pogi Posted August 20, 2020 Posted August 20, 2020 (edited) Much has been discussed about the evidences for the historicity of the Book of Mormon, but I have not really heard much discussion surrounding 3 Nephi 8. This seems to have been a significant and major event that would have left some evidence of massive destruction, geologically and otherwise. Is there any such evidence supporting such an event in any of the hypothesized geographical settings/models of the Book of Mormon, such as MesoAmerica, or otherwise around the time of A.D. 33-34? Here is a list of some of the things that there should be some evidence for: Quote 5 And it came to pass in the athirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day of the month, there arose a great bstorm, such an one as never had been known in all the land. 6 And there was also a great and terrible tempest; and there was terrible athunder, insomuch that it did bshake the whole earth as if it was about to divide asunder. 7 And there were exceedingly sharp lightnings, such as never had been known in all the land. 8 And the acity of Zarahemla did take fire. 9 And the city of aMoroni did bsink into the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof were drowned. 10 And the earth was carried up upon the city of aMoronihah, that in the place of the city there became a great bmountain. 11 And there was a great and terrible destruction in the land southward. 12 But behold, there was a more great and terrible destruction in the land northward; for behold, the awhole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest and the whirlwinds, and the thunderings and the lightnings, and the exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth; 13 And the ahighways were broken up, and the level roads were spoiled, and many smooth places became rough. 14 And many agreat and notable cities were bsunk, and many were cburned, and many were shaken till the buildings thereof had fallen to the earth, and the inhabitants thereof were slain, and the places were left desolate. 15 And there were some cities which remained; but the damage thereof was exceedingly great, and there were many in them who were slain. 16 And there were some who were carried away in the awhirlwind; and whither they went no man knoweth, save they know that they were carried away. 17 And thus the face of the whole earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the quaking of the earth. 18 And behold, the rocks were rent in twain; they were broken up upon the face of the whole earth, insomuch that they were afound in broken fragments, and in seams and in cracks, upon all the face of the land. 19 And it came to pass that when the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the storm, and the tempest, and the quakings of the earth did cease—for behold, they did last for about the space of athree bhours; and it was said by some that the time was greater; nevertheless, all these great and terrible things were done in about the space of three hours—and then behold, there was cdarkness upon the face of the land. 20 And it came to pass that there was thick darkness upon all the face of the land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof who had not fallen could afeel the bvapor of darkness; Some of the notable features include new mountains, burned cities, sunken cities, demolished cities. In some areas (lands Northward) the destruction was so great that the "whole face of the land was changed". Are there any relatively new mountains in the surrounding areas, for example? Is there any evidence of a mountain being created in a few days, ever in history? The youngest mountain range in the America's that I know of is the Sierra Nevada range, which does reach Mexico, but that is definitely not only 2,0000 years old. If this event happened, we would not expect to find a single city or highways older than A.D. 34-35 that did not receive significant damage to it. However, in MesoAmerica we find many, many fairly well preserved cities dating back as far as 2000-1000 BC. How is that possible? Why aren't there more crumbled cities in the area? How could these ancient cities be preserved so well given such an event? Any evidence of a potential volcanic event around that time, causing a mist of darkness? Edited August 20, 2020 by pogi 2
Duncan Posted August 20, 2020 Posted August 20, 2020 correct me if I am wrong but a Dr. Bart Kowallis of BYU did work in this stuff years ago, i'm too lazy though to look it up though😴 3
