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Here's A Photo Of The Original Cumorah


gaucho

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I'm not sure if this photo has been posted before since I know there has been a lot of discussion on the location of Cumorah and Book of Mormon Geography. According to the mormonsites web site, Cerro de Bernal is the Hill Cumorah spoken of in the Book of Mormon. This is near Ciudad Monte in southern Tamaulipas state in Mexico, somewhat farther north than other proposed sites for the hill. I'd be interested in comments on this location, does it fit the text as an ideal location, or are there problems with this spot?

http://www.mante.com.mx/cerrobernal.htm

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Wow. My comment is going to be completely unscholarly, so take it for what it is: I imagine if I were to see that site as an ancient inhabitant of the Americas, I would see it as awe inspiring, and a likely candidate for a sacred mountain or a natural Temple.

Very cool photo. Thanks for sharing it!

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I'm not sure if this photo has been posted before since I know there has been a lot of discussion on the location of Cumorah and Book of Mormon Geography....

Well, if Hollywood ever needs another location for a re-make of "Close Encounters

of the Third Kind," they'll have a suitable "Devil's Tower" south of the border.

So -- that's the rock on which both the Jaredite and Nephite ethnic ships ran aground,

eh? Them --ites must have had an unholy fascination with ancient volcanic plugs.

d'Unk

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I'm not sure if this photo has been posted before since I know there has been a lot of discussion on the location of Cumorah and Book of Mormon Geography. According to the mormonsites web site, Cerro de Bernal is the Hill Cumorah spoken of in the Book of Mormon. This is near Ciudad Monte in southern Tamaulipas state in Mexico, somewhat farther north than other proposed sites for the hill. I'd be interested in comments on this location, does it fit the text as an ideal location, or are there problems with this spot?

I had code-named Cerro Bernal "Cumorah3" on the Mormon Sites website for several months, thinking it prudent to keep the exact location sort of semi secret so it didn't become over-run with treasure seekers etc. after we revealed a lot of information about it.

However, in the last of his series of articles on the probable location of Ramah Cumorah, which I published in our newsletter yesterday, and on the website today, Dr. Ainsworth chose to reveal the actual location.

http://mormonsites.org/page5.html#series

I have been there and it is indeed a powerful place that would have been known to anyone anciently who passed anywhere near to that hill, such as a trade route from Teotihuacan perhaps. I think the nearest mountains to that hill are about 28 miles away, it dominates a relatively flat plain in all directions.

Many evidences point to that hill being the original Ramah Cumorah but of course the trick is to come up with some kind of scientific proof. We're working on that...

The photo posted above, although I think I may still have it on the Mormon Sites Website, was taken by someone else. I'll post below two photos I took myself. I think I had already posted those photos on this message board but they may have been in one of the threads that the former moderators deleted??

hilldistant.JPG

Cumorah3small.jpg

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Mormon 6:11 And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.

That would have been some rock climb. And they would have been out in the open, silhouetted. No brush to find cover in. And why would they climb up there, so the Lamanites could cut off their retreat from top of a rock? This does not look like it meets Mormon's description.

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I imagine that the high ground at the base of the cliff would have been a good vantage point, and could be described at "the top of the Hill Cumorah" without having required the climb to the summit by Mormon.

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Following Larry Poulsen's instruction, I looked up the word "top" in the 1828 Webster's dictionary to see what it could have meant then.

Top, n. 1. The highest part of any thing; the upper end, edge or extremity; as the top of a tree; the top of a spire; the top of a house; the top of a mountain.

Barely 1/4 of the way up the side does not seem to meet that defintion.

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Following Larry Poulsen's instruction, I looked up the word "top" in the 1828 Webster's dictionary to see what it could have meant then.

Top, n. 1. The highest part of any thing; the upper end, edge or extremity; as the top of a tree; the top of a spire; the top of a house; the top of a mountain.

Barely 1/4 of the way up the side does not seem to meet that defintion.

