Chum Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 3 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I wish the church would come out against this group I think that directly challenging any political group is off the table, nevertheless such an extremely charged political collective. If they feel compelled to address the issues surrounding QAnon, I feel they'd do so via proxy-speak. That is, they'll address the principles that the group may be endangering. My opinion is that the Church's methods here are as close to wisdom as is possible. Extremist political groups are surrounded by a powerful event horizon. If the Church got anywhere near it, they'd sucked in and spun out of control. They're better off working from a safe distance. 3
Tacenda Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Chum said: I think that directly challenging any political group is off the table, nevertheless such an extremely charged political collective. If they feel compelled to address the issues surrounding QAnon, I feel they'd do so via proxy-speak. That is, they'll address the principles that the group may be endangering. My opinion is that the Church's methods here are as close to wisdom as is possible. Extremist political groups are surrounded by a powerful event horizon. If the Church got anywhere near it, they'd sucked in and spun out of control. They're better off working from a safe distance. Some of my extended and my own, family, friends and neighbors are being sucked in and they are mostly stalwart members of the church, so that is my hope I guess, something to wake them out of this deep soup of lies. Edited January 31, 2021 by Tacenda
Chum Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said: There are good people in the US but the culture is more wicked. See, this is where our ethical credibility kind of goes off the rails. Let's take Harry Reid and Orrin Hatch as examples. I assume both have been well marked as Church members of the highest standing. However, both of them also made a career of trading law and other political favors to powerful intellectual property interests for campaign funds. The word that best describes this activity is bribery. The real issue is breadth and scope of the harm that's done when they sacrifice citizen interests of entire country in order to further expand the massive wealth of a few lobbyists and their handlers. Back to this thread: Wicked behavior discussions here have been attached to behaviors like extra-marital sex and recreational drug use. The inference is that these are the people that God hates or are agents of Babylon or some other powerfully negative connotation. So on one hand, men who lived a presumably unrepentant life of betraying an entire nation for personal gain are generally assumed to be on a fast track to the Celestial Kingdom. Conversely, people who have sex outside of marriage are branded as the adversary's personal poster children. Reasonable people will consider the above and know right away that something in that equation needs refiguring. Their next thought is going to be to wonder why our math is leading us to such poor conclusions.
Chum Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 34 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Some of my extended and my own, family, friends and neighbors are being sucked in and they are mostly stalwart members of the church, so that is my hope I guess, something to wake them out of this deep soup of lies. As a Church and a nation we lived thru generations of similar movements (but on a much, much larger scale) following Reconstruction. Countless terrible things happened but there were also Americans of good conscience that stood against these harmful movements and blunted their effect. I suspect the Church's function was to support and edify those Americans and their families.
LDS Watchman Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 4 hours ago, InCognitus said: "25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; 26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord." (Doctrine and Covenants 112:25–26). This describes the covenant breakers in the church. Yes and no. It doesn't refer to the covenant breakers in the church in the sense of it being a few individuals who have broken their covenants. It refers to those who profess to know the Savior but do not actually know him. Who could that be? I'm also not taking the One Mighty and Strong prophecy out of context at all. Look at all the scriptures I just shared about the coming Last Day's Servant of the Lord. The One Mighty and Strong prophecy fits right in line with all the other prophecies about this coming Last Day's Servant.
InCognitus Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 5 minutes ago, LDS Watchman said: Yes and no. It doesn't refer to the covenant breakers in the church in the sense of it being a few individuals who have broken their covenants. It refers to those who profess to know the Savior but do not actually know him. Who could that be? Those who "profess to know [the Lord's] name" are all members of the church, and those who are the covenant breakers are a portion of the individuals within the church (large or small percentage of the membership, it is irrelevant to the point). The Lord warned about this in D&C 41:1 and elsewhere. They profess to "know" the Lord, but they don't keep his commandments. 43 minutes ago, LDS Watchman said: I'm also not taking the One Mighty and Strong prophecy out of context at all. Look at all the scriptures I just shared about the coming Last Day's Servant of the Lord. The One Mighty and Strong prophecy fits right in line with all the other prophecies about this coming Last Day's Servant. According to the First Presidency, you are taking the verse in D&C 85 out of context.
