrationally based reaction.

 

[CV75]

5 hours ago, bOObOO said:

That it offers what he likes, which other people would also like if they like what he likes.  Why would it need to be uniquely desirable?  None of us are going where we are going alone.  We will all have others with us or near us who also like what we like.

I am happy you can read his mind.

[gopher]

I don't understand why everyone makes it so difficult for themselves to leave the church.  If you no longer believe in God, tell everyone God never spoke to you telling you the church is true.  If you still believe in God, tell everyone God spoke to you and told you it was all false.  Who can argue with that?  Why spend countless hours, days, years studying every argument that has been made against the church?  Runnells once claimed he had over 9,000 pages of information he collected against the church.  Why?  All you are doing is convincing the truly converted believers that you lack the faith to believe.   None of that stuff changes their belief that God has spoken to them confirming the restored Gospel is true.  Plus, believers accept that answers aren't available for every argument presented by critics and non-believers now, but everything will be revealed eventually.  So you will always get pushback from believers when you start listing historical, social, scientific, etc issues for no longer believing.

It really doesn't need to be this difficult, IMO.

[rongo]

13 hours ago, CV75 said:

I don't care what you say other people say about it. I'm asking you what is wonderful enough about it to share, that would make it uniquely desirable. Every time I ask a question to understand, you seem to take it as an indictment of whatever it is you haven't told me and what i can't possibly know without telling me.

 

13 hours ago, CV75 said:

That's not answering my question at all . . . 

13 hours ago, CV75 said:

Every time I ask a question to understand, you seem to take it as an indictment of whatever it is you haven't told me and what i can't possibly know without telling me.

 

I don't get why you're browbeating and goading @ttribe, seemingly punching away at "if leaving the Church is so good, why aren't you militantly evangelistic about it?" 

It's weird, CV. When people have friends and family on both sides of the divide, I can't think of anything more boorish and obnoxious than someone (on either side) who acts as you seemingly insist he should be acting. 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, gopher said:

I don't understand why everyone makes it so difficult for themselves to leave the church.  If you no longer believe in God, tell everyone God never spoke to you telling you the church is true.  If you still believe in God, tell everyone God spoke to you and told you it was all false.  Who can argue with that?  Why spend countless hours, days, years studying every argument that has been made against the church?  Runnells once claimed he had over 9,000 pages of information he collected against the church.  Why?  All you are doing is convincing the truly converted believers that you lack the faith to believe.   None of that stuff changes their belief that God has spoken to them confirming the restored Gospel is true.  Plus, believers accept that answers aren't available for every argument presented by critics and non-believers now, but everything will be revealed eventually.  So you will always get pushback from believers when you start listing historical, social, scientific, etc issues for no longer believing.

It really doesn't need to be this difficult, IMO.

https://religionnews.com/2019/07/02/why-cant-ex-mormons-just-leave-the-lds-church-alone/ Read the article, and find out. 

“You can take the person out of Mormonism, but you can’t take the Mormonism out of the person.”

 

[rongo]

2 hours ago, gopher said:

I don't understand why everyone makes it so difficult for themselves to leave the church.  If you no longer believe in God, tell everyone God never spoke to you telling you the church is true.  If you still believe in God, tell everyone God spoke to you and told you it was all false.  Who can argue with that?  Why spend countless hours, days, years studying every argument that has been made against the church?  Runnells once claimed he had over 9,000 pages of information he collected against the church.  Why?  All you are doing is convincing the truly converted believers that you lack the faith to believe.   None of that stuff changes their belief that God has spoken to them confirming the restored Gospel is true.  Plus, believers accept that answers aren't available for every argument presented by critics and non-believers now, but everything will be revealed eventually.  So you will always get pushback from believers when you start listing historical, social, scientific, etc issues for no longer believing.

It really doesn't need to be this difficult, IMO.

It's pretty simple, really. Most people who leave don't wage a crusade against the Church. They quietly go on with their lives. The vocal ones get the attention and give the appearance of this rabid apostate stereotype.

That type of person want to inflict as much pain on the Church as possible. Some may be trying to justify their decision to themselves, and others simply hate the Church and want to twist the knife as much as possible. 

Most who leave aren't this type, though, and most still have believing friends and family they continue relationships with. 

[gopher]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

https://religionnews.com/2019/07/02/why-cant-ex-mormons-just-leave-the-lds-church-alone/ Read the article, and find out. 

“You can take the person out of Mormonism, but you can’t take the Mormonism out of the person.”

 

Not really relevant.  That quote wasn't attributed to former members, but to current believing members.  The article didn't address my question.

[gopher]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

It's pretty simple, really. Most people who leave don't wage a crusade against the Church. They quietly go on with their lives. The vocal ones get the attention and give the appearance of this rabid apostate stereotype.

That type of person want to inflict as much pain on the Church as possible. Some may be trying to justify their decision to themselves, and others simply hate the Church and want to twist the knife as much as possible. 

Most who leave aren't this type, though, and most still have believing friends and family they continue relationships with. 

I was addressing those that talk about the great pains they experienced as they left the church.  Much of the pain is caused by dealing with family and friends who disagree or disapprove of their decision, correct?  My point was that I think it's a mistake to say you are leaving because of issues that are open for debate.  You are a smart guy.  If someone says they are leaving because of the priesthood ban, polygamy,  inconsistencies in church history, homosexuality, or any of the other reasons often given, you can provide arguments to counter them.  But if they say God told them it isn't true, how can you argue that?  You believe because God has confirmed it is true to you, right?  I'm not blaming members leaving for the causing the pain they experience, but offering a suggestion that may make it easier to move on.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, rongo said:

 

I don't get why you're browbeating and goading @ttribe, seemingly punching away at "if leaving the Church is so good, why aren't you militantly evangelistic about it?" 

It's weird, CV. When people have friends and family on both sides of the divide, I can't think of anything more boorish and obnoxious than someone (on either side) who acts as you seemingly insist he should be acting. 

I understand it may come across that way (bias). I ask in different ways to try and get around that bias to bridge whatever divide you're referring to that prevents the question from being understood and answered directly.

"Since you have found something good, why not share it?" Isn't that what most people do? Isn't that often a key part of sharing ideas? I'm not asking anyone to defend their process, I'm asking what they have found that is worth sharing and why they are not sharing it.

I've been trying to get beyond the superficial answers of not wanting to hurt or offend, acknowledging whatever good they still find in Mormonism, not wanting others to go through the same pain, not wanting to proselytize, etc. My questions are not about that at all. I am told that it is too painful to share, or they wait until they are asked for details about their journey, or I'm pushing against them. I am told they don't care about what I think about them, come across as offended, etc. but all I'm interested in is a direct answer to my direct question. I'm presuming they consider what they have to be good, and so I ask, "why not share it?".

You want to focus on the behavior of people who are leaving; I'm trying to find out whether they are sharing what they have found that is better, and why or why not.

Edited September 25, 2021 by CV75