Too bad we don't know reformed egyptian, we could duke it out over the meaning of the word Mormon used in the origianal manuscript like the Biblical scholars do over the greek and hebrew. :P

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Its a beautiful locale, striking in its upsurgance from from the landscape. And to think that some 2 million fictious souls actually died there. It makes me sad, and relieved at the same time. Sad that so many people died, but relieved that they were only fictious deaths. :P

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Its a beautiful locale, striking in its upsurgance from from the landscape.  And to think that some 2 million fictious souls actually died there.  It makes me sad, and relieved at the same time.  Sad that so many people died, but relieved that they were only fictious deaths.  :P

I noted the wink so I'm not sure which side of an argument you are expressing your faith in.

About the numbers though, we don't know how many Jaredites were killed near Ramah. The battles involved the violent deaths of millions of people but occured over a great distance. Only the final battles took place near the hill.

As for the final Nephite battles, if you study it out it may been as few as 600,000 men, women, and children on both sides who were killed?

But whatever the numbers, both events were indeed sad occasions and reminders that the Book of Mormon was written for our time and comes complete with instructions from the Lord that if our generation fails to heed it's teachings, we are subject to meeting a similar end.

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Following Larry Poulsen's instruction, I looked up the word "top" in the 1828 Webster's dictionary to see what it could have meant then.

Top, n. 1. The highest part of any thing; the upper end, edge or extremity; as the top of a tree; the top of a spire; the top of a house; the top of a mountain.

Barely 1/4 of the way up the side does not seem to meet that defintion.

I don't think we need to necessarily read that literally. Think of Isaiah's prophecy that in the last days the Lord's house will be built in the tops of the mountains. Latter-day prophets have identified the Salt Lake temple as the fulfillment of that prophecy. Yet, the temple is not on the top of the mountains, it is on the valley floor.

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Mormon 6:11 And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.

That would have been some rock climb.  And they would have been out in the open, silhouetted. No brush to find cover in.  And why would they climb up there, so the Lamanites could cut off their retreat from top of a rock?  This does not look like it meets Mormon's description.

Charity, please consider the following before making your final judgment or being so skeptical after only looking at a couple of photos. The first time I set physical eyes on that hill I got goose bumps and the hair almost stood up on my head. It is an awesome sight as it rises solitary and powerfully from the plains, visible for many miles. Photos do not do it justice it seems...

I haven't been to the top of that hill myself, today the access road is guarded by a locked gate and armed security. But I know people who have been to the top.

One side of the hill is an easier climb, not being a cliff as shown in the photo. The top is not just a flat surface, there are many ups and downs and you don't see into each down even from the highest point.

We don't know what caves and chambers may be inside that hill, but it seems that if that is Ramah Cumorah that Mormon had access via a route where he could haul "wagon loads" of heavy plates into a hidden chamber. Of course that could have been done record by record by individuals or lines of people if the access was high up.

Mormon wasn't killed in the battles, so he and his son and maybe a few others may have hid from the Lamanites for long enough to eventually get away, probably to the north. There is lots of water around there, maybe some inside the hill, or someone could have sneaked down at night to get water if need be.

That hill appears to me to offer much "advantage" to those who would be on the high ground, especially in a day when rifles, airplanes, etc. were not available. You know yourself from climbing steep hills that you can get quite exhausted after only going a few yards. So picture an enemy waiting above to do battle with swords, cimeters, and stones.

Mormon is describing a scene where he and "twenty and four of us" (not 10,000) stood on the top of the hill and looked down at the bodies of their people. This was after the Lamanites had returned to their camps, which may have been several miles from the hill.

High on the hill, what in those days did they need to "find cover" from? And anyway, mountains have numerous rocks and crevices etc. to hide behind. Today one side of the hill is dense jungle with snakes and possibly jaguars, but we don't know what it was like 1600 years ago.

I think they would have climbed to the top to observe what was happening on the battle field in all directions, and to mourn their loss.

We know for certain, at the right Ramah Cumorah, that there were places inside the hill to hide a large amount of records. So why not hide a few people for as long as needed to eventually make their escape and leave the records behind in the care of the Lord, which is where they are today, guarded in His own ways, until it is the right time for them to come forth?

I just don't see the problems you are concerned about Charity...

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Cumorah3 says--

"I haven't been to the top of that hill myself, today the access road is guarded by a locked gate and armed security. But I know people who have been to the top."

Why is there so much security on that hill now? How big is the hill? Thanks

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cool..we just need to go excavate and find stuff..problem solved

There is a government problem with professionals "excavating." But the major problem is not finding stuff, it's "proving" stuff.