LDS Watchman Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) 59 minutes ago, InCognitus said: According to the First Presidency, you are taking the verse in D&C 85 out of context. No, that's not what their statement says at all. In their statement they contradicted themselves and clearly didn't know who or what was being referred to. They left open the possibility that the prophecy could yet have a future fulfillment. Like I stated before, they were doing all they could to discredit false prophets claiming to be the fulfillment of this prophecy, not providing an authoritative binding interpretation of the prophecy. This prophecy fits right in line with the other prophecies of a coming last day's servant. 59 minutes ago, InCognitus said: Those who "profess to know [the Lord's] name" are all members of the church, and those who are the covenant breakers are a portion of the individuals within the church (large or small percentage of the membership, it is irrelevant to the point). The Lord warned about this in D&C 41:1 and elsewhere. They profess to "know" the Lord, but they don't keep his commandments. You are correct that these are members of the church who profess to know the Lord but don't keep his commandments. They will be destroyed. And the first to be destroyed are those who are also blaspheming the Lord. It will be the majority who are destroyed. This is clear from multiple scriptures. Edited January 31, 2021 by LDS Watchman
LDS Watchman Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 1 hour ago, Chum said: Wicked behavior discussions here have been attached to behaviors like extra-marital sex and recreational drug use. The inference is that these are the people that God hates or are agents of Babylon or some other powerfully negative connotation. So on one hand, men who lived a presumably unrepentant life of betraying an entire nation for personal gain are generally assumed to be on a fast track to the Celestial Kingdom. Conversely, people who have sex outside of marriage are branded as the adversary's personal poster children. Those who live off of bribes are more wicked than the common unrepentant sinner, guilty of the usual vices. Both groups are ripe for destruction however.
AtlanticMike Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 12 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: There are good people in the US but the culture is more wicked. Wicked people do donate money to charity. Wicked people do good things from time to time. Overall we are far more wicked in my estimation than 50 years ago. Would you mind explaining how as a people we're more wicked today than 50 years ago? Are you talking about modesty, sex, religion or just day to day life?
carbon dioxide Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said: Would you mind explaining how as a people we're more wicked today than 50 years ago? Are you talking about modesty, sex, religion or just day to day life? Everything. Nothing stays static for long. Either society has moved more righteous or more wicked. In my experience it is more wicked. It is undeniable that society is moving more secular. I have no reason to believe that secularism leads to righteousness. A secular society is the devil's playground. The scriptures suggest as we progress towards the second coming, society grows in wickedness. Wickedness takes many forms. From morality to how people treat each other. 1
AtlanticMike Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 28 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: Everything. Nothing stays static for long. Either society has moved more righteous or more wicked. In my experience it is more wicked. It is undeniable that society is moving more secular. I have no reason to believe that secularism leads to righteousness. A secular society is the devil's playground. The scriptures suggest as we progress towards the second coming, society grows in wickedness. Wickedness takes many forms. From morality to how people treat each other. I honestly think some of every generation think society is always becoming more and more wicked. Even in the early days of the church the brethren thought the world was more wicked than it had ever been. If you could rotate the earth backwards, what year would you go back to? 1
Tacenda Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said: I honestly think some of every generation think society is always becoming more and more wicked. Even in the early days of the church the brethren thought the world was more wicked than it had ever been. If you could rotate the earth backwards, what year would you go back to? This one! (dispensation) You weren't asking me, but I think people are a lot less evil now. We are much more aware of those all around us and seems we're much better at caring and loving people and more accepting of others who are different than ourselves. I listened to a podcast the other day about the Bear River massacre and I don't see that happening today. And so many other times, the US anyway, have been a more kinder nation.