gav Posted August 21, 2020 Posted August 21, 2020 3 hours ago, pogi said: Much has been discussed about the evidences for the historicity of the Book of Mormon, but I have not really heard much discussion surrounding 3 Nephi 8. This seems to have been a significant and major event that would have left some evidence of massive destruction, geologically and otherwise. Is there any such evidence supporting such an event in any of the hypothesized geographical settings/models of the Book of Mormon, such as MesoAmerica, or otherwise around the time of A.D. 33-34? Here is a list of some of the things that there should be some evidence for: Some of the notable features include new mountains, burned cities, sunken cities, demolished cities. In some areas (lands Northward) the destruction was so great that the "whole face of the land was changed". Are there any relatively new mountains in the surrounding areas, for example? Is there any evidence of a mountain being created in a few days, ever in history? The youngest mountain range in the America's that I know of is the Sierra Nevada range, which does reach Mexico, but that is definitely not only 2,0000 years old. If this event happened, we would not expect to find a single city or highways older than A.D. 34-35 that did not receive significant damage to it. However, in MesoAmerica we find many, many fairly well preserved cities dating back as far as 2000-1000 BC. How is that possible? Why aren't there more crumbled cities in the area? How could these ancient cities be preserved so well given such an event? Any evidence of a potential volcanic event around that time, causing a mist of darkness? MesoAmerica is littered with volcanoes, many of them active since it straddles tectonic plate boundaries. Many of these are of the explosive variety that produce pyroclastic flows... (think mount St Helens as opposed to nice runny Hawaii volcanoes) These are the varieties that can also form a mountain or destroy one during single eruption events. They also form massive outpourings of ash that may darken a landscape and encase it in ash. There are some large eruptive sequences dated to around the time of Christ and some significant damage to infrastructure. There are some complexes encased in lava flows. Most of the events described in 3 Nephi 8 confirm to what occurs in a pyroclastic eruptive sequence. 4
Calm Posted August 21, 2020 Posted August 21, 2020 3 hours ago, Duncan said: correct me if I am wrong but a Dr. Bart Kowallis of BYU did work in this stuff years ago, i'm too lazy though to look it up though😴 https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3240&context=byusq 4
rodheadlee Posted August 21, 2020 Posted August 21, 2020 There is Mayan ruins at the bottom of Lake Atitlan in Guatemala. The city is called Samabaj. 4
Popular Post Robert F. Smith Posted August 21, 2020 Popular Post Posted August 21, 2020 3 hours ago, pogi said: Much has been discussed about the evidences for the historicity of the Book of Mormon, but I have not really heard much discussion surrounding 3 Nephi 8. This seems to have been a significant and major event that would have left some evidence of massive destruction, geologically and otherwise. Is there any such evidence supporting such an event in any of the hypothesized geographical settings/models of the Book of Mormon, such as MesoAmerica, or otherwise around the time of A.D. 33-34?.................................. Mesoamerica is one of the most geologically active areas in the world, and there is plenty of volcanism and earthquakes to keep the populace there occupied: Bart J. Kowallis, “In the Thirty and Fourth Year: A Geologist’s View of the Great Destruction in 3 Nephi,” BYU Studies, 37/3 (1997-1998):136-190, online at https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/thirty-and-fourth-year-geologists-view-great-destruction-3-nephi . Payson D. Sheets, “Armageddon to the Garden of Eden: Explosive Volcanic Eruptions and Societal Resilience in Ancient Middle America,” Univ of Colorado, Aug 22, 2008, online at https://www.colorado.edu/anthropology/sites/default/files/attached-files/armageddon.pdf . Payson D. Sheets, ed., Archeology and Volcanism in Central America: The Zapotitán Valley of El Salvador (Austin: Univ of Texas Press, 1983). Payson D. Sheets, et al., “Prehistory and Volcanism in the Arenal Area, Costa Rica,” Journal of Field Archaeology, 18/4 (1991):445-465, online at https://doi.org/10.1179/009346991791549112 . Jerry D. Grover, Jr., Geology of the Book of Mormon (2014), online at https://archive.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/geology-book-mormon . 9
mrmarklin Posted August 21, 2020 Posted August 21, 2020 (edited) There is a sunken city off the coast in Mexico. It’s a big tourist attraction. It’s near Cozumel. Edited August 21, 2020 by mrmarklin 4
mrmarklin Posted August 21, 2020 Posted August 21, 2020 (edited) In 1943 volcano Parícutin was born in Mexico. New enough? Just sayin’. There’s plenty of evidence to lend credence to the BoM accounts. BTW I have been to the church that is mostly buried. Very interesting. Edited August 21, 2020 by mrmarklin 3
Tacenda Posted August 21, 2020 Posted August 21, 2020 (edited) The topic reminds me of this guy. And it probably mentions on the website that Ferguson was given a fund from the church to find evidence of BoM lands. I wonder what's become of John Sorenson's work. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/01/how-mormon-lawyer-transformed-archaeology-mexico-and-ended-losing-his-faith Edited August 21, 2020 by Tacenda
