LDS Watchman Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 (edited) 58 minutes ago, Chum said: I think most people are working a zillion hours a week to stave off homelessness. What are they worshiping? I dunno. Maybe dinner. Are most members of the church working a zillion hours a week to stave off homelessness? I don't think so. Some members have to work themselves to death just to barely scrape by, but I would venture that there are a lot more of us who work crazy hours and have husband and wife working in order to pay for the big house, nice cars, smart phones, big screen TVs, expensive vacations, etc., and not because we're about to be homeless. Yesterday's wants have become today's "needs." Most of us are fully entrenched in Babylon I'm afraid. Edited to add: The only reason any faithful saint should have to work a zillion hours a week to avoid being homeless while there are so many extremely wealthy members of the church is because the saints rejected the law of consecration long ago. As the Lord said, "if ye are not one ye are not mine." We certainly aren't one in the way God intended for us to be. Edited January 30, 2021 by LDS Watchman
JLHPROF Posted January 30, 2021 Author Posted January 30, 2021 1 minute ago, LDS Watchman said: Most of us are fully entrenched in Babylon I'm afraid. I'm not convinced of the full fleeing Babylon ideal. I've known people who are so determined to hide they don't like birth certificates or driver's licenses. I've also known those who are absolutely convinced not only is a societal collapse imminent but we will also revert to an 1800s agrarian lifestyle to survive. AND that God wants it this way. I am a Millennialist. I do believe the end prophecies. But I don't believe Brigham's 1846 solution is the path we will repeat. 3
Chum Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 25 minutes ago, LDS Watchman said: Are most members of the church working a zillion hours a week to stave off homelessness? I don't think. Thinking is awesome. Here folks are struggling because here isn't any kind of outlier.
LDS Watchman Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Chum said: Thinking is awesome. Here folks are struggling because here isn't any kind of outlier. Okay? I don't have any idea what you're talking about. Where is here? You also didn't address my point about the rejection of the law of consecration. Edited January 30, 2021 by LDS Watchman
Chum Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 30 minutes ago, LDS Watchman said: Some members have to work themselves to death just to barely scrape by, but I would venture that there are a lot more of us who work crazy hours and have husband and wife working in order to pay for the big house, nice cars, smart phones, big screen TVs, expensive vacations, etc., and not because we're about to be homeless. Why do you believe that it's common for Americans to live in excessive houses, drive excessive cars and take expensive vacations? Asking because there aren't indicators that this is a typical lifestyle, in the vast majority of US's 3007 counties. and - Smart phones and flat screens haven't been strong indicators of wealth for at least a decade. Not sure what is. Health Insurance maybe.
LDS Watchman Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 43 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I'm not convinced of the full fleeing Babylon ideal. I've known people who are so determined to hide they don't like birth certificates or driver's licenses. I've also known those who are absolutely convinced not only is a societal collapse imminent but we will also revert to an 1800s agrarian lifestyle to survive. AND that God wants it this way. I am a Millennialist. I do believe the end prophecies. But I don't believe Brigham's 1846 solution is the path we will repeat. I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. My point has nothing to do with fleeing into the wilderness and living off of the land. Babylon is worldliness. Most of us members are very worldly. We have nice homes, nice cars, and all the other nice things of this world. Most of us work hard to obtain as many of the nice things of this world as we can. We watch worldly television programs, listen to worldly music, wear fancy worldly clothes, and so on. According to D&C 1 (and many other scriptures) the changing of the ordinances and breaking of the everlasting covenant go hand and hand with being entrenched in Babylon and worshipping the false gods of Babylon.
