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'Lazy learner'


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2 hours ago, CA Steve said:

 

I am not the one trying to redefine a noun as a verb in order to make a point. 

Can you provide a sentence in which 'faith' is correctly used as a verb?

Ooh, ooh, let me try! :D 

"You couldn't faith your way out of a wet paper bag!"

or, alternatively

"You couldn't believe your way out of a wet paper bag!"

The difference between the two is this: mere belief does not get you out of the bag. 

I sit there and think to myself, "I believe I could get out of this bag."  This doesn't translate to action until I have faith I can do it, and then try.

The little engine that could, cannot, until she actually tries. Belief sits still; faith moves.

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Dan's Ellsworth posted a blog article about Pres. Nelson's words at conference and he begins it with this caveat:

Is he right?  Is some of the hubbub around Pres. Nelson's words due to them being heard by people already angry with church leaders and so predispositioned to take them badly (for lack of a better term)?  Or is it something completely separate from that?

I found bits of it hard to take but that is more due to exhaustion with trying to do this stuff rather than disagreeing.

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1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Everything is like an MLM, when you get right down to it.  

When you REALLY get down to it, I think that is because MLM's are great examples of evolution!

What works, works.

What survives, survives.

Find a product that everyone needs, and then everyone can sell what everyone needs

It's a geometric progression!

Edited by mfbukowski
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5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

When you REALLY get down to it, I think that is because MLM's are great examples of evolution!

What works, works.

What survives, survives.

Find a product that everyone needs, and then everyone can sell what everyone needs

It's a geometric progression!

But MLMs are about selling a product no one needs at a price above market value and virtually all of the rewards go to someone exploiting others to do the selling.

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1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Ooh, ooh, let me try! :D 

"You couldn't faith your way out of a wet paper bag!"

or, alternatively

"You couldn't believe your way out of a wet paper bag!"

The difference between the two is this: mere belief does not get you out of the bag. 

I sit there and think to myself, "I believe I could get out of this bag."  This doesn't translate to action until I have faith I can do it, and then try.

The little engine that could, cannot, until she actually tries. Belief sits still; faith moves.

Sorry I can only give you 1 rep point.

That comment deserves a dozen!

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3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

But MLMs are about selling a product no one needs at a price above market value and virtually all of the rewards go to someone exploiting others to do the selling.

Alienated labor, hey?

Sounds a little too political for me, or I could tell you about my friend Angela Davis.  Nah, not today, not here. 

"I got better"

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39 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

But MLMs are about selling a product no one needs at a price above market value and virtually all of the rewards go to someone exploiting others to do the selling.

Mmmm, frequently yes, but sometimes no. I've observed many such schemes over the years, and I've seen some egregious examples of what you describe, but I've also seen a few MLMs structured much more favorably and fairly, selling products (or services) that were fairly priced. 

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58 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I don't think that's what President Nelson was saying either.

He is saying that increasing your faith takes work. And if you aren't willing to put in the work then you're not going to get what comes from putting in the work. 

Seems pretty straightforward - and not especially controversial - to me. 

 

If straightforward, would you mind giving some details on how to put the work in? 

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20 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

If straightforward, would you mind giving some details on how to put the work in? 

To receive faith from God our Father is to receive an assurance from him about whatever he assures you about, and to receive an assurance from him all you have to do is go to him in prayer to ask him about something you want to be assured of.

For example, if you have not received an assurance from our Father to assure you that Joseph Smith was one of his prophets under his direction to restore the true church of Jesus Christ in these latter days, then go to him in prayer to ask for his assurance regarding whether or not he was.  And keep asking him until he assures you, either way.

That's how we get faith from God our Father.  We pray to him to ask him to assure us of something.  We don't go to doubters to see what they say, as if doubters speak for our Father in heaven.  We don't even ask others who have received faith from God.

We ask God our Father, directly, through prayer while asking in the name of Jesus Christ.  And we keep asking until he tells us.

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1 hour ago, Amulek said:

Sure:

First, study. Become an engaged learner. Immerse yourself in the scriptures to understand better Christ’s mission and ministry. Know the doctrine of Christ so that you understand its power for your life. Internalize the truth that the Atonement of Jesus Christ applies to you. He took upon Himself your misery, your mistakes, your weakness, and your sins. He paid the compensatory price and provided the power for you to move every mountain you will ever face. You obtain that power with your faith, trust, and willingness to follow Him.

Moving your mountains may require a miracle. Learn about miracles. Miracles come according to your faith in the Lord. Central to that faith is trusting His will and timetable—how and when He will bless you with the miraculous help you desire. Only your unbelief will keep God from blessing you with miracles to move the mountains in your life.