juliann Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 21 hours ago, LDS Watchman said: I'm of course saddened by our present situation and our failure to establish Zion, but my goal was not to vent or complain. I was merely pointing out that according to the scriptures there is a connection between the changing of the ordinances and the breaking of the everlasting covenant and worshipping the false gods of Babylon and that I see a fulfillment to these scriptures in the church today. As for other Abraham faiths taking part, I see nothing that suggests that the Muslims will take part. Perhaps a few who are converted to the Lord, but that would be it. From the Book of Obadiah it would appear that vast majority of Muslims will be destroyed. The Jews will definitely take part, but will be the last tribed gathered to the New Jerusalem (D&C 133). And of course members of the lost 10 tribes will take part, butwho exactly these people are only the Lord knows at this time. My take on how things will play out is as follows: The destruction and burning of the wicked in the last days will begin with the church (D&C 112:24-26). The majority of the church will be destroyed completely. The most righteous group of members will be gathered out just before the destruction happens, or perhaps at the beginning of the destruction. This righteous group are the 5 wise virgins from the parable of the 10 virgins. The men from the 5 righteous virgins, will make up the 144K who will build the New Jerusalem and gather the rest of the elect to Zion. These are the Ephraimites spoken of in D&C 133, who will be doing the gathering of Israel. They will be working under the direction of the the Lord's last day's servant (referrered to in the scriptures as the Davidic Servant, One Mighty and Strong, the Branch, Elias who will restore all things, etc). Some of the elect they gather will be the hidden lost tribes, wherever they are, and others will be gathered from all nations of the earth. These will not all be members of the church. In fact most probably won't be. Another group of members, the 5 foolish virgins, who are pretty righteous, but allowed themselves to be deceived and lulled into a false sense of security, will also survive the initial destruction of the wicked in the church, but will not be gathered out with the 5 wise virgins. These will endure the tribulation of the saints under the the hands of the anti-Christ spoken of in the book of Revelation, Daniel, Isaiah, etc. Those of the 5 foolish virgins who survive the tribulation and remain faithful will eventually be gathered out to the New Jerusalem. Once the elect (who are not just the current righteous LDS) are all safely gathered to the New Jerusalem and surrounding stakes, the final destruction of the wicked takes place and the earth is wiped clean of all inhabitants besides those who are gathered to Zion. Then the Lord will appear again in glory and reign upon the earth for a thousand years. Once these last days scenerios are broken down, they inevitably come down to nothing else but....survival. Then we wonder why we get crazed preppers. It's time to drop this stuff and concentrate on gospel living. 3
JLHPROF Posted January 31, 2021 Author Posted January 31, 2021 13 minutes ago, Tacenda said: This one! (dispensation) You weren't asking me, but I think people are a lot less evil now. We are much more aware of those all around us and seems we're much better at caring and loving people and more accepting of others who are different than ourselves. I listened to a podcast the other day about the Bear River massacre and I don't see that happening today. And so many other times, the US anyway, have been a more kinder nation. Oversimplified. You may actually be right. But our societal moral compass continues to shift. Much evil is considered good today. Much once considered good is now called evil. It's impossible in my opinion to compare the relative "goodness" of two different time periods. Except for comparing their closeness to the Lord (via devotion, life focus, recorded interaction, revelation, etc). In theory a generation demonstrably closer to the Lord would have more goodness. 1
Rain Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 41 minutes ago, Tacenda said: This one! (dispensation) You weren't asking me, but I think people are a lot less evil now. We are much more aware of those all around us and seems we're much better at caring and loving people and more accepting of others who are different than ourselves. I listened to a podcast the other day about the Bear River massacre and I don't see that happening today. And so many other times, the US anyway, have been a more kinder nation. But now we have massacres in schools and movie theaters. People who won't get to know neighbors or help them. People who hate others only because of who they voted for president. Instructions on how to kill people and make bombs and other things I won't mention on the internet that nearly everyone can access. And it goes on. Like said above I think it would be impossible to really compare 2 time periods. I do feel things are worse today, but then I think about some things done in the past and I'm not so sure it is worse. I am confident we do not have less evil overall though. 2
Chum Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 13 hours ago, LDS Watchman said: Those who live off of bribes are more wicked than the common unrepentant sinner, guilty of the usual vices. Both groups are ripe for destruction however. Your framing here infers an equal sort of judgment for someone who harms millions and someone who had extra-marital sex. But even that perspective doesn't explain why people who harm millions don't get a mention until the matter is pressed while extra-sex'rs get hammered relentlessly. 1
Chum Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Rain said: But now we have massacres in schools and movie theaters. Domestic terrorism comes with civilization. In the US, rates have been historically low since the 1970s (ref:pg18). We may be safer than we've ever been. What has changed is that news orgs report each distant incident as if it occurred in our own community. That has led to local officials and LEO to amplifying that skewed perspective. Edited January 31, 2021 by Chum ref clarification: pdf page is 18, doc page is 2 2
CV75 Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 1 hour ago, Chum said: Your framing here infers an equal sort of judgment for someone who harms millions and someone who had extra-marital sex. But even that perspective doesn't explain why people who harm millions don't get a mention until the matter is pressed while extra-sex'rs get hammered relentlessly. Not equal, but there are consequences for acting badly, and accumulative and cumulative consequences of all the ways we can act badly, whether in private or publicly. What makes the wickedness in the latter days worse is that there is less time to turn things around on the Lord’s timetable. 57 minutes ago, Chum said: Domestic terrorism comes with civilization. In the US, rates have been historically low since the 1970s (ref:pg18). We may be safer than we've ever been. What has changed is that news orgs report each distant incident as if it occurred in our own community. That has led to local officials and LEO to amplifying that skewed perspective. The accumulation under safer conditions is still accumulation, and accentuates the urgency, kind of the inverse of D&C 18: 13 -16: And how great is his sorrow in the soul that repenteth not! Wherefore, if you refrain from calling repentance unto this people, and neglect to bring even one soul unto me, how great shall be your sorrow with him! And now, if your sorrow will be great with one soul, how great will be your sorrow if you should neglect many souls! 1
Stargazer Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 5 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: Everything. Nothing stays static for long. Either society has moved more righteous or more wicked. In my experience it is more wicked. It is undeniable that society is moving more secular. I have no reason to believe that secularism leads to righteousness. A secular society is the devil's playground. The scriptures suggest as we progress towards the second coming, society grows in wickedness. Wickedness takes many forms. From morality to how people treat each other.