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cool..we just need to go excavate and find  stuff..problem solved

There is a government problem with professionals "excavating." But the major problem is not finding stuff, it's "proving" stuff.

Yes, but "finding stuff" is a good start.

And, based upon that picture, maybe we should start referring to it as "Outcropping Cumorah."

cool.gif

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Following Larry Poulsen's instruction, I looked up the word "top" in the 1828 Webster's dictionary to see what it could have meant then.

Top, n. 1. The highest part of any thing; the upper end, edge or extremity; as the top of a tree; the top of a spire; the top of a house; the top of a mountain.

Barely 1/4 of the way up the side does not seem to meet that defintion.

Some time ago I sarted a poll about three Hill Cumorah possibilities.

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=14826&hl=

Larry P

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cool..we just need to go excavate and find  stuff..problem solved

There is a government problem with professionals "excavating." But the major problem is not finding stuff, it's "proving" stuff.

Yes, but "finding stuff" is a good start.

And, based upon that picture, maybe we should start referring to it as "Outcropping Cumorah."

cool.gif

Not an outcroping, in the usual sense -- but an exposed volcanic plug, much like

the scenic "Devil's Tower" in Wyoming.

Hardly the place to fight a tremendous, civilization-ending battle.

But, if the Living Prophet will venture a "This is the Place!" I will fall into line and

give the matter more serious consideration.

UD

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Does it meet the criteria of being in a land of many waters?

I imagine there are many hills and mountains that are surrounded by plains that would be good for combat, but right now it's a crap shoot as to which one might meet all the requirements.

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Mormon 6:11 And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.

That would have been some rock climb.

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Does it meet the criteria of being in a land of many waters?

I imagine there are many hills and mountains that are surrounded by plains that would be good for combat, but right now it's a crap shoot as to which one might meet all the requirements.

It meets a whole lot of criteria. But you can read all about it if you care to:

http://mormonsites.org/page5.html#series

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I think Cerro Bermal is a reasonable candidate but it is not the only possibility. In the same area of the coastal plane, there is another imposing solitary outcropping. It is somewhant larger than Cerro Bernal and has at least 5 rivers located on its slopes. It has a central valley, protected on three sides by higher peaks and appears to me to meet the requirement of a place where Mormon might have an advantage over the Lamanites.

I respect your awesome scholarship Larry.

If Bernal turns out to be a dry hole (which I don't think it will) we may move on to your candidate next. :P

But I'm still waiting for the pros to tell me what to look for (other than wagon loads of Nephite records) that would be sufficiently convincing to get them interested in joining us in the fields around Bernal.

One scholar told me that it might even be possible to reconstruct some of the battles if we can get enough evidence unearthed.

But that of course is going to have to wait for credentialed professionals to become involved. If they don't, everything is quickly labelled "fake."

Why won't BYU engage in this search for physical evidences of Nephites in the Americas? A quick read of many threads on this board points out the intense interest that search would have for those who refuse to do what it takes to get a spiritual testimony of the Book of Mormon and abide by its precepts.

So what, if we come up with some dry holes in the first few years? It certainly won't shake my testimony. I'm not looking to archaeology to somehow "prove" the Book of Mormon is true, I already know that.

What I'm looking for is a much greater knowledge of the people themselves who lived out their lives to bring to us in our time that splendid second testament of Jesus Christ.

What would happen if BYU focused all of its pertinent resources on finding physical evidences of Nephites in the Americas??

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I think Cerro Bermal is a reasonable candidate but it is not the only possibility. In the same area of the coastal plane, there is another imposing solitary outcropping. It is somewhant larger than Cerro Bernal and has at least 5 rivers located on its slopes. It has a central valley, protected on three sides by higher peaks and appears to me to meet the requirement of a place where Mormon might have an advantage over the Lamanites.

I am sorrry I dont have any actual photographs, after all I really dont want to get out of my armchair but here is a view of it using Google Earth.

tepetsmall.jpgtepetzintla.jpg

Larry P

I did a quick search. Could this be the area you are referring to? La Sierra de Otontepec?

http://mx.geocities.com/gverab1/sierra_de_otontepec/

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