The more you learn about the Savior, the easier it will be to trust in His mercy, His infinite love, and His strengthening, healing, and redeeming power. The Savior is never closer to you than when you are facing or climbing a mountain with faith.

Second, choose to believe in Jesus Christ. If you have doubts about God the Father and His Beloved Son or the validity of the Restoration or the veracity of Joseph Smith’s divine calling as a prophet, choose to believe and stay faithful. Take your questions to the Lord and to other faithful sources. Study with the desire to believe rather than with the hope that you can find a flaw in the fabric of a prophet’s life or a discrepancy in the scriptures. Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters. Allow the Lord to lead you on your journey of spiritual discovery.

Third, act in faith. What would you do if you had more faith? Think about it. Write about it. Then receive more faith by doing something that requires more faith.

Fourth, partake of sacred ordinances worthily. Ordinances unlock the power of God for your life.

And fifth, ask your Heavenly Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, for help.

Faith takes work. Receiving revelation takes work. But “every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.” God knows what will help your faith grow. Ask, and then ask again.

You should have given a talk, thanks!! Oh, and thanks to @Rain and @Zeniffas well! I appreciate your thoughtful input!

Edited by Tacenda
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1 hour ago, Amulek said:

Sure:

First, study. Become an engaged learner. Immerse yourself in the scriptures to understand better Christ’s mission and ministry. Know the doctrine of Christ so that you understand its power for your life. Internalize the truth that the Atonement of Jesus Christ applies to you. He took upon Himself your misery, your mistakes, your weakness, and your sins. He paid the compensatory price and provided the power for you to move every mountain you will ever face. You obtain that power with your faith, trust, and willingness to follow Him.

Moving your mountains may require a miracle. Learn about miracles. Miracles come according to your faith in the Lord. Central to that faith is trusting His will and timetable—how and when He will bless you with the miraculous help you desire. Only your unbelief will keep God from blessing you with miracles to move the mountains in your life.

The more you learn about the Savior, the easier it will be to trust in His mercy, His infinite love, and His strengthening, healing, and redeeming power. The Savior is never closer to you than when you are facing or climbing a mountain with faith.

Second, choose to believe in Jesus Christ. If you have doubts about God the Father and His Beloved Son or the validity of the Restoration or the veracity of Joseph Smith’s divine calling as a prophet, choose to believe and stay faithful. Take your questions to the Lord and to other faithful sources. Study with the desire to believe rather than with the hope that you can find a flaw in the fabric of a prophet’s life or a discrepancy in the scriptures. Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters. Allow the Lord to lead you on your journey of spiritual discovery.

Third, act in faith. What would you do if you had more faith? Think about it. Write about it. Then receive more faith by doing something that requires more faith.

Fourth, partake of sacred ordinances worthily. Ordinances unlock the power of God for your life.

And fifth, ask your Heavenly Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, for help.

Faith takes work. Receiving revelation takes work. But “every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.” God knows what will help your faith grow. Ask, and then ask again.

And when that doesn't work?

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47 minutes ago, ttribe said:

And when that doesn't work?

Then ask the Lord if this is where He wants you to be.  If it is then jump in.  If it isn't then find out where he wants you to be instead.

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33 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Perhaps, I need to elaborate - as my faith was falling apart, I was pleading with God for help in reaffirming the truth.  I was pleading for guidance.  I was willing myself to believe, every day, for at least a year.  I was evaluating my life to determine if I was doing something to cause the heavens to be shut to me.  No answer ever came.  Ever.  I became dangerously depressed and finally had to stop.  The point to my admittedly rhetorical question is that such a prescriptive answer on how we are supposed to get answers from God makes God seem like a vending machine and if we don't get the predetermined answer then it must be the case that we simply aren't putting in enough money (continuing the vending machine analogy).  I find these prescriptive lists to be dangerous to people like me who tried and tried and plead and wept only to have no response because it casts the blame right back at our feet.  Maybe, just maybe, the problem is with the prescription, not with those of us who are taking the prescription.

I found similar in my journey of praying for answers, thanks ttribe. 

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33 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Perhaps, I need to elaborate - as my faith was falling apart, I was pleading with God for help in reaffirming the truth.  I was pleading for guidance.  I was willing myself to believe, every day, for at least a year.  I was evaluating my life to determine if I was doing something to cause the heavens to be shut to me.  No answer ever came.  Ever.  I became dangerously depressed and finally had to stop.  The point to my admittedly rhetorical question is that such a prescriptive answer on how we are supposed to get answers from God makes God seem like a vending machine and if we don't get the predetermined answer then it must be the case that we simply aren't putting in enough money (continuing the vending machine analogy).  I find these prescriptive lists to be dangerous to people like me who tried and tried and plead and wept only to have no response because it casts the blame right back at our feet.  Maybe, just maybe, the problem is with the prescription, not with those of us who are taking the prescription.