JLHPROF Posted January 31, 2021 Author Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Stargazer said: Couldn't resist - Edited January 31, 2021 by JLHPROF
Stargazer Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Couldn't resist - Yeah, that's in the same scene. I downloaded the scene as she passes by in the truck, and cut it down to Spock's statement. I love that scene.
LDS Watchman Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 4 hours ago, juliann said: Once these last days scenerios are broken down, they inevitably come down to nothing else but....survival. Then we wonder why we get crazed preppers. It's time to drop this stuff and concentrate on gospel living. Nah, the Lord didn't give us all this information about the last days so we could just "drop this stuff." He actually commanded us to study these prophecies and to be watching for the signs of his coming. As for "prepping," some physical preparation is in order, because as the Lord said, "If ye are prepared, ye shall not fear." The church used to emphasize a years supply of food as being essential. Ezra Taft Benson said that our year's supply would be as valuable to us when the tribulation comes as the ark was to Noah and his family, when the flood came. But we need not get carried away like the "crazed preppers" you are referring to. The greatest preparation is not physical but spiritual. And that is done by turning our hearts fully to God, forsaking the world, and living righteously.
LDS Watchman Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 3 hours ago, Chum said: Your framing here infers an equal sort of judgment for someone who harms millions and someone who had extra-marital sex. But even that perspective doesn't explain why people who harm millions don't get a mention until the matter is pressed while extra-sex'rs get hammered relentlessly. I'm not framing equal judgment upon these two groups. However, both are bound for the Telestial kingdom if they do not repent. Isaiah mentions those who accept bribes and grind the faces of the poor. Unfortunately their are members of the church in high places who are guilty of these things and their sin is not being addressed. This is among the reasons that destruction is coming upon the church.
CV75 Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, AtlanticMike said: I honestly think some of every generation think society is always becoming more and more wicked. Even in the early days of the church the brethren thought the world was more wicked than it had ever been. If you could rotate the earth backwards, what year would you go back to? Rotating the earth backwards, in effect, is like hying to Kolob and adopting its reckoning of time. In your quotes, both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are not saying society (i.e. the world, generation, etc.) is more wicked, but wicked, period: It is "as corrupt as the generation of the Jews that crucified Christ" and, as Brigham Young supposed, "organized.. to a lower state of darkness, sin and ignorance." Given that the Lord is Coming quickly, and from a Kolobian perspective, there is less time each year to rescue the spiritually dark, sinful and ignorant generation living upon the earth, which has the same effect as being more wicked as you compare the following ratio over time: Populationdark-sinful-ignorant : Time Remaining So anyone saying society's ways (turned away from the Lord at a constant level) and the Lord's ways (advancing in righteousness at an accelerated pace) are moving further apart is absolutely correct, rendering the world relatively more wicked than it was before. Edited January 31, 2021 by CV75
carbon dioxide Posted February 1, 2021 Posted February 1, 2021 3 hours ago, LDS Watchman said: I'm not framing equal judgment upon these two groups. However, both are bound for the Telestial kingdom if they do not repent. Isaiah mentions those who accept bribes and grind the faces of the poor. Unfortunately their are members of the church in high places who are guilty of these things and their sin is not being addressed. This is among the reasons that destruction is coming upon the church. Why would God visit destruction on the Church? If there are bad members, he has ways of weeding them out. Yes the scriptures say that God will visit judgement on the church but what that judgement is is not described. The church is a world wide church. It is not like all are gathered in one place and a volcano will erupt and wipe most of it out. Also members are gathered among non-members so any violent judgement on the church will also will hit those outside of the church. I think the judgement will be more of a purge of some sort. Not a destruction that involved damage of property or killing off of people. 3
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