Popular Post strappinglad Posted August 21, 2020 Popular Post Posted August 21, 2020 Lawyers are renowned for their geological and archeological skills, Tacenda . I personally walked through most of Guatemala City. In it there are massive splits in the earth with steep sides and very deep. People live all the way down inside the Barrancos and it is a very dangerous place to venture. I wonder how those steep ravines got there. It's like the earth just opened up. Google earth mapping should help show the scene. I also visited the site of an abandoned hotel built on a cliff overlooking a dead black cone of a volcano that arose in a farmer's field. It just started one day and kept going for years so some enterprising guy decided that it would be a great tourist spot so he built a hotel across the valley from it. Shortly after the hotel was built , the volcano stopped erupting. OOPS!! I can testify that Central America is , let's just say, unstable. 5
Popular Post Hamba Tuhan Posted August 21, 2020 Popular Post Posted August 21, 2020 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Tacenda said: The topic reminds me of this guy. And it probably mentions on the website that Ferguson was given a fund from the church to find evidence of BoM lands. It doesn't, actually. It specifically states that he raised funds from private donors in the beginning: 'Ferguson contributed thousands himself and raised funds from wealthy Mormons and the audiences of his lectures about Book of Mormon geography'. It then mentions that 'in 1954, LDS authorities granted NWAF $250,000 for 5 years of work' but does not include that it was 'to find evidence of BoM lands'. Quote I wonder what's become of John Sorenson's work. If you're interested, here's Sorenson on Ferguson in 2011: Quote [Biographer Stan] Larson implies that Ferguson was one of the "scholars and intellectuals in the Church" and that "his study" was conducted along the lines of reliable scholarship in the "field of archaeology." Those of us with personal experience with Ferguson and his thinking knew differently. He held an undergraduate law degree but never studied archaeology or related disciplines at a professional level, although he was self-educated in some of the literature of American archaeology. He held a naive view of "proof," perhaps related to his law practice where one either "proved" his case or lost the decision; compare the approach he used in his simplistic lawyerly book One Fold and One Shepherd. His associates with scientific training and thus more sophistication in the pitfalls involving intellectual matters could never draw him away from his narrow view of "research." (For example, in April 1953, when he and I did the first archaeological reconnaissance of central Chiapas, which defined the Foundation's work for the next twenty years, his concern was to ask if local people had found any figurines of "horses," rather than to document the scores of sites we discovered and put on record for the first time.) His role in "Mormon scholarship" was largely that of enthusiast and publicist, for which we can be grateful, but he was neither scholar nor analyst. Ferguson was never an expert on archaeology and the Book of Mormon (let alone on the book of Abraham, about which his knowledge was superficial). He was not one whose careful "study" led him to see greater light, light that would free him from Latter-day Saint dogma, as Larson represents. Instead he was just a layman, initially enthusiastic and hopeful but eventually trapped by his unjustified expectations, flawed logic, limited information, perhaps offended pride, and lack of faith in the tedious research that real scholarship requires. The negative arguments he used against the Latter-day Saint scriptures in his last years display all these weaknesses. Larson, like others who now wave Ferguson's example before us as a case of emancipation from benighted Mormon thinking, never faces the question of which Tom Ferguson was the real one. Ought we to respect the hard-driving younger man whose faith-filled efforts led to a valuable major research program, or should we admire the double-acting cynic of later years, embittered because he never hit the jackpot on, as he seems to have considered it, the slot-machine of archaeological research? I personally prefer to recall my bright-eyed, believing friend, not the aging figure Larson recommends as somehow wiser. Edited August 21, 2020 by Hamba Tuhan 6
rodheadlee Posted August 21, 2020 Posted August 21, 2020 33 minutes ago, Tacenda said: The topic reminds me of this guy. And it probably mentions on the website that Ferguson was given a fund from the church to find evidence of BoM lands. I wonder what's become of John Sorenson's work. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/01/how-mormon-lawyer-transformed-archaeology-mexico-and-ended-losing-his-faith Have you read Mormon's Codex? That would probably answer your question. 1
Tacenda Posted August 21, 2020 Posted August 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: Have you read Mormon's Codex? That would probably answer your question. No, we had a lengthy thread about it on this board awhile back. His son posted. I didn't buy the book, but I'm sure it was well researched.