LDS Watchman Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 10 minutes ago, Chum said: Why do you believe that it's common for Americans to live in excessive houses, drive excessive cars and take expensive vacations? Asking because there aren't indicators that this is a typical lifestyle, in the vast majority of US's 3007 counties. and - Smart phones and flat screens haven't been strong indicators of wealth for at least a decade. Not sure what is. Health Insurance maybe. On average we Americans, even the "poor" ones, live better than 99% of the world's population up until very recent history. We are very rich. The fact that even the "poor" have smart phones, big screen TVs, etc shows just how wealthy we are. Very few Americans work a zillion hours a week because they have to in order to avoid being homeless. The "poor" also partake in all of the sins of Babylon, just like the rich. Drugs, alcohol, illicit sex, Sabbath breaking, greed, selfishness, abortion, etc. We have become a very wicked nation and are ripe for destruction. My comment was about the majority of the "active" members of the church and not the US at large, though. I know some are "poor" by US standards, but most range between middle and upper class. I'm not saying all members are entrenched in Babylon either. I know some very humble members. But from what I have observed collectively most of us our quite proud and worship most of the false gods of Babylon.
Chum Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 1 hour ago, LDS Watchman said: The only reason any faithful saint should have to work a zillion hours a week to avoid being homeless while there are so many extremely wealthy members of the church is because the saints rejected the law of consecration long ago. I think if consecration was in play, it'd be in an area that was ~exclusively LDS. I wouldn't want to live in any kind of monoculture. I've seen cloistering amplify social flaws and it's a fairly terrible outcome.
AtlanticMike Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 20 minutes ago, LDS Watchman said: On average we Americans, even the "poor" ones, live better than 99% of the world's population up until very recent history. We are very rich. The fact that even the "poor" have smart phones, big screen TVs, etc shows just how wealthy we are. Very few Americans work a zillion hours a week because they have to in order to avoid being homeless. The "poor" also partake in all of the sins of Babylon, just like the rich. Drugs, alcohol, illicit sex, Sabbath breaking, greed, selfishness, abortion, etc. We have become a very wicked nation and are ripe for destruction. My comment was about the majority of the "active" members of the church and not the US at large, though. I know some are "poor" by US standards, but most range between middle and upper class. I'm not saying all members are entrenched in Babylon either. I know some very humble members. But from what I have observed collectively most of us our quite proud and worship most of the false gods of Babylon. You said we have become a very wicked nation and ripe for destruction. Wrong. We are one of the most generous countries in the world. We have beat back socialist dictators around the world, fought a war to free slaves, we feed other nations, Americans are not just generous with money but also their time. We travel to other countries and supply wells, housing, medical, charities like operation smile and many others. We have almost 100% eradicated slavery from our land while countries like North Korea, China, Pakistan, Russia and a handful of African countries still have modern day slavery. While other countries make women wear certain clothing, head dress, kill them for adultry, kill homosexuals, we on the other hand have worked through those problems and come up with a more humane solution called freedom. I dont know what country you live in, but your not describing the america I know.
Chum Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 20 minutes ago, LDS Watchman said: On average we Americans, even the "poor" ones, live better than 99% of the world's population up until very recent history. On average, we Americans, even the poor ones, operate at a skill level that is vastly higher, than in any previous civilization. Our culture is unimaginably more complex than in any period in history. It is routine for nonsensical transgressions to result in a lifetime of punishment. It's a reasonable synopsis that people are surrounded by more pitfalls than navigable terrain. While folks struggle to manage endless expectations, countless new laws, regulations and obligations are constantly being created - which we are also subject to. Pick an adult from a distant era and place them into the life of a poor American. I think it'll quickly become clear how poor Americans earn every scrap they have.
Chum Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 (edited) edit: The assertion I had here may not be good fit for this conversation. Deleting it. Edited January 30, 2021 by Chum
LDS Watchman Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 54 minutes ago, Chum said: I think if consecration was in play, it'd be in an area that was ~exclusively LDS. Thinking is awesome. (Sorry couldn't resist). It doesn't matter what either of us think. God commanded the saints to live the law of consecration, but the saints rejected it. The Lord said that the saints were as salt which had lost its savor and that they were going to be trodden under foot because of this. Zion will not be established until there are no poor among us and have all things in common. Currently in the church their are multimillionaires and dirt poor. The Lord is not pleased with this.