They make you feel broken, lost, possibly unloved.  

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1 minute ago, Rain said:

They make you feel broken, lost, possibly unloved.  

All of those things, and then some.

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6 minutes ago, ttribe said:

All of those things, and then some.

Such a struggle for you.  I'm sorry you had to go through it all.

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1 hour ago, ttribe said:

Maybe, just maybe, the problem is with the prescription, not with those of us who are taking the prescription.

I can understand this intellectually -- and certainly empathise! -- but, based on my own personal experiences, oft repeated, I can't really grasp it. Despite my seemingly inborn scepticism and the critical influence of my academic training (PhD in history), the 'prescription' has worked consistently, reliably and predictably in my life, leaving me both surprised and thoroughly convinced. I don't know how to escape that experiential reality.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I can understand this intellectually -- and certainly empathise! -- but, based on my own personal experiences, oft repeated, I can't really grasp it. Despite my seemingly inborn scepticism and my academic training (PhD in history), the 'prescription' has worked consistently, reliably and predictably in my life, leaving me both surprised and thoroughly convinced. I don't know how to escape that experiential reality.

I don’t really think there is a God up there, but that is based on the summed life experiences that I have had which appear much different than your own. It would seem to me that if there is a God and She interacts with people in such different ways, then the only God worth worshiping would be one who takes such things into consideration before judgement. She would be the sole arbiter of who was a “lax disciple” not us mere mortals who at best see the world “through a glass darkly”. 

Edited by SeekingUnderstanding
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53 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I don’t really think there is a God up there, but that is based on the summed life experiences that I have had which appear much different than your own. It would seem to me that if there is a God and She interacts with people in such different ways, then the only God worth worshiping would be one who takes such things into consideration before judgement. She would be the sole arbiter of who was a “lax disciple” not us mere mortals who at best see the world “through a glass darkly”. 

I completely agree with the bold.  

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1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I can understand this intellectually -- and certainly empathise! -- but, based on my own personal experiences, oft repeated, I can't really grasp it. Despite my seemingly inborn scepticism and the critical influence of my academic training (PhD in history), the 'prescription' has worked consistently, reliably and predictably in my life, leaving me both surprised and thoroughly convinced. I don't know how to escape that experiential reality.

So, given the consistency in your own life, what do you make of people like me?

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48 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

... if there is a God and She interacts with people in such different ways ... 

I'm confident that God interacts with people in very different ways in large part because He has interacted with me in such different ways, depending on my situation and needs.

At the same time, there seems to be a fair amount of 'sameness' that characterises much of the personal expression amongst the Saints. Previously, I assumed this was a result of strong systems of acculturation and socialisation. Then I spent one university semester living where I attended a branch so remote that it did not belong to any stake or even district. It was under the jurisdiction of a mission, but the headquarters for the mission were more than 2,000km away, the mission president had never been there, and no missionaries had ever been assigned there.

The branch consisted of three brothers who had been baptised as adults by their father, and the father had been baptised when he met missionaries whilst on a temporary military posting elsewhere in the nation. Two of the brothers had been joined in the Church by their wives, but it had taken years for this to happen, and in fact one of the wives had only recently been baptised before I arrived. The three brothers had raised their children up in the Church, but none of these people had ever met a fulltime missionary, seen a session of General Conference, read a copy of the Liahona, etc. They did have copies of the scriptures, some handbooks, some lesson manuals, and hymn books.

My first Sunday in the branch was a Fast Sunday, and I remember thinking it would be interesting to hear some radically different testimonies. Instead, I heard a series of testimonies that sounded exactly like mine. People discussed their experiences with God and gospel principles in ways that sounded 100 per cent familiar. I couldn't understand it at first, but then I realised that what they were describing sounded the same because the experiences themselves were so nearly alike. It was an interesting eye-opener for me.

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then the only God worth worshiping would be one who takes such things into consideration before judgement.

Oh, absolutely. I believe that too -- in part because it's what the scriptures have taught me, in part because it matches how I've witnessed God operate to this point.

We had a university intern in our office a couple of years ago, and I was reading her final research report again this morning. In it, she discussed how, before Indigenous people in Canada are sentenced, a report is prepared that attempts to explain the precise cultural background and lived experiences of the person. Our Heavenly Father is like that but perfect in His understanding.

I look forward to seeing all kinds of people in the Celestial Kingdom who seem thoroughly lost here!

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