Hamba Tuhan Posted August 21, 2020 Posted August 21, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: I didn't buy the book, but I'm sure it was well researched. I read it when I lived in America. I found it interesting, but I remain unconvinced. But then I've never found any attempt to geographically situate the Book of Mormon narrative intellectually satisfying so far. Edited August 21, 2020 by Hamba Tuhan 3
CV75 Posted August 21, 2020 Posted August 21, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, pogi said: Some of the notable features include new mountains, burned cities, sunken cities, demolished cities. In some areas (lands Northward) the destruction was so great that the "whole face of the land was changed". Are there any relatively new mountains in the surrounding areas, for example? Is there any evidence of a mountain being created in a few days, ever in history? The youngest mountain range in the America's that I know of is the Sierra Nevada range, which does reach Mexico, but that is definitely not only 2,0000 years old. If this event happened, we would not expect to find a single city or highways older than A.D. 34-35 that did not receive significant damage to it. However, in MesoAmerica we find many, many fairly well preserved cities dating back as far as 2000-1000 BC. How is that possible? Why aren't there more crumbled cities in the area? How could these ancient cities be preserved so well given such an event? Any evidence of a potential volcanic event around that time, causing a mist of darkness? I think the "relative" (and subjective) nature of these descriptions allows for limited, small-scale and currently unidentifiable (or unaccepted) events and effects. Although we have some good evidences offered in the posts above. Edited August 21, 2020 by CV75
pogi Posted August 21, 2020 Author Posted August 21, 2020 For me, one of the most curious and notable events in 3 Nephi 8 is this: Quote 10 And the earth was carried up upon the city of aMoronihah, that in the place of the city there became a great bmountain. It might help to identify the general area of where Moronihah is thought to be in a MesoAmerican model. Any ideas? Is it in the land northward or southward, or elsewhere? Once we narrow down the general area, it should be too hard to identify a great mountain, large enough to encompass an entire city which is only 2,000 years old, and was thought to be created in a matter of hours. What kind of geological event could create a "great" mountain "upon" a city within a matter of 3 hours? I can't think of anything like that ever being described by what we know of geological forces. A massive plate tectonic event could fit the description with earth being carried upon a city (one plate sinking below, and pushing up another plate), but we all know that great mountains are created over millions of years and not in 3 hours with plate tectonics, and such an event would create a mountain range along the plate and not an isolated mountain. I can't think of a mountain range in MesoAmerica that is only 2,000 years old. The only other option that I can think of is a volcanic event. This seems to be problematic too though as volcanoes of that size are created over a period of 10's of thousand of years by a combination of the earth bulging and thousands of eruptions. A single eruptive event could not create a "great mountain" where there was not one before. So what do y'all think? Is it a plate tectonic event or a volcanic event that created a "great" mountain large enough to cover an entire city in a matter of 3 hours? MesoAmerica is relatively a small geographic area, it should't be too hard to identify such a "great mountain" that emerged 2,000 years ago from a single massive and unprecedented geological event. Anyone care to take a stab at their best bet? Which mountain could this passage be referring too?