Chum Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 6 minutes ago, LDS Watchman said: It doesn't matter what either of us think. It does to me. Quote God commanded the saints to live the law of consecration AFAIK, there is no way for you or I to live the law of consecration as was outlined to the Saints in 1831. We can not take what we own to a Church location and begin living there. Quote Zion will not be established until there are no poor among us and have all things in common. Kind of more worried about homeless retirement than Zion. Quote Currently in the church their are multimillionaires and dirt poor. The Lord is not pleased with this. How do we know this? In 50+ General Conferences, I don't ever recall hearing a GA say God is not pleased with Saints being millionaires. Heck, I've never even heard a GA call out pols who sell law for wealth generating favors. I kind of think they're okay with it.
LDS Watchman Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 49 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said: You said we have become a very wicked nation and ripe for destruction. Wrong. Are you serious? While there are of course good, kind, charitable people in America, collectively we are extremely wicked. Rampant immortality and broken homes all over the place. Nearly a full acceptance of homosexuality and every other sexual perversion known to man. We have being legally murdering our unwanted offspring by the millions since 1973. We are committing every sin under the sun. Many of them we don't even try to hide anymore. Read Romans 1. Paul describes the wicked Americans (and Europeans, etc) in the last days to a T. 58 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said: We have beat back socialist dictators around the world We're not the good guys you think we are. We have toppled dictators when it suited our foreign interests and upheld others when it better suited our interests. Most of the wars the US has fought in have been completely unrighteousness and have been for the purpose of economic gain. We committed terrible atrocities against the Filipinos, Koreans, Vietnamese, and others. Even in WWII, which was supposedly the "good war," we committed terrible war crimes against German and Japanese civilians and POWs. 1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said: fought a war to free slaves That never happened. The Civil War was caused largely because of the slave issue, but it certainly was not fought for the purpose of freeing the slaves. 1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said: We have almost 100% eradicated slavery from our land Sex slavery is rampant in the US today. 1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said: I dont know what country you live in, but your not describing the america I know. I think you might have to open your eyes a little more then. America is very wicked and getting more and more wicked all the time.
LDS Watchman Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 2 minutes ago, Chum said: In 50+ General Conferences, I don't ever recall hearing a GA say God is not pleased with Saints being millionaires. Heck, I've never even heard a GA call out pols who sell law for wealth generating favors. I kind of think they're okay with it. Yeah, the GAs (who are all well off themselves) never ever say anything about our collective love of riches and worldliness. The scriptures have a thing or two to say about our GAs not calling us to repentance over this. According to the scriptures the Lord is not too happy about their silence on this issue.
Chum Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 2 hours ago, LDS Watchman said: I don't have any idea what you're talking about. Where is here? The working class here are generally a paycheck or so away from homelessness. In this, we are like the vast majority of the US. Here, 100 hours/wk gets food/rent/util/trans but not non-essentials like health insurance/med care, retirement, etc - like the vast majority of the US. It's unclear to me why I am discussing a scenario as common as a sunrise, as if you have never heard of it before. Here is Florida and it doesn't matter.
Chum Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 16 minutes ago, LDS Watchman said: Sex slavery is rampant in the US today. Sex trafficking panic and the associated lies are much, much more rampant.
Chum Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 16 minutes ago, LDS Watchman said: Yeah, the GAs (who are all well off themselves) Just to be clear, I'm calling out the Church's institutional silence toward profoundly bad Pol behavior and GA's pulled punches about wealth. I am expressing no opinion about wealthy GAs.
LDS Watchman Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 2 minutes ago, Chum said: The working class here are generally a paycheck or so away from homelessness. In this, we are like the vast majority of the US. Here, 100 hours/wk gets food/rent/util/trans but not non-essentials like health insurance/med care, retirement, etc - like the vast majority of the US. It's unclear to me why I am discussing a scenario as common as a sunrise, as if you have never heard of it before. Here is Florida and it doesn't matter. While I obviously don't know the first thing about your present circumstances, I do of course know that there are many Americans living paycheck to paycheck. I've been there myself. I worked a blue collar job for over a decade. I know it's hard work and money can be tight. I'm not sure what you mean by "working class." Skilled labor usually pays a decent wage. Unskilled labor not so much. Like I said, I worked a blue collar job for over a decade. Many trades offer benefits if you work for a reputible company. Members of the working class who aquire a skill can generally do just fine. But of course many people still struggle for a variety of reasons.
Chum Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, LDS Watchman said: I do of course know that there are many Americans living paycheck to paycheck. Not many, most. As in 50%-75% of Americans. Quote I'm not sure what you mean by working class. In this case, 50%-75% of Americans. Quote Skilled jobs usually pay a decent wage Where they exist in sufficient numbers to employ the bulk of skilled workers seeking a job - which isn't anywhere. Edited January 30, 2021 by Chum
LDS Watchman Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 8 minutes ago, Chum said: Sex trafficking panic and the associated lies are much, much more rampant. It's hard to say. I tend to think that the whole operation underground railroad is a scam. Nevertheless human trafficking in the US is a much more serious problem than most people realize.
Chum Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 6 minutes ago, LDS Watchman said: Nevertheless human trafficking in the US is a much more serious problem than most people realize. Peoples' realization is influenced by nearly Every. Media. Outlet. reliably amplifying whatever sex trafficking myth is handed to them. That would seem to indicate we have too much poisoned understanding, instead of not enough.
AtlanticMike Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 6 hours ago, LDS Watchman said: Zion will not be established until there are no poor among us and have all things in common. Currently in the church their are multimillionaires and dirt poor. The Lord is not pleased with this. Honest question, in your opinion, how do we solve this disparity?
LDS Watchman Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said: Honest question, in your opinion, how do we solve this disparity? You're probably not going to like this answer, but according to the scriptures there isn't much we can do to solve this disparity at the moment. The saints were given a chance to redeem Zion in the early 1830s and blew it. Now we have to wait until the Lord makes the call again. The church will need to be cleansed and then the righteous remnant in the church will build up Zion. This cleansing will happen when the Lord wills it, and not before. In the meantime, what we can do is recognize that all is not well in Zion and individually seek God and repent. We need to stop having our hearts set on riches and partaking of the sins of Babylon, so that we can make the cut when the inevitable cleansing happens.
AtlanticMike Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 (edited) 57 minutes ago, LDS Watchman said: You're probably not going to like this answer, but according to the scriptures there isn't much we can do to solve this disparity at the moment. The saints were given a chance to redeem Zion in the early 1830s and blew it. Now we have to wait until the Lord makes the call again. The church will need to be cleansed and then the righteous remnant in the church will build up Zion. This cleansing will happen when the Lord wills it, and not before. In the meantime, what we can do is recognize that all is not well in Zion and individually seek God and repent. We need to stop having our hearts set on riches and partaking of the sins of Babylon, so that we can make the cut when the inevitable cleansing happens. I don't dislike anyone's opinion actually. If that's how you view the gospel then that's great, you picked the perfect screen name. That's a compliment by the way. But keep in mind being rich or poor isn't just about monetary wealth, it's also a state of mind. Some of the happiest people I know are poor and some of the most miserable people I know are rich. Money brings along huge responsibilities with it. Monetarily, I'm not "rich", but I do ok, my biggest bill is health insurance, it sucks, I started a small business basically to take care of that bill because it pissed me off to pay it. That small business now has one full time employ and me working it partime. Also keep in mind, most people you perceive as rich, aren't. Alot of my roofing jobs are custom, so I work for alot of rich people, I meet 80 to 90 new customers a year. The income gap isnt because rich people are greedy, it's their lifestyle, how they manage money compared to people who are poor. For example on life style differences, I've been going in rich and poor neighborhoods for well over 25 years to work. Year around, hot or cold, rich people are outside walking, running, riding bikes lifting weights and so on. Poor neighborhoods dont have the same amount of activity. That's just one example, I could go on but I won't. Your looking for an equality that's not going to be there in my opinion. Some people are just willing to work harder than others. In your ideal world, you would have to hold those people back so they couldn't out perform the people who aren't willing to put in the time. Ultimately, being rich in life is a state of mind. I rather make $30,000 a year and be happy mentally, than make $2,000,000 a year and be totally miserable. Edited January 30, 2021 by AtlanticMike
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