pogi Posted August 21, 2020 Author Posted August 21, 2020 13 hours ago, gav said: These are the varieties that can also form a mountain or destroy one during single eruption events. Can you give me a reference that explains how a single eruptive event could create a mountain great enough to encompass an entire city? Any geological evidence of such a historical event?
Tacenda Posted August 21, 2020 Posted August 21, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, pogi said: For me, one of the most curious and notable events in 3 Nephi 8 is this: It might help to identify the general area of where Moronihah is thought to be in a MesoAmerican model. Any ideas? Is it in the land northward or southward, or elsewhere? Once we narrow down the general area, it should be too hard to identify a great mountain, large enough to encompass an entire city which is only 2,000 years old, and was thought to be created in a matter of hours. What kind of geological event could create a "great" mountain "upon" a city within a matter of 3 hours? I can't think of anything like that ever being described by what we know of geological forces. A massive plate tectonic event could fit the description with earth being carried upon a city (one plate sinking below, and pushing up another plate), but we all know that great mountains are created over millions of years and not in 3 hours with plate tectonics, and such an event would create a mountain range along the plate and not an isolated mountain. I can't think of a mountain range in MesoAmerica that is only 2,000 years old. The only other option that I can think of is a volcanic event. This seems to be problematic too though as volcanoes of that size are created over a period of 10's of thousand of years by a combination of the earth bulging and thousands of eruptions. A single eruptive event could not create a "great mountain" where there was not one before. So what do y'all think? Is it a plate tectonic event or a volcanic event that created a "great" mountain large enough to cover an entire city in a matter of 3 hours? MesoAmerica is relatively a small geographic area, it should't be too hard to identify such a "great mountain" that emerged 2,000 years ago from a single massive and unprecedented geological event. Anyone care to take a stab at their best bet? Which mountain could this passage be referring too? Moronihah is Captain Moroni's son. So a city named after him. Does that give any clues? Or maybe you already knew that, I'm thinking yes. I didn't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moronihah Got this hit: https://sites.google.com/site/bomgeography/internal-map/new-world-commentary/m/moronihah Edited August 21, 2020 by Tacenda
pogi Posted August 21, 2020 Author Posted August 21, 2020 12 hours ago, rodheadlee said: There is Mayan ruins at the bottom of Lake Atitlan in Guatemala. The city is called Samabaj. The age of this city actually fits the timeline in 3 Nephi 8 fairly closely (around 2,000 years ago). That could definitely fit the bill. The city was thought to be an island and a major cataclysmic event caused the water level to rise and cover the city. This is thought to be the first city in Guatemala and one of the most important cities and religious centers. Any ideas on what Book of Mormon city it could be. It sounds like a rather significant city, but I can't think of any major Book of Mormon cities built on an island in a lake. https://www.columbusluxurytravel.com/post/2017/08/02/the-great-city-in-lake-atitl-25c3-25a1n#:~:text=Why%3F,be over 2%2C000 years old.
pogi Posted August 21, 2020 Author Posted August 21, 2020 (edited) 13 hours ago, mrmarklin said: There is a sunken city off the coast in Mexico. It’s a big tourist attraction. It’s near Cozumel. Any info about the age of the city and when it sunk? If we could tie multiple cities to a single timeline and cataclysmic event around the year 33-34 A.D., that would be significant. Edited August 21, 2020 by pogi
rodheadlee Posted August 21, 2020 Posted August 21, 2020 14 minutes ago, pogi said: For me, one of the most curious and notable events in 3 Nephi 8 is this: It might help to identify the general area of where Moronihah is thought to be in a MesoAmerican model. Any ideas? Is it in the land northward or southward, or elsewhere? Once we narrow down the general area, it should be too hard to identify a great mountain, large enough to encompass an entire city which is only 2,000 years old, and was thought to be created in a matter of hours. What kind of geological event could create a "great" mountain "upon" a city within a matter of 3 hours? I can't think of anything like that ever being described by what we know of geological forces. A massive plate tectonic event could fit the description with earth being carried upon a city (one plate sinking below, and pushing up another plate), but we all know that great mountains are created over millions of years and not in 3 hours with plate tectonics, and such an event would create a mountain range along the plate and not an isolated mountain. I can't think of a mountain range in MesoAmerica that is only 2,000 years old. The only other option that I can think of is a volcanic event. This seems to be problematic too though as volcanoes of that size are created over a period of 10's of thousand of years by a combination of the earth bulging and thousands of eruptions. A single eruptive event could not create a "great mountain" where there was not one before. So what do y'all think? Is it a plate tectonic event or a volcanic event that created a "great" mountain large enough to cover an entire city in a matter of 3 hours? MesoAmerica is relatively a small geographic area, it should't be too hard to identify such a "great mountain" that emerged 2,000 years ago from a single massive and unprecedented geological event. Anyone care to take a stab at their best bet? Which mountain could this passage be referring too? Do the boards archives go back to 2008? Larry Paulsen (sp?) Had a great geography site for the Book of Mormon and there were many great discussions on the subject geography and volcanology . On a different computer I have a whole collection of maps I've saved. I've tried to go to Larry's website but since he passed away I believe it's down. I miss him
Calm Posted August 21, 2020 Posted August 21, 2020 (edited) Poulsen...I will try and find something. Wayback machine had something...at least one of the links went to another archived page. http://web.archive.org/web/20180315193640/http://www.poulsenll.org/bom/index.html our threads mentioning his stuff: https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/44285-book-of-mormon-maps/ Edited August 21, 2020 by Calm 1
Calm Posted August 21, 2020 Posted August 21, 2020 (edited) https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/13145-the-bible-versus-the-book-of-mormon/?do=findComment&comment=402614 A post from Larry above... Another thread discussing geography that mentions his stuff at least briefly (haven’t slept yet, so not reading it myself): https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/40183-question-about-book-of-mormon-geography/ https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/18426-heres-a-photo-of-the-original-cumorah/ Edited August 21, 2020 by Calm 2
rodheadlee Posted August 21, 2020 Posted August 21, 2020 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Calm said: 23 minutes ago, Calm said: https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/13145-the-bible-versus-the-book-of-mormon/?do=findComment&comment=402614 A post from Larry above... Another thread discussing geography that mentions his stuff at least briefly (haven’t slept yet, so not reading it myself): https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/40183-question-about-book-of-mormon-geography/ Thank you, you rock!! Those were the days. I think the critics were a higher quality back then too. I wonder what happened to all those people? Edited August 21, 2020 by rodheadlee
pogi Posted August 21, 2020 Author Posted August 21, 2020 3 hours ago, CV75 said: I think the "relative" (and subjective) nature of these descriptions allows for limited, small-scale and currently unidentifiable (or unaccepted) events and effects. Although we have some good evidences offered in the posts above. The nature of the cataclysmic event described in 3 Nephi 8 couldn't accurately be described as small-scale. It affected the entire scope of geography mentioned in the Book of Mormon and affected every single city with great destruction. Any geographical model of the Book of Mormon should be able to account for this massive event which occurred around 33-34 A.D. Sunken cities should match this timeline, new mountains, and major damage to all cities around that same time-period, with major geological contortion which reshaped the entire landscape in the land Northward - completely wasting the cities in that area. There should be no evidence of well-preserved surviving cities older than 33-34 A.D in the land Northward. Can any model match that? If not, we need to start from scratch.
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